quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

I'll have to disagree with that one Allan. Deer....yes. Pigs....NO!! If you shoot a big (200+ lbs) boar that is mature from a broadside angle, I'm willing to bet a .30-30 bullet will not penetrate the shield. If you shoot him in the head, that's another story, but you can't expect a novice beginning hunter to make head shots on a regular basis.

You are prepared to bet that a 170-grain bullet from a 30-30 at reasonable range will not get into the boiler room of a 200 pound hog?

I don't have the pictures to keep the bs flag from flying. I have killed 2 pigs in excess of 300lbs with a 30-30. The 170 flatnose at around 1900fps one pill apiece. The first taken at 15 yds another piggy at 67 yds. However this was not my first rifle nor was it my first hunting experience. I like the 30-30. I also like the 6.5x55 for nilgai with a 160gr rn. If your buddy wants a 30-30 by all means let him buy and shoot with confidence. If your experiences are sooooo much superior why don't you offer your services to accompany him on his first nilgai hunt as a backup only.
I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH AS A BACKUP ONLY!!! Do not shoot unless his nilgai is 300 yds away and he can no longer get a shot off. Then you will prove the superiority of a 30-06, 300mag, whatever.

Be forewarned.....If he shoots that nilgai in the neck under 100yds, your dentist is going to give you a strange look when you try to explain how all the crow feathers got stuck in your teeth.

Andy B

About a year ago I watched a black bear hunt on outdoor channel. hunter used a 30-30. shot was about 60 yards. hunt took place in either BC or Alaska. bear took off after a perfect shot, right behind the shoulder. bear ran into the thick brush, but can't remember how far. if I recall, they found it the next morning.

I thought about booking a hunt with the outfitter and talked with him about that show. He said had he known the hunter was going to be using a 30-30 he would have told him no.

I replied that the bear didn't make it far and it killed it just fine it seemed. Outfitter said this was correct but he just prefers something with more juice.

I'm the same way really. I know full well the 30-30 is a very capable caliber for a lot of game within it's reasonable limits. I just don't like it.

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

"I'll have to disagree with that one Allan. Deer....yes. Pigs....NO!! If you shoot a big (200+ lbs) boar that is mature from a broadside angle, I'm willing to bet a .30-30 bullet will not penetrate the shield. If you shoot him in the head, that's another story, but you can't expect a novice beginning hunter to make head shots on a regular basis."



I'm pretty sure this is the biggest load of shit I've read on this forum.

I happen to think the 170 grain Nosler Partition 30-30 bullet wll do some serious damage to any animal it hits.

It has worked just fine for 115 years

quote:

Originally posted by The Slug:
Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

"I'll have to disagree with that one Allan. Deer....yes. Pigs....NO!! If you shoot a big (200+ lbs) boar that is mature from a broadside angle, I'm willing to bet a .30-30 bullet will not penetrate the shield. If you shoot him in the head, that's another story, but you can't expect a novice beginning hunter to make head shots on a regular basis."



I'm pretty sure this is the biggest load of shit I've read on this forum.

Well I'm sorry you feel this way.....but I firmly believe that if you shot a 300 lb. MATURE boar, it wouldn't penetrate. I know for a fact that a .243 bullet wont. Read my reply about the boar on the "Who has witnessed game shot with an inadequate cartridge" thread. Here it is, for your convenience:

"I didn't witness it but have heard the story counless times from my dad. When he was guiding on a ranch in Mississippi in the early 80's.....he had a client using a .243 for deer, which was fine. However, my dad knew this property like the back of his hand and the blind this guy was hunting in was visited by a HUGE boar hog nearly every evening. My dad told the guy to make sure he didn't shoot that boar with that .243, because it's not enough gun. The guy said, "Oh no, I wouldn't even think about doing that. I'm only hunting for a good buck."

My dad was in a stand not too far away that afternoon, and heard a shot from the guy's stand. He figured he had shot a nice buck, so my dad went to pick the guy up. When my dad got there, the guy was grinning ear-to-ear and hollered...."Man, I just shot the biggest damn hog I've ever seen". My dad was not happy, that's for sure. Luckily my dad was carrying a S&W .44 mag, so they started following up the wounded pig.....which, of course, found the biggest thickest briar patch on the ranch to lay up in.

As my dad and the idiot hunter were tracking the boar, he busted out of the thicket and charged my dad and he put two 240 gr. JHP's in the boar's head at approximately 7 and 3 yards respectively. When they got it back to camp (and probably after my dad changed his underwear), they cleaned it and weighed it. The boar was 385 lbs. My dad said the gristle "shield" that covered the boar's front half was 2 inches thick. The guy's bullet was perfectly behind the shoulder, probably would have been a heart shot, except that it didn't penetrate the shield.

*Suggestion: don't shoot a hog much over 100 lbs. with a .243, unless it's in the head/neck."


If you don't believe hogs can really be that tough, then you have obviously never shot a big, old boar.

So it was 200 pounds and a 30-30. Now based on one incident it is 385 and a .243?

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
So it was 200 pounds and a 30-30. Now based on one incident it is 385 and a .243?

No.....I said 200+ lbs.....which is OVER 200 lbs. And the reason I'm referring to a .243 is because it has similar penetrating power to a .30-30, not the same I know....but similar.

The point is.....ANY MATURE wild boar (not a sow) will have a THICK gristle shield. A 300 lb. boar that's only 2 years old will be pretty easy to kill, but a 300 lb. boar that's 6 years old is NOT!

How bout this.....anybody who would like to take the risk using a .30-30 and average "Wal-Mart bullets", go ahead and shoot a big old boar with a 2 inch thick shield and test my theory.

And just for other people's reference, in case they aren't familiar with wild hog anatomy. A boar's shield doesn't stop at his shoulder. Sometimes, the shield can cover all of the vital organs, all the way past the liver.

So now it is Wal-Mart bullets too? What does that mean? Core-lokt or if Wal-Mart has Federal Premium is that okay?

I like big holes because the exit bleeds better but you started out by saying you would bet a 30-30 on any over 200 pounds boar would not get into the boiler room.

All this malarkey sounds to me like Mr.Eland Slayer has never hunted with a 30-30. He was probably convinced at an early impressionable age by his "hunting uncle" that the 30-30 is useless for anything over a yearling whitetail and that he should get (enter your favorite caliber) magnum. I have seen quite a few good hunting bullets available at Wally World and in 30-30. If that 243 had a Nosler partition or a Barnes X, or a GSC HV the story might have been different and ElandSlayer would be trying to convince his buddy to get one.
SCREW the 243! Get a 6.5x55 military rifle shoot 160gr round nose and don't look back! Chances are you will never recover a bullet!

Threads like this one really irritate me!

ElandSlayer let your buddy buy whatever he wants. Help him by going with him to practice. Make sure he is intimately familiar with his choice and the distance that it limits him to. Don't bad mouth his choice of rifle. He may come to love the limitations and learn better woodsmanship skills necessary for using a cartridge like the 30-30. A skill not so necessary with the magnum-kill-it-a-mile-away-guns!
I know a gentleman in Aransas Pass that harvested 15 elk in 17 years. Every one a one shot kill, with a 30-30. All shots under 40yds.
Close up the 30-30 is lethal. If you can see the ticks on the nilgai(without a scope)shoot it in the neck and it dies.

Maybe you with all your experience will help him handload cartridges with premium bullets to give him all the advantage he can get. DON'T TRY TO HOT LOAD IT! 1900-2100fps works fine.

Andy B

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
...but a 30-30 will kill pigs and deer just as dead
as anything else will.
AD

I'll have to disagree with that one Allan. Deer....yes. Pigs....NO!! If you shoot a big (200+ lbs) boar that is mature from a broadside angle, I'm willing to bet a .30-30 bullet will not penetrate the shield. If you shoot him in the head, that's another story, but you can't expect a novice beginning hunter to make head shots on a regular basis.

Wow this is embarrassing.

Okay.....since everyone seems to think I'm a complete idiot, would someone please elaborate why? How on earth is a .30-30 using LEVERevolution 160 gr. ammo (since that is what my friend said he was going to use if he bought the gun) supposed to penetrate 2 inches of solid gristle/cartilidge, which is probably tougher to penetrate than bone?

If a .243 can't do it (and I know for a fact that it can't).....why would a .30-30 be able to do it? This is a serious question......not a rhetorical one.

quote:

If a .243 can't do it (and I know for a fact that it can't)..

First, you are making an assumption about a rifle/cartridge combination based on one anecdote. Even if you had more stories, I am sure they have taught you in college that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Second, you change the rules every time you ask the question. You originally said a 30-30 could not get through the on-side shoulder of a 200+ pound boar. If someone answers you you say -- but I meant a 300-lb boar, then a "mature" 300-pound boar, then "cheap ammo," then "160-grain lever revolution." Now we have to measure the shield too to see if it is 2 inches.

Try to understand that you made a blanket statement that many here find hard to swallow, and then changed it around constantly to try to substantiate your original point, all because your father told you a story about a 385 pound pig and a .243. Just because that rifle/cartridge did not penetrate on that pig does not mean that you could not kill one with it, or indeed with an entirely different combination as you posited in your statement.

Perhaps you should just admit you were unsure of what you stated?

While I do not agree that the shield on a boar is tougher than bone (what tests did you do on that?) I do prefer larger calibers on hogs, not because the smaller ones cannot penetrate but because I want a large exit that is harder to plug up with fat.

Charles,

I never once changed my story. From the very first post about shooting a boar with a .30-30 and it not penetrating.

I said a MATURE boar that is 200+ lbs. (meaning anything over 200 lbs.) The size of the boar doesn't have much to do with the situation....it's more to do with the maturity. A boar that is immature, but huge, still won't have a shield. I caught a little boar (a feral one) that was about 2 days old a few years ago and castrated him. We gave him to my cousin to raise and in 10 months he was over 300 lbs. They slaughtered and ate him. He was a HUGE boar, but extremely immature, so he didn't have a shield.

If you go back and read my posts, I was always consistent. Decribing the boar in question as MATURE and over 200 lbs.

You obviously have experience with hunting wild hogs, so I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to the age of a pig vs. body size.

Bottom line.....ANY MATURE boar will have a shield and will be extremely difficult to penetrate with a .30-30 regardless of the factory load used, unless you're almost point-blank. But what I'm referring to would be a normal hunting scenario.....let's just say 75-125 yard shot.

If I have offended anyone......I apologize, but these are just my views and opinions. I will never advocate the use of a .30-30 on hogs (unless they're very small or you are doing head-shots). Why "sneak by" with the absolute minimum on any animal? To me that is just irresponsible as a sportsman. I've killed many whitetails growing up as a young guy with my .250 Savage, which was my very first deer rifle given to me at age 5. But now I use a .300 WSM for just about every deer I shoot. Why??.....because I ALWAYS get an exit wound.....100% of the time. Same story if I was to go elk hunting....I know it's possible to kill an elk with a well placed chest shot from a .243. However, there's no way I would try that. I want to have plenty of gun.....not necessarily overkill.....but plenty of gun. Just my $0.02

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

If a .243 can't do it (and I know for a fact that it can't)..

First, you are making an assumption about a rifle/cartridge combination based on one anecdote. Even if you had more stories, I am sure they have taught you in college that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Second, you change the rules every time you ask the question. You originally said a 30-30 could not get through the on-side shoulder of a 200+ pound boar. If someone answers you you say -- but I meant a 300-lb boar, then a "mature" 300-pound boar, then "cheap ammo," then "160-grain lever revolution." Now we have to measure the shield too to see if it is 2 inches.

Try to understand that you made a blanket statement that many here find hard to swallow, and then changed it around constantly to try to substantiate your original point, all because your father told you a story about a 385 pound pig and a .243. Just because that rifle/cartridge did not penetrate on that pig does not mean that you could not kill one with it, or indeed with an entirely different combination as you posited in your statement.

Perhaps you should just admit you were unsure of what you stated?

While I do not agree that the shield on a boar is tougher than bone (what tests did you do on that?) I do prefer larger calibers on hogs, not because the smaller ones cannot penetrate but because I want a large exit that is harder to plug up with fat.

Oh, I am not offended. But you did piss off a lot of people who collectively have killed truck loads of game with the 30-30. And as to whether you changed the situation as you went along, well suppose my reading and yours are different.

Tell us again how many boars you personally saw shrug off a .30-30 when hit in the boiler room?

I have heard a lot about how the shield on an old boar can stop a bullet, but my experiance has been different.
I have shot 3 different boars with a 243 and 'walmart' bullets and all three times the shield was not a problem.
These were all boars over the 200 mark and in each case the bullet not only blew through the near side shield but completely penetrated the body cavity and almost penetrated the off side shield as well.
There has been mention of boars with 2 inch thick shields, I am curious as to how big and how old a boar would have to be to havea shield that thick.
I wonder if anyone has actually seen one that thick or simply heard stories about it?

I know for a fact that a 243 will in fact penetrate the shield on a big boar, and I know that a Muzzy broadhead will not only penetrate the shield on a 350 pound boar but still retain enough whack to go ahead and break his spine.

I hear some of these stories and wonder how many people are simply repeating BS from other BS'ers.


I will say this though, I will not condemn Eland slayer for wanting to help his buddy pick a different rifle.
His friend would have enjoyed the 30-30 I am sure, but there would have dang sure have most likely come a day when he would have turned to ES and say why didn't you tell me to buy a different rifle?

I am betting that ES probably knows his friend better than we do.
The obvious answer though is that he needs more than one rifle.
How would a man live with only one rifle anyway??

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
How would a man live with only one rifle anyway??

Amen brother!! Let's end this thread on a happy note.....

Yea OOPS!!!

maybe this thread shoud just end.

Eland Slayer

Has you friend bought his rifle yet? If so what did the get?

No.....he hasn't bought it yet, but I think he's going to get the Vanguard in either .30-06 or 7mm.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
No.....he hasn't bought it yet, but I think he's going to get the Vanguard in either .30-06 or 7mm.

A Vanguard .30-06 would be an excellent all-around rifle for him. Good choice.

No flies on the 7 mag of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
No.....he hasn't bought it yet, but I think he's going to get the Vanguard in either .30-06 or 7mm.

A Vanguard .30-06 would be an excellent all-around rifle for him. Good choice.

No flies on the 7 mag of course.

No flies on a Vanguard at all.
I have two of them, one in 223, and a recently purchased 25-06. Haven't shot the new one yet, but that 223 is VERY accurate. Both rifles came glass bedded at the recoil lug, and barrels were free floating, from the factory.

Don

If he gets a Vanguard in .223 and shoots surplus SS109 penetrators surely they will penetrate the shield even though the 243 and the 30-30 have more umph upclose.

Maybe you can convince your buddy to go ahead and get the 30-30 and get a .375 H&H. All bases covered, everybody happy, end of story, good night!!