What is the reasoning behind this restriction? Is this a challenge to your personal freedom?

And what is with the orange outfits?

By way of comparison. In general the UK deer season runs from November - March for females and April - October for males. So you can hunt deer all year round.:0 The reasoning behind these dates is that by restricting the dates on female hunting it avoids orphaning young at heel.

And another mystery. How does that tag thing work? If you do not draw a tag does that mean no hunting? No tags in the UK. Here it is left up to the discretion of the individual hunter how many deer he shoots. Under British law the deer (live and dead) are the property of the landowner. The system seems to work as we allegedly have more deer now than when records began in 1067.

Do you have to draw tags for females too?

But you have to look into the numbers. In the US, a lot of hunters typical take a small number of deer per year, while in the UK, the reverse is true ie a relatively small number
of stalkers take a relatively large number of deer. If the US had the same rules as the UK,
the hunting pressure would have a huge impact on the deer populations. I believe that at the turn of the 1900's deer populations were
at an all time low in the US and that it was the introduction of shorter seasons and tags etc which turned this around to the point where deer populations are now at an all time high in most places.

Still, I sure do like stalking all year around and not having to bother checking my beasts into some government check point!:-)

Pete

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 06-25-2001).]

Where I live, the State of Michigan , deer season begins on October 1 for archery only. Yep, I'm out there. It runs through January 1st. There is a 2 week firearm season that runs November 15 to the 30th. After that there is usually a muzzleloader week and depending on deer numbers a special antlerless firearms season at the end of December. There is one area that has had TB and the tags are unlimited.

I can legally purchase 5 tags in my state, more if I want a possible TB deer. They all vary, some states have daily bag limits. The most deer I have killed was two does last year. I could have taken more, spike and forkie bucks, but I let them run hoping they will grow up into nice bucks someday. Usually though, I think I end up leaving them for someone else to kill. Not everyone adhears to letting the small bucks go to grow and taking does instead. It is too bad. In three years of serious hunting I have yet to see a "big buck". But they are out there. Many huge deer come from where I live.

Ironically I have yet to kill a deer with any sort of firearm. They really go nocturnal as soon as the shooting begins on November 15th. Which means you need to have the day off from work if you are going to score a nice buck. This year I do have the opener off.

The tags get real complicated too. They allow for antlered deer which must have so many points for bucks. Better read them before shooting or you can get into some trouble.

Personally, I do not know why the season isn't longer, you should see the roadsides here. Just littered with deer carcasses, what a waste of protien. Also, there is so much private land, many people do not allow hunters to take deer. There is an abundance of State and Federal land here but it fills up pretty fast with hunters. There are still 2 million deer in my state alone after hunting season ends.

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~Ann

Every day spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

quote:

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Originally posted by Deerdogs:
How come the (deer) hunting season in the US seems to be very short. How long is it? A couple of months?

What is the reasoning behind this restriction? Is this a challenge to your personal freedom?

And what is with the orange outfits?

And another mystery. How does that tag thing work? If you do not draw a tag does that mean no hunting? No tags in the UK. Here it is left up to the discretion of the individual hunter how many deer he shoots. Under British law the deer (live and dead) are the property of the landowner. The system seems to work as we allegedly have more deer now than when records began in 1067.

Do you have to draw tags for females too?

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The root of the difference comes from the idea of who owns the animals--in the UK as you note, the deer have always been the property of the landowner, and hunting is a right of the landowner or those to whom he grants permission.

In the U.S. the deer (and other wildlife) are considered as a resource owned by the state and managed for everyone. As you may recall from studying US history, some of our ancestors had a bit of a problem with some of the landowners in England and game laws were a big part of it.

Seasons vary tremendously but tend to be short because of the number of people pursuing the quarry in a limited (and unfortunately in many places shrinking) territory. In some states I believe the firearms season is as short as two weeks, but in others it's quite long--here in Virginia the firearms season in the more sparsely populated, mountainous counties only runs two weeks but in the rest of the state it goes about six. If you hunt during the muzzleloader season it is more like 6-8 weeks statewide.

However, in many areas the bag limits are quite generous, especially for landowners. In Virginia, you must buy a general "big game tag" for $12.50 which allows four deer, three turkey and one bear, with various restrictions as to sex, location and spring or fall seasons (for turkey). BUT landowners participating in deer control or deer management programs may get quite a few extra bonus tags--on closing day I hunted a friend's farm in a suburban area where for 170 acres he had enough tags that each of us (8 hunters as I recall) could have shot 4 deer over and above our regular tags. None of us had any luck that day but they typically shoot 12-20 deer each year on that property.

The "tag thing" is simply a bureaucratic device of ensuring that each hunter adheres to his limit. It also helps resolve conflicts where, for instance, one hunter wounds a deer which another finishes off. First to tag it ("reduce it to possession") wins.

In many states you do have to draw your tags in a lottery--this is to help ensure that the most hunters go where there are the most animals rather than wiping out the population in whatever area is most convenient/scenic/renowned for trophies etc.

The "orange outfits" similarly are another response to the fact of unknown numbers of hunters, of unknown skill, operating on public land together. Some states don't require orange for private land and I believe a couple don't require it at all. For some states it's different for different species--for instance in Maine, deer hunters must wear an orange hat and a jacket or vest; but moose hunters must only wear an orange hat. Why? Because you have to draw your moose tag in a lottery, so there are fewer people in the woods during moose season (which is over before deer season starts.

Whew, does that answer your question?

One of the main differences is in hunter numbers. I imagine that we have more hunters in one good state than all of the UK. If it was an all-year free-for-all, the deer numbers would suffer in a hurry. In the UK, you may be able to hunt all year, but only at the whim of the land owner. How much publicly owned hunting ground is there over there?

I'll take our system. Yes, I may only be able to hunt deer for a few weeks, but I can hunt other game of some sort or other almost year round. I can shoot a year's worth of venison in those couple weeks. And, I don't have to be rich or priviledged to do it.

How does the tag for "a possible TB deer"
work??? What happens to the beast after it is shot??

Pete

The thing I like about being able to hunt all year is the challenge of adapting different techniques to suit the conditional variations in the time of year. Than and FRESH venison year round.

Gary - the way it tends to work in the UK is that the landowner gives you the right to hunt - period. You just get on with it. It would be very unusual for a landowner to micro mange exactly when and where the hunter hunted. Also, it is certainly not the preserve of the wealthy. 90% are your average blue collar/ white collar Joe. Most regular hunters who are non landowners do not pay much money at all - if any - to manage deer. It can take a while to make the right connection. Usually the deal is a % split of the meat.

If you want to take nothing but trophy then guided hunts will cost. Say US$500 for a very nice trophy roe buck or a reasonable red stag.

I do not own any land (other than 0.5 acres of garden) and the total cost to me is petrol to the area I can hunt on 45 miles away. (Near the US airbase at Lakenheath).

As a recreational deer hunter here I shoot, say, 25 deer per year. A few years ago it was more but demands of work mean that I spend more time doing what I prefer not to do rather than enjoying myself.
Then there is the grouse and pheasant shooting (12 August - 1 Feb) to fit in. And the fishing (May - Sept),

Too much sport, too little time.

I'd be interested to hear from Mats and other Europeans to hear how it works over in Europe.

Anyone can buy a tag unless there is legal retriction. You can kill one deer, usually a buck. Im my area there also any deer tags, which allow you shoot either a doe or a buck. Some apply for a bonus deer tag and then you can shoot two.

If you own at least 5 acres of land that is a continuous tract, you can hunt without a permit.

We have to wear orange because some of the knuckle heads who hunt don't bother to fully identify their target before they shoot (shooting at a noise, a flash of color) and they end up shooting other hunters who they will swear looked just like a deer.

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert D. Lyons:
We have to wear orange because some of the knuckle heads who hunt don't bother to fully identify their target before they shoot (shooting at a noise, a flash of color) and they end up shooting other hunters who they will swear looked just like a deer.

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In some cases it can be pretty convincing. In the hunter safety class I took, we were shown a film based on a real incident (pre-blaze-orange, in New York state I believe) where a hunter shot one of his partners; the fellow was wearing a brown coat, bent over in a fence line, wiping his rear with a piece of white toilet paper. Would be funny if not for the tragic result.

Jim

Naturally, spring is out, what with bear season, turkey season, and getting ready for fishing season: after all steelhead and salmon will be running soon. Summer time, well the antlers are still growing, fishing is good.

Then fall, that's bad enough already, you have to try and co-ordinate the fall bear season, elk season, antelope if you draw, cougar if you have the time, pheasant, chuckar, sage grouse, sharptails. Fortunately forest grouse runs from Sept. 1 through somewhere in December or so. This year I have to squeeze in a moose, somewhere. What, with the extra whitetail tag you can get after you kill a mulie you can already hunt for nearly two months!

What do you mean, a longer deer season? Where am I supposed to fit it in? Good grief, I am getting enough flak from the family now!

Well then, I stand corrected.

I am truly happy that the situation is not as bad (restrictive) as I have always been led to believe. Had always been under the impression that without some connections, the "common man" was out-of-luck. It really is good to hear that for the price of gas, you can shoot 25 deer per year. Heck, I might even move over there now!

At present we can hunt fox's although the anti's do want it banned. Labour Part backbench MP's as a whole more or less support a ban, but for the Government things
are less clear cut. Despite the anti's being very vocal and having strong financial backing, they are in fact a minority.
A couple of years ago, the pro hunting groups
put 250,000 marchers into the centre of London to protest about a bill to ban hunting. When the anti's hold protests, they rarely manage to turn out 3000 supporters.
I suspect Tony Blair wishes either we would role over and give up or that the whole issue would go away. His party has accepted some major finnancial donations from the anti's
and now they want pay back.

Pete

I'm a regular working guy, but the area I live in is one of the few in the UK where there are very few deer, hence I have to travel to pick up my stalking.
It can be very difficult to pick up the sort of deals Deerdogs talks about if you are not "local", and the price of stalking in general is going up as the depand increases. Having said that, I'm in a lease on 3500 acres with about 9 others. We have the use of a cabin and a quad. To use that roughly for one long weekend a month, (maybe a bit more in the rut)I pay roughly the same price as a new Remington ADL per year. I worked it out last year and it was costing me about $50 per long weekend including the cabin ect. As there are no tags or anything on top of that, I don't think that is too bad. Before the foot & mouth outbreak, a 30lb Roe carcass was fetching nearly that at the game dealers
and I guess I was taking around a dozen or so
a year of that ground. There are a few Red
deer on there as well but I've not managed to get one of those yet!
We actually have 6 species of deer in the wild in the UK and of these 5 are what I would say are common enough for stalking to be easily arrangable. In addition we have small but stalkable populations of wild boar
and feral goats. Compared to the US, owning a firearm is a hassle, but once you've sorted out the red tape on that side, for such a
relatively small and densely populated country, the stalking is not bad at all:-)

Pete

We have also paved much of paradise and put up parking lot's ; That, And traditional Mule Deer habitat has been transformed by modern farming techinques that have increased the Whitetail herds, but whacked the Mulies.

I also have to , sadly, admit that there is way to much poaching and illegal hunting going on in the States. The old wives tale of the guy out spotlighting deer to feed his family is the biggest crock of crap ive ever heard, and I have many game cop friends.

Im afraid we Yanks are just a tad disrespectful of law and Govt. ; Its both our greatest strength, and sometimes , our greatest weakness. There is way to much of "a code of silence" when it comes to illegal hunting and that hurts the quota numbers of those of us who play by the book.

Im sorry to have to say that but its true.................10

To answer your question about the TB area. It is also a cattle area, hence it is bovine TB that has infected some of the deer. The deer are able to feed right along side of the cattle, plus many of the large private landowners/clubs used to put out mountains of sugar beets and carrots to feed and attract deer during hunting season.

Now there are severe limits on "baiting/feeding" of the deer. The other problem is that predator are coming up infected. There has been coyotes, raccoon, and at least on bear have had positive results. Last hunting season the State did a study on deer harvested in the TB area and the surrounding buffer counties. Hunters were asked to turn in the heads from their kills so the State lab could test brain tissue for TB infection. I do not know if the results were published yet or how many deer have been confirmed positive.

Hunters would have the choice to take the meat. I am sure upon cleaning the deer if it did not have any sign of TB the hunter would take the meat home. I think the State disposes of positive animals through incineration.

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~Ann

Every day spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

quote:

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Originally posted by Slamfire:
On opening day the Pennsylvania (is that as big a Wales?)woods will contain 1 (count 'em) MILLION "hunters". That's as good a reason for requiring the use of orange as any I can think of.

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Slam: Sounds like kevlar would be a better idea!

For anything other than fowl and mountain lions, you must put yourself into a state-wide drawing. You list three "areas" you would like to hunt and wait and see.

If you're drawn, you're sent a tag and off you go. The liklihood of being drawn depends on what you're hunting and where (obviously getting an elk tag for say the North Rim of the Grand Canyon area than somewhere else where they are not so plentiful)

Of note is that for the Bighorn Sheep, you get one bite at the apple. You recieve only one tag in your life. So you'd better get your ram

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

you can submit 1 special quota and 1 genral gun quota permit application.

if you drive all over the state you can hunt from sept till jan but most cannot who live in FLA and hunt we have to work.

I do get my Hog and Deer hunting and snipe hunting in and with the bird hunting included i can strectch the sason out a bit.

you need the orange jackets or be prepared to be shot by those clowns that shoot at anything that moves with there rem semi auto's

[This message has been edited by mikfla (edited 07-04-2001).]

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~Ann

Every day spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

While you might think we have generous bag limits, it's not that way. We are limited to 4 Blacktails a year. Some areas even less. But, the deer population can be severly impacted by just one bad winter.

No hunter-orange requirement, no hunting hours limit either. You can hunt at night, but you can't use any lights, NVG's, etc...

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!

quote:

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Originally posted by BW:

No hunter-orange requirement, no hunting hours limit either. You can hunt at night, but you can't use any lights, NVG's, etc...

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Brian, Night hunting must be a blast. Is there a lot of ambiant light up there - I mean with full moon and snow? What tactics do you employ at night?

regards

DD

I think the reason for the lack of a "legal hours" law, is the weird amount of daylight we get up here in the course of a year. It's not too bad in Sitka (dark at about 11:00PM, light at 3:30AM), but up north, it's light all 24 hours.

Of course during most of the hunting season, it's getting dark fairly early. At least as compared to the "lower 48".

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Brian
The 416 Taylor WebPage!