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Ladies and Gentlemen: At present it does not appear that the introduction of Canada timber wolves into Idaho, Wyoming and Montana can be controlled through hunting. Use Alaska's experience as an example. Ask yourself this question, why were wolves exterminated in the early 20th century? How do you think that we can handle them now? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | ||
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Chris. I had PMs from a couple of Canadian guys wondering what on earth it is about Americans that they can't live with wolves, while the Canadians do just fine with them. Canada has lots of deer, elk and cattle. I certainly can't explain it, but it has been pointed out that many of the various wolf subspecies that actually evolved in various portions of North America are extinct, such as the Cascade wolf of Oregon and Washington. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Dear Bill: And I've spoken with residents of Alaska, who think that wolves are a major source of trouble for the caribou, deer, sheep and moose. The same can be said about Idaho, Montana and Wyoming now. Does Canada have more liberal, varmint type laws regarding wolves? Can you pretty much shoot them up? I've read Jack O'Connor's descriptions of Alberta and I think Yukon hunts, where the wolves had moved into a valley and completely cleaned it out of game. These were places he had hunted 20 years previously. What do you think that cattlemen and hunters did to wolves in the late 19th and early 20th century in the lower 48? Why did they do it? Do we really want another apex predator in our midst? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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In Upper Michigan they are exceeding the 'social carrying capacity' a DNR term for people are sick of so many them and illegally reducing the population. There is some kind of biological term for introducing a species into an environment suitable for them. The species population peaks, crashes and stabilizes. Always to be a cyclic population. It is hard when a predator is peaking. | |||
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Wolves were eliminated from most of the lower 48 by an all-out extermination effort by the U.S. and state governments designed to benefit the livestock industry. In addition to paying bounties, the government's trappers worked full time all across the west, poisoning and trapping wolves, and seeking out dens and killing every pup they found. They also were encouraged to teach cattle and sheep growers their techniques and provide them with traps and poison. Don't know if there were any serious wolf extermination efforts in Canada or Alaska, but I would guess that if there were such programs, they were restricted to areas with livestock. Bill Quimby | |||
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We can live with them. If they could be hunted and trapped the same as coyotes. And shot to protect our property such as dogs, cattle, sheep, horses, etc; We didn't ask for them, liberal bleeding hearts did. Then they were shoved down our throats! We were lied to again and agian by the USF&WS. Also, most of the US doesn't have wide open spaces that can support both game and large preditors, as well, I think our hunting pressure from humans is a little more intense than many parts of B.C., N.W.T. and Yukon. So, more hunters wanting to hunt and actaully shoot some thing to eat, coupled with expanding populations of canadian wolves and grizzly bears, throw in developement at the ninth degree, and we get to walk around in the woods looking at trees, rocks, and bear and wolf poop full of elk hair! | |||
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I think the real problem with wolves in the lower 48 is that they were wiped out. Had they been left on the landscape we would not have the problems we have now. Had there always been well regulated population control we would not have all the save the wolf idiots. They all assume all of them are going to be wiped out. Hard to get them to ignore the history of wolf control. If there always was wolves that were well controlled they would not be as vocal against those control methods. Wolfs are learning the boundaries. Had they been left alone those boundaries would be ingrained in them for many generations. Hard to get them to avoid people and livestock when for the years after reintroduction they had to reason to avoid either. Unfortunately I don't see how they can be taught those boundaries without killing a lot of them and pissing off the wolf huggers. Now we come to the elk and other critters wolves are munching on. For years and years they had little to worry about as far as predators. It had been nearly a century and how many generations since the animals with the instinct and experience to handle predators were alive. We dump a super predator on the scene and there is going to be carnage. I don't see how we can change the situation without human control. It would take years and years for a natural balance to possible be struck. I doubt if that is even possible as the other issue that seems to have been forgotten is the habitat changes. There is way less habitat for the elk and other animals. Prior to the wolves being wipedout there was places for animals to move to if predation got too bad. Also now the prey animals are more concentrated in less habitat making it much easier for them to be hunted by the wolves. In the past the prey was spread over a greater area making the wolves work for their food. Too many things have changed since the wolves were wiped out for them to exist in balance on the landscape now. They need to be controlled. Human control is the only option. Too many problems to fix to get the wolves to be a balanced part of the ecosystem unless their numbers are reduced considerably. | |||
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Dear Chris: I really don't know why it is that Canadian hunters and ranchers can coexist with wolves. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the health and vast expanse of Canadian wildlife habitat unspoiled by human encroachment, relative to the Lower 48. I'm pretty well convinced that we really can't support wolves in more than a small portion of their historic range. Oregon, for example, is so crisscrossed with roads, rural homes, ranches and other development that every wolf is a tragedy. Hell, we can't even manage healthy deer herds here anymore. And California? Maybe a few wolves in the Warner and Klamath mountains, and in the Sierra, but they will always be at the fringe, and always hated by those with livestock or hunting opportunities to lose. I think it's just a tragedy for all concerned -- including the wolves. On the other hand, hysteria never leads to good policy, whether from wolf lovers or wolf haters. Bill There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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You can probably find some answers on the ranches around Joseph, OR. We already have an out of control predator population. One thing for certain. The wolves have created lots of government jobs. Why in the world does it take over $600K of tax dollars to control 25 wolves (25 +/- is the "official" count though they have been seen all over the NE) over the next two years. And that doesn't include paying the ranchers for their dead cattle. Those funds have been frozen by the Central Committee of the Salem Party. I can see this wolf situation getting ugly. I'm really not sure how far you can push these ranchers. | |||
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Everyone, stop long enough to read Mike7mm08'ss post copied below, it is about as close to the real answer as there will ever be on thi subject. JMO. Good Analisys Mike.
Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I believe you touched on the bottom line right there. The ecosystems of the Greater Yellowstone area and Alaska are not as vast and expansive as the Canadian Rockies. Especialy the lower 48. They are fragile ecosystems. The herds of Utah have been deciamated by predators as well, but our predators ride 4 wheelers and carry rifles. The bottom line is ballance. Our hunters outnumber the amount of sustainable game by a considerable margin. The DWR was finaly forced to admit that things are going bad and make some major changes this year. As for the Wolf situation. I fear that the future outlook is bleak. They were eliminated for a reason. They are prolific hunters and Montana and Wyoming have clearly shown what they are capable of doing to game herds. I am afraid the situation is going to get much worse before it ever gets better. At least it is now legal to hunt them in Idaho. That is the first real step in the right direction, but it will not be anywhere near enough to deal with their devastating effects on the herds. I fear that things are going to get much worse on the American Hunting scene before any real changes are made. Hunters do more for game herds than any other group, but unfortunatly they seem to have little say so reguarding managment policy. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Which is why it was a huge mistake to "re-introduce" them in the first place. It was a really bad, stupid idea. You cant "fix" the fact that Wolves are such prolific breeders and hunters. The truth is the only way a ballance will ever be struck again is to eliminate them in the lower 48 again. Due to human expansion and a lack of suitable ecosystem, that is the only real answer. Anything less is an exersize in futility. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I agree 100 percent. But unfortunately there is no way wolves will ever be wiped out again. If they took to eating humans on a regular basis maybe. Other than that I don't see any way a wide scale population reduction let alone extermination will ever happen. | |||
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They were wiped out because they were a bad neighbor. You are an 1850 family trying to make it on a one cow operation. Hoping for a heifer calf this spring, now you will be a two cow operation. The timber wolf comes along and you are a no cow operation. No milk for your kids, butter for your bread, cream for the market, bull calf to trade for sugar and coffee. Get the idea? In the 1850s a hard rock copper miner was worth a dollar a day wages, 10 hour day 6 day week. 10 dollar bounty on the wolf. Today a miner is worth about 28 an hour, at 70 hours a week(time and a half over 40) at four weeks a month , divided by 3 is 2600 dollars. They were a cash strapped society often paid in company script. The wolf was and is a bad neighbor. | |||
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