Hi All,

It looks likt here is a lot of discussion around about what is the minimum caliber each would choose for bears, elk, antelope and so on.

Here in the UK each licence holder is allowed a rifle of given caliber for the use in certains circumstances.

For example some certificates would say that a 308 is too big for use on foxes, and so if you take a fox with it while deer stalking, you are breaking the law.

By the same Token, 243win is a legal deer caliber for all domestic wild species. However you are not allowed to shoot Boar with them... And rightly so.

My question is whether in the US (or wherever you happen to live/hunt) doo you have similar restrictions?

Obviously if a deer is sat 10 feet below you while sat in a high seat you could plant one in the top of his head and drop himlike a sack of potatoes but that would not be legal here.

FB

Here in Oregon, if you are armed with a .243 of some sort on up you're legal for all big game, from blacktail deer thru elk. You may use a .223 Rem. or .22-250 for deer.

Personally, I'd like to see a 243 Win. minimum for blacktail deer and pronghorn, and a .270 Win. minimum for mule deer, sheep, goats, elk, and blackbear.

AD

Texas law prohibits the use of "rimfires" for deer (the only huntable native big game animal), otherwise there are no caliber restrictions. Of course there are no longer any rimfires of greater than .22 caliber available, but describing the minimum potency of a hunting cartridge by its ignition system is an irrational way to do it. However, you must remember that this comes from the same Legislature that passed a bill prohibiting "sexy cheerleading".

A few states (Wyoming among them, I think) use ".23 Caliber" as the minimum for "big game". While this is perhaps just a little more rational, it hardly passes the reality test: I'd much rather use an "illegal" 5.7x57 with a 1-7 twist barrel and 80 grain bullets @ 3400 fps on pronghorn than a "legal" .25-20 Winchester.

Other states use a minimum muzzle energy, like 1000 ft/lbs, as the standard. Who's going to do the measuring? And besides, it's not the energy at the muzzle that counts, it's the energy at the impact distance, which can be quite different.

Colorado used to describe the physical dimensions of the cartridge case (length) as one criterion. I think they dropped that a few years ago as being nonsense and simply prohibited .22 calibers for big game (also only partially sensical.)

I prefer for the law to be silent in this area and allow hunters to make their own choices (and mistakes). A .25-35 in the hands of a wily old woodsman is much more leathal on an elk than a .300 Weatherby (perhaps loaded with a 110 grain varmint bullet) in the hands of an idiot.

no restrictions in montana; the laws state that it is up to the hunter to match the caliber to the game being hunted. if you are in grizzly country, you might want to go a step farther, of course.

personally, i believe that .243/6mm should be a minimum legal caliber for big game hunting, as it is in wyoming and, i am sure, other states; but that's just me.

quote:

Personally, I'd like to see a 243 Win. minimum for blacktail deer and pronghorn, and a .270 Win. minimum for mule deer, sheep, goats, elk, and blackbear.

AD

And would the 6.5x55 or the .264 Winchester be "illegal" for mule deer? Or are you using the "energy" standard, which would make the 7mm08 illegal for mule deer?

Writing this kind of restriction into the law is full of pitfalls (and is diametrically counter to the "libertarian" instincts of most outdoorsmen). Let's leave it alone, lest we find ourselves being prosecuted for shooting foxes with a .308.

West Virginia has laws dating waaaay back. It's legal during deer gun season to use:
# a rifle using center-fire ammunition
# a rifle using .25 caliber or larger rimfire ammunition
# a muzzleloading rifle with or without scope and muzzleloading pistol of .38 caliber or larger
# a handgun using a straight-walled case of .357 magnum cartridge or larger or a bottle-necked case of .24 caliber or larger. A class A-1 handgun license is required
# a shotgun loaded with solid ball ammunition

It's illegal to use fmj ammo, buckshot, crossbows, full auto ammo, and a few other things I've forgotten...

In the Eastern USA the states are small and each has laws that restrict and are enforced. Since I live in CT and drive to VT often having a "camp" there I must travel thru MA which has the most restrictive laws in the area. For instance we should secure each firearm with a trigger quard and of course it cannot be loaded, within reach etc.

One cannot travel thru the state of NY with a handgun. This law has been on the books forever.

Now if you do make it to the state of VT and still have your gun you can do about anything. VT does not allow the .22 RF for big game hunting however but that's about it. You can carry a handgun there with no permit etc. I did see a road sign in the capitol of Montpeiler reading "Buckshot only for deer in city limits".

In the state of CT there is very little hunting left as there is very little land. The 500 foot rule is the killer. Since nobody wants to live in a city here houses have been built on every piece of land that can be had. Even steep hillsides etc. have houses on them. So even if you can get the required permission to hunt from the landowner his land may be unsuitable. It does not take much and the 500' rule eliminates all land. If you get caught with even a round in your magazine near any such building and this includes sheds etc. you will be arrested.

On the positive side in CT, if there is one, there are a lot of deer here and they are nice ones and best of all a 6mm or larger rifle can be used on ten acres or more if the landowner allows it. There are not many of these left.

Most gun owners here go to some range and shoot 9mm's or AR's and pretend something or other. That's about all you can do here unless your a persistant old timer.

In the USA we can own as many guns as we want and in general shoot whatever we want with them with some restrictions. For instance, as a general statement, I can own all the .375 H&H's I can afford and shoot rabbits or woodchucks with the cannons. There are some entire states however that restrict rifle use. Lots of laws. It's the main business here. We are a nation of laws.

This is just some of the detail that I have to keep track of.

min 23 caliber in Alberta

Stonecreek, yes, I suppose I should have listed 6.5 as my minimum for mule deer, etc. Your .264 Win. Mag. example is a fine cartridge, no question about it. I'll stand by the rest of my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, any 6mm is too small for elk, legal or not..........

AD

Fallow, here in the USA, the individual states make their own laws as to what can & can not be used. Some states in the east & midwest do not allow any rifle hunting for deer size game, shotgun, or handgun only (muzzle loading rifles are allowed). Most states restrict "big game hunting to .243 & up, some allow .22 centerfires (a mistake IMO). Varmints can usually be shot w/ anything at hand. Although some states like Colorado do not allow deer calibers for hunting varmints during the deer season unless you have a license for deer. It pays to do some studying before you set out to hunt another state.

FB, Actually in addition to a host of state laws, at least one state in the eastern US has county restrictions on what firearms may be used for deer. I hunt in one very open Virginia county where rifles are prohibitted for deer. ..only shotguns allowed. Several eastern states have also recently approved .223 for ‘deer’ (whitetail and sika which are actually elk smaller than whitetail). I think that sooo wrong. I know it can be done, but I strongly suspect most of the people shooting deer with a .223 lack the proper bullets and/or self-discipline to do it ethically. In 2004 Virginai treated the small number of elk in the state as deer so I suppose it would have been legal to riddle one with a .223. I don’t know if anyone actually killed an elk in Virginia in 2004. Maybe someone who hasn’t emmigrated may know?

Thanks for the answers guys, It's always interesting to know thiis stuff.

Stonecreek,

On the foxes, I am actually allowed to shoot anything with my rifles that I deem suitable, and I also have what we call an open certificate which means the land does not need to be approved for a caliber prior to me shooting on it. So I always use my 308 for foxes these days to gaini experience with the rifle. My friend cannot use his 308 to shoot foxes with me on my land, but he can use my 308!!! It's a minor technicality and the reality is that they are unlikely to ever take issue but that is what the law says.

Regards,
FB

I spoke to my friendly firearms licensing officer about this, and he thought that I am ok to shoot foxes in the daytime with my 7mm rem mag, but if i want to go lamping i need to use the .243ack or .22/250 ack.

Not sure whether I believe him though.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:

By the same Token, 243win is a legal deer caliber for all domestic wild species. However you are not allowed to shoot Boar with them... And rightly so.

FB

FB - there is no LAW against using a 243 on Boar in the UK - they are not part of the deer act so if you were to obtain the correct clause on your certificate you could legaly do so.

There is guidance from the Game Conservancy etc that 270/150gr should be considered a minimum.

quote:

Originally posted by sws:
I spoke to my friendly firearms licensing officer about this, and he thought that I am ok to shoot foxes in the daytime with my 7mm rem mag, but if i want to go lamping i need to use the .243ack or .22/250 ack.

Not sure whether I believe him though.

Technicaly if you only have deer as a use for your 7mmRM then you are comitting an offence by shooting a fox with it regardless of the light conditions.

Thanks that was what I thought. It comes up for renewal in a few months so I will get it changed to include Fox as well.

If only some of those Boar would find there way over to Suffolk.

Has anyone started offering commercial Boar stalking in England yet?

I'm still trying to find someone who can set me up on the Feral Goats, but no luck so far.

Wyoming law states that bison be hunted with a rifle cartridge greater than .270 and such and such foot pounds.

That all other big game be hunted with a rifle cartridge greater than .23 and the same.

A 25-20 has never been legal in Wyoming for anything other than coyotes and other preditors.

Hi 1894,

You are very right. As far as boar are concerned my firearms officer has actually changed the clauses on my certificate to read "Deer, vermin, and Ground Game" which he felt should cover all eventualities including goats.

When I looked this actually applied to my 243win too so it seems you are right I would not be breaking the law. I think the percieved wisdom is that it isn't enough gun though.

I suppose the whole shooting foxes with a deer calibre questionn is similar to having to take out the Eley VIP's and replace them with Eley Forest when a duck comes out on a pheasant drive....


By the way how are the pups?

SWS, I know of a guy that can organise goats in Scotland. Not sure of the prices. It's the top advert. Goat Stalking


FB

quote:

Originally posted by D99:

That all other big game be hunted with a rifle cartridge greater than .23 and the same.

A 25-20 has never been legal in Wyoming for anything other than coyotes and other preditors.

As I understand Wyoming caliber restrictions, they apply only to the diameter of the bullet, which must be of ".23 caliber or greater". A .25-20 Winchester uses a .257" bullet, and thus is legal for big game. If I am wrong about this I will gladly stand corrected.

At any rate, my point is that attempting to regulate good sense by statute is a losing effort, which is why I don't like any kind of restrictions on caliber/energy/projectile/ignition system or other means of attempting to tell hunters what type of arm they should use. A reasonable person will choose his arms well, and choosing for an unreasonable person will do nothing to mitigate his other undesireable proclivities.

What D99 forgot to add about Wyoming's law, is that in addition to having a bore diameter greater than .23, the cartridge must be greater than 2" in overall length when the bullet is seated at a normal depth. This is where the .25-20 gets into trouble...the little 75 grain hot core can't stretch that far!

This whole sort of thing is tough to regulate, with new calibers always coming out I think they did the best they could to draw a line in the sand.

MG

FB,

Thank you for that I will give them a call and see what tehy can do.

Looking forward to harvest as a friend has a lot of Chinese Water Deer and has promised me a couple of nice bucks. Just got to wait for the corn to be cut to be able to see them. Hav eyou heard that Woburn is apparently charging £1,000 for one of these now. Would hate to hear what one of their Peir David would cost.

Hi FB
In Sweden there are 4 different classified categories of hunting rifles
Kl 1 bullet weight 139gr and energy off 2700Joule at 100m
or bullet weight 154gr and energy of 2000Joule at 100m
Kl 2 Bullet weight 50gr and 800 Joule at 100m
Kl 3 Bullet weight 39gr and 200 Joule at 100m
Kl 4 energy when leaving barrel of 150 Joule

Example of cartridges (~minimum)
Kl 1 6,5x55 (with 154gr bullets)
Kl 2 ,222Rem
Kl 3 ,22Mag
Kl 4 22LR

Hunting
1 All species (Moose, boar, bear….)
2 All species exclude kl 1, (i.e. up to Roe deer)
3 All species excluded kl 1 +kl 2 (i.e.Foxes, hares, Capercaillie)
4 All species excluded kl 1+kl 2 + kl 3 (i.e. Rabbits, crows, willow grouse)

Then there can be some special like you are not allowed to hunt willow grouse in some areas with maximum Kl 3 cartridges.

Minimum are foolish and are thought up my people who want to impose their ideas of perfect game cailbers on everybody esle.

Or by goverments to want to have more control of the type of guns owned.

We have limited caliber law in Wis. One can use any center fire of 22 cal or bigger in rifles and in hand guns one can use the same as a long as there is a rifle chamberd for it for big game.

So a 25 acp would be legal in a rifle or in a hangun with a 4 in plus barrel as long as one could prove a rifle is or had been chambered for it. Even with these few restrictions one doesn't not see many whatsome people would call sub caliber for the game size in the feild. Most people know what it takes to kill a deer or bear.

For small game any thing goes from pellet guns on up.

We had no ammo restrictions untill a few years ago untill someone put in a fmj ban for game. That was a move by the anti gunners to give one no reason to own milltary ammo. They can always say you can't hunt with it why to you need it.

I trust no one who trys to regulate the type of guns or ammo I can own under any excuse.

Well, Montana doesn't have a law specifying caliber for big game hunting. The only exception I could find is under the proposed bison hunt regs a bullet of 150gr or larger was specified.

All well and good, almost. I've seen hunters shoot antelope with 22-250 and 223 before Nosler put out the 60 Partition, worked perfectly, sometimes....Even with the 60gr Partition I would have to question the the wisdom of doing this, especially at ranges over 100 yds.

The worst case I have encountered was a fellow out on a moose hunt with Contender in 223. I believe he thought better of it and killed his moose with something a bit larger. Point is, He was out there with a combination that had a ver, very high probability of ending very, very badly for all conscrened, especially the moose.

It's tough to specify a minimum caliber since the users choise of bullet is also a major factor. Would a 243 with 100gr Partitions be a better caliber than a 270 with a 100gr bullet designed for "varmints"?

I recall a client with a 338 using 225 gr. Remington "Core-lokts", when they were really crappy bullets, getting only 8 to 12 inches of penitration on an elk. It died after about 4 perfectly placed shots, foutunately it was open ground and the first shot was at less than 100 yds and the last a bit over 250 as I recall. During the same week another guide told me his client,a young girl, dropped a nice bull, Bang-Flop, with 243 using Partitions.

Now, which is the better elk rifle?

I'm NOT endorsing any laws regualting calilber selection, I just bring this up to illustrate that however well intended, you are at the edge of a big swamp.