Hi all,

Opening morning last Saturday, my brother Bob shot this deer in the mountains north of Republic, WA. He was sitting on some rocks above where some trails crossed and this bruiser came sneaking underneath him. He shot him from above at 10 yards just behind left shoulder obliterating the heart and cutting the liver in half before exiting the low right side.

At first he thought it was a mule deer, but when our hunting partner got up to him he said it was a whitetail. When I looked at it, I thought it was a cross breed between a whitetail and a muley. This deer was huge. Gutted and with the hide off it weighed 175 lbs. I've never seen a fatter deer before.

Take a close look at the antlers and tell me what you think. I've seen cross breeds or benchleg bucks before and they always seem to have huge bodies and antler anomalies. I've also heard that Whitetail and Muledeer crossbreeds can not breed, but I don't know that to be a fact.

BTW, the rifle is a Remington Model 600 6.5 Rem Mag in a Macmillan stock. The plastic vent rib has been removed, and the barrel and action coated with Ceramicoat. Load was 120 grain Barnes TSX and 49 grains (I think) of Varget.

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No idea on the thing's parentage, but what a fatty!

Whitetail face and whitetail antlers. Whitetail to me. You didn't day anything about it's tail.
Was it black or white?

I did forget to mention the tail. Long like a whitetail but very skinny. White underneath, black hair on the outside. Biggest damn whitetail I've ever seen.

The same thing happend to me a couple of years ago. The biologist told me the best way to tell what type of deer it is, is by looking at the sent gland on the rear hocks. A whitetail's sent gland about an 1 1/2" or so, a Mule deer will be closer to 6", and a crossbreed will be some where in the middle.

Hey Brianbo, Nice Whitetail.

Sounds like a fine rifle as well. They were way ahead of their time for "most" folks.

How do you all like the Ceramicoat?

Looks like a whitetail to me.

It's my brother's deer. I only wish that I had shot it. It's the first time he's ever killed a buck on opening day, ever! Needless to say he was pretty excited. I also don't think he really cares one way or another if it's whitetail or muley.

As far as the rifle goes, it never was a very accurate rifle with 140 grn bullets, but the 120 grn TSX and Varget shoot really nicely. The Ceramicoat was the kind you can buy in an aerosal can from Brownells or Midway. Easy to use, very forgiving, applied evenly and looks really nice. It hasn't had any tough use yet, but seems to be pretty durable.

Looks like all WT to me..nice buck

Pure whitetail, IMHO. I have killed hybrids and they are very different from pure strains of either species. That was a very large deer

Brainbo,
Sure looks like a whitetail to me.I hunt near Hunters Wa. in Nov. for whitetails during the rut.North eastern Wa. has some really big deer and a buck that dresses out over 200lbs.is not that uncommon.
Notice how long the eye guards are?Thats also a very common in the whitetails here in Wa. You see a lot of double eye guards as well.
No matter what his genetics are he is still a great buck I would be proud to hang on my wall.

Last year I saw a nice white tail buck just west of Yakima on 82 by the private crop dusting strip. It was a a good 8 pointer. It was along side of the highway feeding. It was nice to see some WT around.

100% whitetail. Nice one by the way.

It's a whitetail retard.

From the pictures, there is nothing to me that even resembles a muledeer. The antlers, the face, the body coloring. Its a great buck, but IMO is 100% whitetail.

OK concensus is it's whitetail. I guess I was mistaken. The tail wasn't like any whitetail I'd seen and the scent glands were much larger than 1-1/2" as referenced above.

Thanks for all of your replies... except MrHawg who can go F#$k himself.

I am right there with everyone else. It is a whitetail, has no muley features at all.

I'm Brianbo's brother Bob I'd like to say thanks to most of you for your comments. And thank Brian for helpin me get this guy down the mountain and cut up. Only correction is I load 49 grains IMR 4350 with the 120 TSXBT in that gun.This deer had a weird tail for a Whitetail, black back, but...the important thing is it was a great day, the freezer's full, and it's not even Elk season yet.

Congrats on a nice deer....

The whitetail can get a lot bigger than that one in the upper midwest and on the prairies of the plains states and especially up on the Canuck provinces....


the biggest one I ever took in MN, field cleaned at 265 lbs.....

I sure wish whitetails were as thick out west here as they are in the upper Midwest...

Say, Mr. Hawg

GFY

and have a nice day, too.

friar

North of Republic? I was north of Republic on Saturday AM.....Rose Valley to be precise.

Nice looking whitetail. My uncle has lived in Republic for 90 years and has remarked time and time again how the area has gone from nearly all mule deer to nearly all whitetails.

As far as that being a hybrid, even with genetic tests its tough to get a clear picture, F1 are not always sterile (in fact most aren't).

I could go on and on about hybrids......but I won't today!

IV

IV,

We were higher up on some ridges above Knob Hill Rd & Trout Creek Rd. I'd have to look at a map to pinpoint exactly, but every deer I saw were muleys in the area where this one was. There was a nice 3 pt muley eating apples in the front yard of a house in town on Knob Hill Rd? I think it hung out there all day.

Brian, sorry for calling you a retard.

I called the Dept of Fish & WIldlife and there was a biologist in the office when I called, though he was not specifically assigned to the region where we hunted. He confirmed what IdahoVandal said; that the statement that crossbreeds are sterile is a myth, but that the science isn't clear on the percentages. He also said that sometimes it's easy to idenify one while others are much harder. Without a doubt though, the whitetail and muledeer interbreeding is affecting the genetics of both species it seems to be having the most impact on the mule deer.

Regarding the coloration on the tail, it's not uncommon for a variety of colors on whitetails. Mulies have a skinny white tail with a black tip.

Most whitetails have the typical brown/gray color on the outside, and, obviously, white on the underside. I've seen several whitetails in TX and Miss, and AL that have such dark pigmentation that their tails looked black.

The genetic effects are somewhat undesirable but hybridization is a natural occurence and may have a lot to do with speciation (in evolutionary terms) We suspect the mechanism which has kept hybridization under control has been predation, the F1 offspring have a limited anti-predation strategy and may be more susceptible than pure of either species.

We already know that cougar prey on mule deer disproportionately to their availability (in our study area). My thesis is looking at the genetic structure in NE Washington and whether cougars are disproportionately preying on F1 hybrids. This would only result in a problem for the mule deer if the hybridization is occuring at a greater rate with whitetail buck/mule deer doe than mule deer buck/whitetail doe. But we'll see....

Dr. Valerius Geists' book "Mule Deer Country" has an entire chapter devoted to the theory and its potential ramifications. I am just lucky enough to be able to spend my time testing the theory.....

IV

I have read that the probability of the whitetail buck breeding the mule deer doe and the resulting offspring cannot stot like a normal mule deer therefor more succeptable to predation. In the same article they said the muledeer seldom breeds the whitetail. By the way nice deer.

Rad

I have seen whitetails with very dark coloration of the tail. They kind of jump out at you when you see one. The contrasting white from underneath the dark tail.

I believe that Geist also makes a couple of comments on Hybrids.

By far, most often it is a white-tail buck covering a mule deer doe (which means that doe does not produce a normal mule deer that year)

I was under the impression the result was infertile. so the hybrid would not contribute to the mule deer population

The reason a white tail buck would even be able to bother a mule deer doe would be that there was not a big mature mule deer buck around to "claim" that doe. So areas where mature mule deer bucks are over harvested are more likely to have hybrids.

And of cource that looking at the head and antlers is NOT a good way to identify cross breeds.

There is a cougar study being done in West Central Alberta presently. Search University of Alberta Zoology Department.