I post this similarly on the Reloading forum...

The input of experiences by fellow forum members will go a long way in assisting young shooters who are just now entering the age where they can take the hunter education courses here in Oregon... some of these boys going afield for the first time this fall on youth hunts..

All who would like to share opinions and experiences would be greatly appreciated...

hopefully this will not end up in degrading to arguments which sometimes happens on AR...this is a thread to help young boys, not throw insults...

Thank you for sharing your time and experiences...

A lot of experiences exist on this forum… both some good and some not so good….

But a lot of our fellow forum members bring a lot of experiences to the table…

And the beauty of this forum ( at least most of the time!) is that we can share those experiences with each other…

With that in mind, I would like feed back from those that desire to provide it on the subject of Varmint Style bullets for use on Game the size of deer….

The parameters are though, that the use will be at MV under 2500 fps…Most of these bullets are designed to be explosive at higher velocities, however as the impact velocities decline, so does explosive performance…..

So what I was looking for is experiences with these type of bullets and their lethality on deer sized game… antelope count also…

I have my own experiences, but I wanted to have others share theirs and compare notes….

The whole background or motivation for this exercise is to work up loads in the usual deer sized calibers, 6.5 and up… We all know the less powder and the lighter the bullet, the less recoil the shooter experiences… This aids in shooter confidence by not being afraid of their firearm’s recoil… and also lets them learn to place their shots more easily into vital areas….

Two schools of those on lethality…. Some desire complete penetration and an exit wound to aid in a blood trail…. Others believe more in the bullet expending its energy within the game animal and believe that leads to not needing a blood trail to have to follow because the animal dropped more quickly with more internal damage….Hollow Points and Ballistic tips cater to this school of thought…..

Anyway, experiences appreciated…. Hopefully this will not digress into the all to common name calling debates a few like to participate in….

Your experiences are going toward training of young shooters and getting them use to our sport and passions…. Which runs against the tide in a lot of locales around our country…

Thank you in advance… from seafire and seafire jr.!

Cheers
seafire and seafire jr.

Seafire(s).......

Not sure I exactly fit into your parameters. But I will relate a whitetail, taken by myself. Firearm used was an XP-100 .221 Fireball. The load was 17.5 gr. of IMR-4198 under a Hornady 52 gr. BTHPM. MV was right at 2650 fps. I chose the match bullet because use on 'chucks proved them to be a bit hard in the nose for good, reliable expansion...even at .220 Swift velocities. I assumed this would make for good penetration on medium game. In 6 inches of fresh snow (and all day to track if necessary) I placed one shot into the ribcage of a mature whitetail doe at 80-90 yds. from a solid rest. She ran a small circle in the snow and dropped basically where she had originally stood. 4-5 second lethality.

Hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for.

S10

Seafire
I've been working on the same theory for my son and using reduced loads in a .284 Win ( Ruger M77 flatbolt ) and 130 grain Speer bullets. Last winter he did not get to test this out he had a Cow tag and believe it or not we saw 17 bulls no cows during his hunt.
When I was first readying him for the hunt ( 3 years ago ) he was shooting a .243. In Colorado cow elk tags are 10 times easier to get than a deer tag so I knew cow elk would be his first hunt and I was somewhat reluctant with the .243. My son was becoming an excellent shot and a good Barnes X in the .243 was looking like a cow killing machine but in mid stride the family heirloom .284 came to be and he really wanted to hunt with instead so I looked into the reduced load at first for practice and then as I thought it through I knew a relatively light bullet put into the lungs in a controlled shooting situation would be very lethal and do what we needed it to do. trouble is we were not able to test this on an animal because of all the bulls we saw.
The idea you have is right on the money as far as I'm concerned. You taylor a load that kids can shoot without kicking the snot out of them and use a fairly frangible bullet at semi-sedate velocity in a controlled situation where the kid has a rest and can pick the perfect heart / lung shot and it is assured you will have a happy young hunter and steaks on the table.
I can't tell you how many times I see people recommend 7mm-08's, 270's and .308's to kids with full power loads in a light rifle and I think there is no quicker turn off to a kid to pull that trigger and get belted, however those same guns downloaded to a lighter load and a lighter than normal bullet will be much more fun to shoot and master some accuracy ultimately leading to good shooting skills and a successful hunt.
Some of the bullet weights and cartridges I've thought about are as follows, again loaded to 2300-2400 fps. Ballistic tips hollow points and some soft point spitzers.

7mm-08, .284, .280 using 120 or 130 grain bullets

.270 using 115 grain bullets

.260, 6.5 swede using 100-120 grain bullets

.250 Savage, .257 Roberts, possibly 25/06 using 85-90 grain bullets

.243 or 6mm using 85 grain bullets

Good luck with your valiant endeavor.

Snell,

Actually today, I took out some handloads in a 7 x 57 Ruger 77 Mk 2 to test them...

The loads were 25 grains of SR 4759, CCI Large rifle primers, and the bullets were 100 grain Sierra HPs and 110 grain Speer TNTs...

There is a state forest fairly close to the house and it also started raining when I had a chance to go out to test...

So I went over there and choose some Manzanita trees with branches and trunks in the 6 to 8 inches in diameter range....

At 50 yards, all bullets went thru the wood and left considerable damage on the exit side... turning the wood on each side of the exit hole into what I call toothpicksa good 6 to 10 inches on each side of the exit hole...

My conclusion is that this would easily raise lethal havoc on the lungs and heart area.. I am even confident that these bullet would break bone and keep penetrating...

I'll have to shoot a couple of milk jugs of water to see how they perform in that test, and also just plain old chronograph them and see what kind of velocity I am getting out of the Ruger...

I came back home and reloaded the cases up this time with the same powder charge, and 139 Hornady, 140 grain Rem SPs, and 120 grain Nosler Ballistic tips... and will go out and do some testing on those in the next couple of days...

Before I am thru with the 7 x 57 testing, I will do the same for 140 and 150 grain Ballistic tips, 150 grain and 175 grain Rem SPs, 154 grain SP and 154 grain RN Hornadys,
160 grain Speer SPs and Mag Tips, 175 grain Speer Mag tips and 175 grain Hornady RNs...

The charge will be 25 grains of SR 4759 with each bullet weight...each will generate enough velocity to put a bullet in the vitals on a deer sized animal at 200 yds, with a 3.5 inch zero at 100 yds.... without any site compensation at 200 yds...

Recoil is similar to the recoil of the average 243 factory load, or LESS....

Scope used is a 4 power Simmons whitetail classic if that matters to anyone...

cheers
seafire

You should specify what you mean by "varmint style" bullets. By varmints, I would assume you mean animals from the size of mice up to coyotes. Any bullet meant for big game would kill them. What I would consider varmint style bullets would come in two varieties; solids and hollowpoints. There are also those who consider all bullets below .243 caliber varmint bullets.

As far as antelope and deer are concerned, the bullet has to be able to penetrate adequately. Solids would work though I've never used them for this purpose. I've taken 3 deer with .224 caliber bullets; two with a .22-250 and one with a .222. One of the deer was a 360 yard shot; they all died quickly. I was using Speer 70 grain Semi-Spitzers for the .222 and the .22-250 and achived complete penetration even at 360 yards. The caliber by many would be conidered "varmint" but bullets weren't really varmint bullets.

I've taken 3 antelope with Hornady 158 grain .357 caliber hollow point bullets. The caliber really isn't varmint but some would consider the bullet construction to be. They took care even of the Black Wildebeest.

I've even taken a ground hog and a rabbit with .308 caliber plastic bullets. The ground hog was in a tree and plastic bullets made it safe to shoot straight up near a populated area. It worked fine for the ground hog. The rabbit was a little further away. The bullet produced a huge superficial wound and I had to go into the brush hunting the rabbit.

My concern with varmint bullets on big game would be the bullet fragmenting on hitting heavy bone, not reaching vital organs and letting the animal escape to die a slow death. If you use a "varmint style" bullet on big game, I would personally use a caliber over .224 unless I was using solids. Deer aren't that tough; varmint style bullets with the limitations mentioned above should work fine.

What about a 357 Roberts? Seems like that would be a great first gun for a youngster.

When I was young, I shot a few deer and lope with 87gr V-max out of a 243 at about 2950-3000fps MV.

Two buck antelope one at about 150 yards, the other at about 200. One shot behind the shoulder and that was all she wrote... dropped and kicked once or twice. I was quite impressed. No exit wound nor excessive blood shot. I aslo shot a lope doe as well, that was a neck shot at about 200 yards...

As far as deer go, 3 does and one buck whitetail with the same load. Same results... I did end up having to shoot one doe twice, the first shot was a little low in the chest and she ran about 40 yards and stopped, the second was in the kneck both shots were from about a 150 yards. The other does and bucks were behind the shoulder at rangest from 150-250 yards and that was that, dropped on the spot and again very little blood shot meat...

I also shot 4 whitetail bucks with 85gr Sierra HPBT. All one shot drop on the spot except one, that ran from about 200 yards to about 125 and he got another. Granted he dressed out at 200 pounds so I'm not sure that a 270 or the like would have done much better... He was a hoss...

I've since screwed a 260 barrle on to that 243 and shoot 100gr BT, two deer with it so far, and no complaints... I'd probably still be using the same bullet combo if I still had it as a 243 though.

I shot one buck whitetail with my dads 22-250 as well as one doe. Bullets were of the 55gr Sierra variety and pushed to about 3400fps... Never again either, the doe took two shots in the ribs, and the buck took 4... My dad shot a few lope with it but with diffrent bullets, don't remember what they were right off but they worked like a charm. To be honest though an antlope is probably by far the easiest big game animal to kill. They can't take much in the way of lead...

My son used a 30gr Berger MEF to claim his first game. Under 6gr of unique it chronoed 2,200fps. Terminal performance showed controlled expansion and full penetration.

I have used 85gr sierra HP under 25gr 4759 for 2,700fps and excellent results on small deer.

I beleive your premise is wrong , seafire , in that in my opinion a true varmint bullet is designed to be explosive clear down to around 2000 fps or even lower .

There are plemty of lightly constucted GAME bullets that would serve your purpose well.....

I would place little stock on testing the loads in any tree stumps or other wood medium , in my expereince a bullet will react very differently in wood than actual flesh . Even a 17 caliber v-max driven @4000 fps will shoot right thru a fence post . Try instead some wet clay soil if you got any of that in your neighborhood , or maybe even Barsness method of shooting into dry magazines or newspaper........the dry medium will tell you right away if the load is going to blow up .......

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
I beleive your premise is wrong , seafire , in that in my opinion a true varmint bullet is designed to be explosive clear down to around 2000 fps or even lower .

Berger MEFs - you would think they were pretty expansive, below 2,000fps they acted as FMJs on deer carcasses I tested them on, at 2,200fps they acted as a hard big game bullet such as a TSX with only slightly bigger exits than entries.

My own findings is that varmint bullets are nowhere near as explosive as made out at lower velocities. I have shot 50gr TNTs and Vmaxes at our small roe deer in confined spaces and they nearly allways exit..... This is at around 3,200fps.

That said I take your point - my own view is that for anyone who doesn't know exactly what they're doing something like the Hornady SSPs (single shot pistol) bullets are a better bet. My own son will probably use a standard 55gr soft point this rut.

And how big would a roe deer be ?

It is not unusual at all for a a varmint type 22 load to exit a coyote , and they run maybe 40 lbs . But that does not mean the load was not explosive , or suitable for shooting a 180 lb whitetail......

The Bergers are well liked by many fur hunters here , in that they will usually NOT deliver explosive surface type wounds .

I tried to remake this a little clearer...what I was looking for, was 'varmint' style bullets in 6.5 bore and up for use in low velocity deer calibers....like the 90 grain Sierra or 110 grain Sierra in 270 bore etc...


Hope this clarifies that a little better...

I know I can take a lot of deer with Varmint style bullets in smaller calibers.. but that comes from experience, knowing deer anatomy and knowing shot placement, when to shoot and when to pass...

Knowing it and advocating it for younger shooters is TWO different things!

cheers
seafire

Is this for comments in a Hunters Safety class?

I don't think I'd spend to much time on the subject with kids just starting out. I'd probably talk briefly about matching the bullet choice to the cartidge/vel and intended game. I'd spend way more time talking about proper shot selection and bullet placement.

Getting to into the cerebral part of the loading stuff could be counter productive. However if it comes up one way to explain is to give an example such as a .30-30 in a Contender with Single Shot pistol bullets or a Nosler BT. It's way slower in an already mild cartidge, but with that bullet choice and good shot placement it will be just as effective and penetrate well because of the low velocity.

Did that make sense???

I don't have a lot of experience with light charge, light bullet loads. I've had my son's just gradually move up in case capacity. Nate

Nate this is not part of a hunter safety course, although I have been approached to be an instructor in the hunter safety program...

A batch of boys attached thru scouting are also interested in loading their own ammo to be able to take out for their first hunting experiences...It adds quite a bit to the thrill for them... and also showing the door open for handloading as well as hunting...

YOur point of the capacity of bullets with the right bullets etc in something like a Contender is exactly what we are after, BUT in a rifle...

Contender performance will mean even less recoil in a rifle...

I was looking for experiences, both pro and con from people... not making this an academic debate.. which this forum has millions of pages on already...

I find as the boys gain confidence in their shooting ability, they have the natural desire to "move up" in caliber and horsepower...which is fine... but lighter recoil helps them learn a lot earlier in their hunting education....

When comparing, say a 243 with a 100 grain SP bullet, to the capability of a 100 grain 7mm bullet at 2500 fps with a more explosive capability, yet not enough high velocity to just explode the bullet on impact.... which would be the more capable round for a kid????

I have seen performances of Varmint style bullets in 6.5 mm bore and up, that have done some impressive penetrations at lower velocities.... hence the curiosity... while catering to the " arm chair experts" that say use a bigger gun that a 243 all the time...

So adaptation of a bullet and rifle combo that the kid can grow into, and go with bigger bullets and more velocity next season or two...

Because we all know... the bigger the bullet and the greater the velocity, the more recoil...

Heavier rifles reduce that recoil, but if the rifle is big enough, the average 12 yr old can't hold the barrel straight long enough to get a site picture and discharge the weapon...

so I am exploring some middle ground here to compromise the situation out into a workable solution...

just one of two seasons can be a dramatic difference in growth size for these kids...

But I'd rather start their interest out at 12 instead of waiting until they are 14, and are more interested in girls, cars and video games....

The earlier you teach them respect and how to handle firearms the better... We have one 14 year old who wants me to teach him all of this stuff in our scout troop... however, I am very reluctant to do so... because I can see this kid on the evening news in a year, arrested for bringing a firearm to school... and heaven forbid how far he would go once he got it there...I really believe if the parents of this kid had taught him some manners when he was younger, his attitude would be totally different...

Teaching these kids in the 11 to 12 yr old range is much more crucial than waiting until a lot of them are 14 or so... the earlier we teach them to respect a firearm and the safety needed around them, the better...

At 14 or so, they are too busy trying to impress all of their friends... and kids are more impressed with some kid who is a punk, at that age, than they are with someone who is safe and knowledgable in life...

I see it working with Boy Scouts all the time...

cheers
seafire

You are so right!

My son's friends are not being taught much at home, and most of what they see is a Hollywood version of things where good guys don't die, bad guy's are glorified, ect.
My hat's off to you. Thanks for taking time to spend with these kids. More people should be involved in these programs.

One cartidge really got my attention lately and that is the 6.5 Grendel. The ballistics are pretty impressive. In a bolt gun I'd use something a little more common, but I've been mulling over building a mini-14/6.5 Grendel just for poops & grins. It may also make an excellent first deer rifle. Nate

Nate,

Actually, I think the 6.5 Grendell in a Mini 14 WOULDN"T be a good first rifle for a kid...

Too damn much fun, for starting them out...

If I owned any Ruger Number one's or had a centerfire Handirifle I'd be starting them out on that one instead...

I do know a local gunsmith that was a Marine Armourer in his youthful days... He has a couple of Mini 14s, one in 6 BR and the other in 6.5 BR....Alot of stuff he has always seem for sale.. but for some reason, not those two...
those and a High Capacity clip, he says is a lot of fun to coyote hunt with! I think he likes chasing the coyotes with the spray more than he does finishing them off....

cheers
seafire

Frankly I see the entire question as "moot"

a typical varmint rifle, I.E. a 223Rem or a 22-250 has proper "game" bullets available that are intended to shoot deer....

the 60gr Nosler Partition will stabilize in a 1:12" twist 223Rem barrel.

the 45gr Barnes-X bullet will stabilize in a 1:14"22-250 or 22Swift barrel, so why even discuss "varmint" bullets in varmint calibers for shooting deer?

That being said I will say that the fastest falling deer (seemingly falling faster than gravity) I've ever seen were does shot between the ear and the eye with 50gr Nosler ballistic tips.

AllanD

Allan DeGroot wrote: Frankly I see the entire question as "moot"

Allan-How can you see it as MOOT when you DIDN'T SEE the question at all???

His original post stated this:

quote:

The whole background or motivation for this exercise is to work up loads in the usual deer sized calibers, 6.5 and up…

-----

seafire-The 7mm, 120 grain V-Max performs well at 2500 fps and under and has been used by many a Contender shooter. The discontinued Sierra 130 grain SSP (7mm) is a good one as well and would be a "varmint" bullet in a high velocity rifle. But a "standard" 7mm bullet that also works at reduced velocities is the 120 grain Ballistic Tip, and I've used it for years with complete success.

You can also drive the 150 grain Ballistic Tip to a mild 2200 fps in a .300 Savage, .308 WCF, etc. and have a terrific load for a youngster. And, it will cleanly take care of any whitetail, mulie or 'lope inside of 200 yards.

Bobby T;

Thanks for the input.. I am testing some 7 mm in a 7 x 57 now...Atlower velocities I have actually been impressed with the 100 grain Sierra HP and the 115 grain Speer TNT.. in the 2200 fps range...

So far I have also been able to test the 120 grain Ballistic tips, along with the 140s and 150s....

The 139 grain Hornady SP and the 140 & 150 Rem Corelokt...

All have done a good job...The 139 grain Hornady has been on par with the ballistic tips
for both accuracy and penetration...

I have also had some 12 yr old boys firing the rifle and getting their feelings on recoil...

20 grains of SR 4759 does not bother the recoil sensitive one, but the 25 grains loads do...

The other boy is less recoil sensitive, and recoil hasn't bothered him at all...

Did the same testing with a 260 Rem, in a Ruger 77 with 15- 20 AND 25 grains of SR 4759 with a 129 grain Hornady SP...Great accuracy, good penetration capabilities, and very tolerant for a recoil sensitive 12 yr old... except for the 25 grain load, but he is fine with a load of 22.5 grains...

This may be time consuming... but it sure takes a lot of the guess work out for others.. and will help the kids get accustomed to shooting, particularly with calibers bigger than a 22.250 or 223... which the 3 testing 12 yr olds I have working with me have no problems with...

cheers
seafire

seafire-I had forgotten about the Sierra. I used it a few years ago, and at lower velocities, it really does a number given broadside presentation. Even at the lower velocities, that gaping hollow nose opens quickly and does quite a bit of damage while still penetrating more than sufficiently.

The TNT, on the other hand, has been a little inconsistent for me at the lower end of the velocity spectrum, and that goes for several calibers/weights tried. I don't know if it's a QC problem, a design flaw or what, but sometimes I'd get excellent performance while other times the results were less than stellar (minimal or no expansion).

First, good luck in your project. I think it is great at what you are doing.

In working up a load, I consider three variables in this order.
1. Accuracy
2. Bullet performance
3. Speed

Accuracy seem like a no brainer, but usually the limiting factor is me. At what range do I feel comfortable about putting all of my shots in a six inch circle while standing, sitting, with a solid rest, and with extra clothing on and with buck fever. I feel it is important to simulate these conditions in practice.

I believe bullet performance is especially important. Basically the bullet needs to be able to bust through a rib and still be able to penetrate into the vitals. It should be able to do this on a 300 pound deer (nice to dream) at ranges from 10 to 300 yards(or whatever the accuracy limits). I also prefer a exit hole. I also believe the bullet should be able to bust through the shoulder as well and still reach the vitals. I prefer bullets that do not fragment (eliminate the smaller caliber varment bullets) or a heavier bullets that will retain their weight. With the slower speeds that you mentioned, fragmentation should be less of a problem.

Finally, faster bullets are more forgiving when the estimated range of the game is off (flatter trajectory).


The gun I have killed the most deer with was a 257 JDJ in a contender. I rarely lost a deer, likely because I was very cautious about my shots, and because I couldn't take a shot without a very solid rest. I also put a range limit on myself. This gun was not one to knock a animal off its feet, but it usually didn't go far.

After reviewing all this, it looks like I am more like a school teacher, but it is just as important for the kids to have fun. I like to set up a few apples 30 or 40 yards down range. they are easy to hit at that range, and watching them blow up gives the kids a thrill and a boost of confidence.

Once again, good luck.

quote:

Finally, faster bullets are more forgiving when the estimated range of the game is off (flatter trajectory).

O.F.

This brings up a good point... For new shooters, (and even a lot of experienced ones regardless of age)... range should be a bigger consideration than it is...

Too many deer hunters think, if they can SEE a deer, it must be "IN Range".....this gets magnified when they are carrying a caliber that is considered a flat shooter, like any of the magnums or ones like a 25/06 or a 270, or 280....IN Montana, I once saw some kids in their late teens shooting at deer that must have been at 700 to 900 yds out there... they didn't hit anything....and they admitted to just putting the crosshairs on the animal and pulling the trigger.... they were blaming the misses on BAD LUCK... not that the range was too far, they didn't know what they were doing, or even the concept of knowing the trajectory of your bullet and how to use the scope to compensate for it....

I was just glad I wasn't out in that direction..who knows where those bullets were riccocheting to!

We all know 90% of most deer in the US and Canada are taken within 100 yds... sure there are exceptions... but just because the "shots" are the exception, does NOT mean the hunter is also the 'exception' in his shooting ability...

A key point is teaching young shooters, just because you can see a deer, does NOT mean you point your barrel in that direction and start pulling the trigger! Too many adults do JUST that!

My goals for velocity for deer and youth hunters is about 2250 fps... Looking at any trajectory charts... ANY Spitzer bullets style with that as a MV , if zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, will be dead on at 200 yds, and be about 3.5 inches low at 225 to 240 yds...

That is more than sufficient for any hunter to be able to put the crosshairs on hide, and pull the trigger and holding steady, to be able to hit the target, within more than double the distance that 90% of all deer are taken....

REcoil is also 40 to 50 % less than the same caliber shooting the same bullet at the usual 3,000 fps...

So now the key is to find bullets that have the ability to perform as needed within the velocity ranges it will be traveling within that 240 yd corridor....

Bullet weight, and bullet design are key factors....Contrary to many Mainstream hunters, I have found that Varmint bullets particularly in calibers of 6.5 mm and above, give up their dramatic "explosivity" and increase their penetration ability dramatically at these lower velocities..

They do dramatic internal damage, without giving the blood shot meat problem that they do with higher velocities...

Some can argue on hitting bone... well I have learned that you are playing Russian roulette with hitting a shoulder in its abilty to break it... this varies a lot from bullet to bullet... not bullet style... but bullet manufacture...

I admit, I am more of the school, of hitting, BEHIND the shoulder, and doing as much damage as I can to the heart and lungs area... I prefer this to breaking shoulders and having exit wounds....

I found exit wounds a significant advantage when hunting in MN and Wisconsin, with Snow on the ground.. it made tracking very easy....

IN Oregon, I find it next to useless... I am hunting mountain sides, in the fall.. where the ground is covered by all of this underbrush that has leaves turning red, because it is the fall! Wander around touching leaves to see if it is red from blood or just seasonal change....
It becomes like trying to find a needle in a hay stack....

So out this way, I go for finding a bullet that will explode in the vitals without destroying a lot of meat...

I am not also of the break the shoulder school either...I have broken deers shoulders and even their pelvic girdle... only to watch them dive into a swamp or down a hillside into black berry brambles and vanish... Their survival abilty to at least get away, is stronger than man's tracking abilty, that is for darn sure...

And thanks to liberal animal rights activists, we can't use dogs for tracking wounded deer...

Experiences have made these MY preferences...HOwever it certainly does not knock the preferences of those that have the opposite views as they have gained them from their experiences....

I take the time to point those out to the boys.. and also indicate to them that they need to pick bullets that will compliment that type of desired end results....

EG: If you buy into my way of thinking, then a ballistic tip is a 'best choice' in my book...
If you buy into the break a shoulder and desire a large exit wound... then it is a poor choice, when bullets like the partition or the Speer Grand Slam or the Barnes X are available...

The Barnes X is a great choice for either route, depending only on how hard you push the bullet from the muzzle...
I don't use Barnes tho, because I can't get the accuracy out of them I want... and I don't want to deal with all that copper fouling stuff...

But in teaching this boys how to shoot, a key part of it to me, is to teach them about bullets and how they perform also... using the right tool for the job...those that argue with one school of thought, are normally from the opposite perspective.....both work.. you just have to make sure the bullet and the velocity you are toting in the rifle is a correct choice for the desired end results...and that the shooter can hit the target within the range that the combo is effective...

Either school, I'll argue that 250 yds is plenty for most of us.... even if the rifle is up to the longer distance task... the number of shooters who are is a dramatically smaller percentage...

I also teach these boys that learning to hit soemthing at 200 yds take time and practice....
NOT only shooting your deer rifle at 200 yds requires practice but so does your trigger control and your eyes ability to adapt to scope use...

We tackle that one, by teaching the kids to shoot at smaller targets with a 22 at 100 yds..
That teaches them not only trajectory but trigger control and eye coordination with the scope and trigger finger...at a cheaper cost...

I prefer to do that with a bolt action 22 with a full sized scope on it.... but we are hindered by the availability and the fun of 10/22s....The boys have too much fun slinging lead... but at 100 yds, it does teach them trajectory and how to use their scope, and trigger control....So we live with the Ruger 10/22s...

It can be time consuming... but we all should try to pass on shooting skills and knowledge to the boys of today... you probably get more personal satisfaction than appreciation from others... but that is fine..

But training the youths, and training them the right hunting and shooting skills and MOST important to me.. ATTITUDES.. It is their attitudes that will keep the other skills in their needed disciplines...

We do them NO favors if all we do is teach them it is okay to see an animal... point the barrel at it, and pull the trigger and hope for the best... then blame it on the rifle or the ammo or scope when they miss...

Sunday night of the first weekend opener, my local range is full of adults just like that...
out shooting their rifle and cursing it, because they missed something they shot at!

I teach the boys, that when something fails... the first place to look for the problem is in the mirror...

If they did what they should have done before going out hunting.. then a miss should only be blamed on themselves or just BAD Luck ( it does happen to the best of us!)

any ways, thanks to all for the inputs..

and I highly recommend spending time doing the same if you are given the opportunity...

I'd hate to see those PETA types win over our youth, based on what WE all failed to do to pass on the tradition of hunting and shooting...

Hunting and shooting are a natural born response and desire in most boys....

Standing out and screaming with a sign saying SAVE BAMBI in a tie dyed tshirt is a learned response...

cheers
seafire

Seafire,

Have you considered the Amax? Hdy recommends it's use as a long range deer bullet and I've heard several guys comment that it works well for that. At the velocities you speak of they will mimic long range hits. I've only used them for Paper in 3 rifles in which they proved to be very accurate. May be a consideration.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Allan DeGroot wrote: Frankly I see the entire question as "moot"

Allan-How can you see it as MOOT when you DIDN'T SEE the question at all???

His original post stated this:

quote:

The whole background or motivation for this exercise is to work up loads in the usual deer sized calibers, 6.5 and up…

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seafire-The 7mm, 120 grain V-Max performs well at 2500 fps and under and has been used by many a Contender shooter. The discontinued Sierra 130 grain SSP (7mm) is a good one as well and would be a "varmint" bullet in a high velocity rifle. But a "standard" 7mm bullet that also works at reduced velocities is the 120 grain Ballistic Tip, and I've used it for years with complete success.

You can also drive the 150 grain Ballistic Tip to a mild 2200 fps in a .300 Savage, .308 WCF, etc. and have a terrific load for a youngster. And, it will cleanly take care of any whitetail, mulie or 'lope inside of 200 yards.

Because I didn't finish what I was saying (had to leave suddenly and forgot to come back and edit in the rest)

There are lighter game bullets available for the 6.5 bore Nosler makes their partition and the nose section of a NP is well know as a reliable expander...
Ditto for the 100gr 257 dia NP

There is an 85gr partition for the 6mm folks...

And now my unguarded question, is there anyone here stupid enough to believe that a Nosler partition weighing 100gr will not EASILY outperform any other 75 or 87 grain .257 or .264dia projectile on game??

If there is please test the bullets on your own head and post the results

No I wouldn't recommend using a Barnes X-bullet loaded slow, but the lightest partition in the 6.5 and 25cal will work fine...

I think the biggest problem with "recoil" is that people insist on making their rifles too light.

I don't believe there is any excuse to be using varmint type bullets because you *think* they *may* work when for literally pennies more
(well, mabey a quarter) you can use something that WILL, without any question, work.

AllanD

Allan,
I usually respect your opinions there guy...But my difference with your opinions comes from USE to having the same line of reasoning....

However after a lot of testing out componets, Yeah I am STUPID enough to tell you that lighter bullets CAN out perform a partition under different circumstances....

I can be Stupid Enough to Say SO, because I have seen it in many instance of actually testing them....

What I saw was contrary to what I was expecting.... So I tested them again and found the same results! and again and again....

A ballistic tip in about any bullet weight will out penetrate and do more damage than a partition of the same weight when velocities start to get down around 2300 fps or so......

I am speaking of experience here...

When I test a caliber, I test virtually almost all bullet weights for that caliber...

In 7 mm this includes everything from 100 Grains to 175 grains....

IN 6mm this includes everything from 55 grains right up thru 115 grains...

And this includes testing velocities from 1500 fps right up to the max velocity for that caliber....with each bullet weight...

so I have some time invested and some noticed results that I can report, CONFLICTING with what I would find, following the normal "read it in a reload manual or Gun Magazine' stuff....

so my statements may be STUPID in some people's books... but if they got their nose out of books and went out and took the time to test some of this stuff.. they may end up finding out exactly what I found out... there is more to bullet selection than meets the eye...

if everyone could shoot a 30/06 with a 180 grain bullet at 2700 fps, most of all of this would be a mute point... but they can't, so it isn't!

Try dropping a 55 grain ballistic tip in any type of 6mm at an MV of 2400 fps or less and shoot it into a batch of milk jugs or a piece of wood 6 to 8 inches in diameter... and see if it performs the way "tradition" tells you it will.... YOU may surprise yourself with the results....

then maybe you can be STUPID, like I have become...

Actually it is pretty enlightening to be "STUPID" in that light...

cheers
seafire

Seafire
I too have went through the options and testing you did. I was trying to find a reduced load for my wife in her 270. The first problem I ran into was using regular hunting bullets at reduced velocities. After several bullets failed to expand (on live animals) I then went to lighter varmit type bullets and had mixed results. Sometimes the varmit bullets performed perfectly and sometimes not. I found that if the conditons were good (broadside animal at a mid range) the varmit bullets did a great job, however, if the shot was to close or to far or a bad angle the bullet performance was unpredictable with over or under expansion. I could not figure out a way to make the varmit bullets more forgiving in the velocity envelope.

The solution dor reduced load and good killing power was cast bullets. What I found was heavy for calibur cast bullets at around 1800-2000 FPS greatly reduced the recoil and were very consistant killers. I adusted the alloy until I got good expansion and they did not come appart. I could not get the kind of accuracy I got with jacketed varmit bullets but it is accurate enough to kill deer out to any reasonable range you would shoot reduced loads to (200-250 yards).

Overall I have been impressed with cast lead bullets killing power on deer sized game. I sometimes think myself and other hunters put to much stock in high tech devises. I think on somethings the old timers had it right.

Russ

MtELkHunter...

Thanks my friend.. that is the kind of feed back I was hoping to have people share...

I am taking the time to have others either verify or disprove what my observations are, before we get a final " decision" of what to recommend to the boys....

Like Big Game bullets, I am finding varmint bullets can also vary a lot...Like SPSXs vaporize in my 223 with a one in 9 twist.. but the ballistic tips, and V Maxes, and the Hollow Points do just fine...

IN a 6.5 mm, I have also found that many other 100 grain bullets and less weights perform better than a 100 grain partition does... until the animal gets a lot larger in size...

A fast moving 100 grain partition in a 6.5 bore is not very practical until the size of the game is much bigger than the average antelope...

The media on smaller game does not give enough resistance for the partition to do its job in that service...I'd recommend it with no problem for 200 lb deer, but think it is a poor choice on 100 lb deer...

I am finding a slowed down ballistic tip is a darn good choice tho when downloading velocities..

In 6.5 mm, the 95 grain VMax sucks as a low velocity round... but the 110 grain version in a 270 is a totally different animal...

All of this research and testing tho, sure helps to discover and lot of info... and that is what I am looking to pass on to the younger shooters...

At 2200 fps, there are better choices of bullets than the traditional onces that work best with 3000 fps or better MV..but it is hard for some guys to realize that...

Each type of bullet, even in different calibers have their own windows that they perform best at...It is the quest to find that...

bullet manufacturers don't tell ya... they tell ya on what sells.. and most guys think if they don't have 3000 fps or better, then the round isn't going to kill anything bigger than a gopher...

it just ain't so!
cheers
seafire

Seafire
Another thing I have noticed about bullets in general is that IMHO I think most premium bullets are constructed way to tough for smaller big game (deer and antelope). I have had more problems with premium bullets failing to expand than anything. I think for deer sized game a standard hornady or speer bullet will kill quicker and be just as reliable as the premium bullets. Some people will disagree with that statement and that is fine too each there own but I have drawn these conclusions after seeing many hundreds of deer and antelope shot with just about any combination of gun and bullet you can imagine. BTW the most deadly load I have ever used in a 270 is a 150 grain hornady loaded to full power. This load had taken many head of deer and elk and has never failed, that is more than I can say for alot of other caliburs and bullets I have used.

Gidday MtElkHunter,

Does your full hose 270 load make for a lot of bloodshot meat? I ask this because when I was using some Norma 180gr factory loads out of the 30-06 and hit any bone bigger than a rib I could pretty much write off that quarter of the animal.

I suppose that bullets kill by destroying tissue but I do hate wasting meat. Even the bloody fussy cat won't eat it.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Even the bloody fussy cat won't eat it.

ya need a dog there Hamish....

Beagles love all of that blood shot meat!

Gidday Seafire,

Yeah I know mate. Sue (She who must be obeyed) saw a lovely chocolate lab a couple of weeks back and got me all excited but it was a bit pricey at $1600!!!


A good lab, weimeraner or GSP is on the cards when I leave the city for good but in the mean time its "I owe, I owe, its of to work I go".

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Ham:

Gidday back mate!

I see not much difference in Kiwi land, than it is here...


I owe I owe, so its off to work we go....

Same here mate!

cheers
seafire

Hamish
In general I have not found alot of difference in blood shot in the hornady load and any of the other loads. The hornady holds togeather well. The only bullet that gives me less blood shot is the solid copper bullets like barnes, however, I have had several barnes bullets fail to expand and in those cases poor killers. Most of the people I hunt with are meat hunters so we don't usually shoot for the shoulder, we shoot behind the shoulder to keep blood shot to a minimum. On the behind the shoulder shot I have found that the softer bullets like hornday and speer appear to kill quicker than the harder premium bullets like swift, nosler and barnes, not that the harder bullets don't work it just takes a little longer.

Gidday MtElkHunter,

I have had a similar experience with Corelocts and to a lesser extent Ballistic Tips on goats. When I went to 110gr hps in the 30-06 the problem just went away.

The guys give me a hard time when I use this combo on goats. They accuse me of firing hand grenades at the goats such is the damage done
with this load.

I am now using the 222 for goats and these are a little less explosive and results in more edible meat (only on young animals).

Happy Hunting

Hamish

hamish....

your above post is a good example of the fact, that a lot of us need to quit listening to the advise of our so called hunting buddies....

Who criticize what those of us may use.. when most of them, are using factory ammo.. or are of the 30/06 180 grain SP club for everything.. and never seem to acknowledge something out of their sphere of influence CAN work just as well if not better...

I take few people's advise unless I asked for it.. and hang out what experiences I have like apples on a tree... anyone who cares to pick one is more than welcome to it... those that want to pass it by, are more than welcome to do so also....

But I don't need to hear from people who pass it by, but are busy complaining and spreading rumors that all of my apples have 'worms' in them.....

If it works for you mate, who gives a crap what your so called Hunting buddies think???? I am sure you don't waste your time telling them, what they should be carrying....

This is a problem I think a lot of us, seem to do....feel guilty and obligated to accept advise from others who usually don't know as much or have experienced as much as we have... yet we ourselves are not shoving our experiences and ideas down everyone else's throat...

More things work that are just the run of the mill ideas....

remember once upon a time, everyone thought a 30/30 was a popgun... and minus a 303 British, there are probably more firearms floating around the world in 30/30, than any other sporting cartridge....well maybe a 7.62 x 39 might give it a run for its money.... but many consider that a pop gun also.. but it seems to work just fine for its intended purpose...

cheers
seafire

Seafire
I agree with you. After 30+ years of hunting big game I have come to the conclusion that for me anyways it really don't matter what gun I hunt with because I just adjust my hunting style to fit the weapon. I hunt with a bow (compound and traditional), handgun, shotgun and rifle. Each has its own pros and cons and each are fun in there own way. Although I don't advise it I have killed deer with a 22 long rifle. A 22 is about as far away from a deer rifle as you can get but under very limited situations it does work.

I have used the 30-30 alot and it is a very effective deer gun to about 200 yards and it don't ruin alot of meat.

I'm afraid I have a problem with the premise. I think it's a mistake to underestimate a kid's ability to handle recoil and to start them off with an underpowered smallbore rifle, especially one loaded with varmint bullets. This needlessly overmothering attitude generally creates bad habits they will have to break later on. Personally speaking, I started my son off at nine years old with a .35 Whelen and full big-game loads. He had no problems whatsoever and soon learned to prefer using my .375 H&H on deer because he likes to shoot the rifle and likes making decisive kills. Nobody ever told him he was supposed to be afraid of recoil, so he never was. I think most kids are like that.

Gidday Guys,

Interboat,

I agree that kids can often handle more recoil than we give them credit for. Now the premise here is that not ALL kids can. For those that can there is no harm in them building into it slowly. On the other hand those that can't run the risk of developing a bad flinching habit before they develop the confidence to handle larger calibres. This is probably the hardest habit to break. Worse still would be the young fellas being scared of shooting all together (not good for the future of the sport) because it hurts.

The other point that we make is that for the game most youngsters normally go after first up (deer, goats, antelope and varmints) generally don't require big boomers which are generally counter productive. This is because they tend to use projectiles that are too stiff in their construction too reliably kill quickly. I have never used a 35 Whelan myself but I suspect that a 222 would be a more reliable killer on goats chamois (antelope) and small deer going on my experience with the 30-06.

I am not saying that you are wrong its is just that my experience training young soldiers to shoot was a lot easier with the M16 than it was with the SLR (L1A1) because of the recoil. Once they were proficient with the 5.56 there was less of a problem when they moved to 7.62.

That is my experience anyway.

After trying to convince my regular hunting mate Barry to use heavier bullets in his 243 for deer I have given up trying to tell anyone how to do things. He doesn't argue, he just keeps bringing home the bacon with those 85gr HP sierras. It works so I can't argue.

Happy Hunting

Hamish