One more thought here...the idea that fair chase is a hunt in which an animal is able to escape the hunter is wrong. If a fenced area is large enough, I'd say a whitetail would have a fair chance of escaping a hunter. However, that is not the point. The point is that fence is keeping that deer there year around, and that is not natural. It's an artificial condition and that is what makes it not a fair chase hunt in my opinion. I would also say this applies more to elk than to deer, as they have a much larger range. In many cases I don't suppose a fence that covered a large enough area would even restrict the movements of many of the deer in that area. Heck they may not ever see the fence. So it does all depend on the size of the area involved and the species. But seriously, if somebody puts up a game proof fence, they must be doing it to keep animals in, and possibly to keep other animals out. It would be so nice if private ownership of wildlife was illegal in every state, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Oh, and btw, I still don't agree that hunting on an island is not fair chase. The animals can leave that island any time they want. They may drown but they still got off the island, whereas with a game proof fence, that would not be an option.

Given that the animals belong to the state and the land belongs to the person, what is your compromise? You don't like the current situation; fine. What specific improvement do you offer?

I think Ballbuster is trying to rationalize several things:
1. That trophies he has taken on canned, fenced, whatever hunts can and should be compared to trophies taken on public lands with free ranging wildlife. The fact that B&C and P&Y won't consider fenced-in hunts as "fair chase" irks him.
2. That he knows he may never get an opportunity to harvest a trophy class animal on public land, therefore a fenced hunt is his only option.
3. He is the owner of a game farm, and is trying to drum up a little business.
4. He may not have the time needed to devote one's self to chasing a trophy critter around, a canned hunt may be a simpler, quicker option.
5. Maybe he enjoys hunting non-native wildlife a little closer to home (mule deer in PA), African game in Texas.

MG-NOT a mink farmer

Fair enough when looked at from the average view but consider this;
Assume you live in South Texas in a sub-division with 600 other homes on lots roughly 1/10th of an acre. You are surrounded by the King Ranch. Now a bunch of yahoos show up in your back yard to deer hunt because hunting pressure on the King Ranch has created an "urban" deer population. You may own your little piece of heaven but the deer belong to the state and if those SOBs want to wait in your back yard to shoot a deer you have no right to stop them. Does that sound right to you? Property rights should always supersede this sort of generic collective right or the precedent dooms us all.

You sound like a perfect case of class envy. B&C and Pope& Young qualifications are a farce, dude. One continuous mile of open fence between properties? Do you have any idea how little that is on modern hunting farm? Its like limiting fishing trophies to not less that so and so meters of water; meaningless.

MG: #1. no I don't care if the fenced hunt's elk can be measured by B&C or P&Y. Why? Cause I have 11 bull from MT on my families ranch that score over the minimuns to make it and none of them are registered either. Paying to put my name in a book does not float my boat. I can control my ego.
#2. #1 should answer that about the elk. My kin folk have 16000 acres of ranch surrounded by BLM. and I have my own 700 acre farm here in Pa where I've killed several P&Y bucks.
#3 Yeah right, if I did own a game farm I sure wouldn't be posting "who is man enough to admit it" would I?
#4.I'm a retired lawyer, got plenty of time and $ .
#5.No,I don't like to eat them, only deer,elk,bison and if those trips I have been on were offered on the size ranches I HUNTED I sure as hell would have stayed closer to home an not paid to ship all that meat back here.
Now how about you? why are you such a sore ass? Cause you don't have the money to go on a "once in a lifetime hunt"?
Or is it that you are stuck hunting public land and see a orange vest behind every cedar tree?
Or that little young buck or doe or cow elk you do get every couple years is your idea of trophy hunting and selective harvest?
I've never done nothing I'm ashamed of. I won't go shoot goats or imported rams on those Texas ranches cause the meat I am told tastes like crap. To me that should be outlawed. Shooting something you don't plan on eating is something to be ashamed of.BB

Well if you have the time and $$$, why wouldn't a guy apply for public land areas that are managed for trophy deer and elk?? Each state in the west several areas that are limited draw, with chances at taking an exceptional animal. A guy would save a lot of $$ on these do-it-yourself hunts, instead of buying an animal from some rancher. Are you just too lazy, or do you want someone holding your hand while you're out in the field??

As far as being too poor to afford a canned hunt...you bet. I would rather hunt out with the other public land slobs and work my butt off for a trophy than purchase one that cannot get away. As far as B&C and P&Y are concerned...I could care less. However, my cow elk or little mulie buck are worth more to me knowing I outsmarted something that isn't used to farmer Bob brining him grain in the morning.

MG

#1 Total "Bullshit" (they don't call me a Ball buster for nothing no ego, HUH
#2 Total "Bullshit"
#3 Understood Totally You would be your own best customer
#4 Total "Bullshit" People that have money don't have to brag about it
#5 Out west here every trip is a hunt of a lifetime and the good part is we don't have to remove an ear tag from our elk before having it mounted.

GO BACK TO YOUR PETA FORUM--TROLL

BB, you say you've never done anything you're ashamed of and then you turn around and say you're a lawyer. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
You might want to clear up your bullshit about serving in WW2 and Korea while you're here.
I think JimmyD has it right.

rwj,

Maybe by your definition those states are "fenced states" but not by mine. I grew up in Montana, live and hunt in Washington and hunt in Idaho every year. The fences there are to hold in cattle and the game can and do jump it or crawl under (antelope) all the time. The only high fences I see in Washington are to keep deer and elk OUT of orchards and it works well for that.



I hunt in the Frank Church Wilderness area, there are no roads, no fences and the area is 3.2 million acres. In other places in Idaho during hunting season the roads are closed to vehicles, the same here in Washington. The roads do not become barriers to the animals, yes it can make it easier to get in but in most cases the game is far removed from those roads.



My concern is a fence that encloses the deer or elk or whatever you are hunting. The recent discussion another thread involved what sounded like a rather large elk herd on less than 4 square miles (3.59 to be exact). That makes it 1.9 miles to a side if it is square. That is not even in the ball park for fair chase.



I do think that size makes a difference in this case. If you have 50,000 acres it certainly can be a fair chase hunt. Now consider what happens when you manipulate that fence to use it to your advantage, literally cornering an animal.

Chic, I agree size does matter. No pun intended.

Quote:

---

I do think that size makes a difference in this case. If you have 50,000 acres it certainly can be a fair chase hunt. Now consider what happens when you manipulate that fence to use it to your advantage, literally cornering an animal.

---

There is the crux of it. It has more to do with how the hunt is conducted. It is the behaviour of the hunter that matters. This includes hunting an inappropriately small fenced area. I have said before in relation to another thread that I wouldnt even shoot a shit eating duiker against a fence. That dosnt mean all fenced properties are bad. I think most of us recognize a canned hunt when we see one even if some dont want to admit it.

Customstox:

I agree with you 110% and clearly I overstated my point by painting the core wilderness mountian states with a broad brush...and I certainly was not trying to insult anyone. Shooting elk in a Nebraska cow pasture under a high fence with a red tag in its ear would make me uncomfortable (I would not do it) and it is a long ways from hunting in the high sage north of Cody, or the Clearwater River in Idaho, or simply looking at the mountains to the west in NW Montana on the road to someplace north. But would I hold that against anyone? Absolutely not. If they held that accomplishment out as something it wasn't (if they were not honest about it), I would view that as an expression of their character.

I was merely trying to point out that many opinions on the defintion of 'fenced,' 'free-range,' and 'fair-chase,' can be quite subjective. For the most part, this thread has produced some good comments on the subject...including your comments. Some folks see the world in black and white (the animal is under a high fence on 50 acres [or what ever] or it is not). But I see many shades of gray.

If you cannot tell from my earlier posts here, I think roads are worse than fences...and I fear soon Alaska is going to have roads out to Illiamna and Bethal and Nome. The caribou and gizzly bears and wolves and moose will either die or be protected by some special park. One good gravel road stretching west to Illiamna from the Parks Highway (Hwy 3) will make someone rich, but it will ruin all the important stuff. Even now you have only a few places where aircraft do not fly over you on a routine basis.

I appreciate your considered response.

Robert Jobson

BallBuster, Lets go back to the start of this thread where you brought up the 730 acre island. You stated they take 50 dead deer every year. I understand you are an attorney as you claim but can you really see this as anything other than a "Canned Shoot"? 50 deer per year/per 730 acres

Your throwing out statements concerning the CWD and when you are questioned as to where these "Facts" are located you side step and ignore the question.

Then sir: you try to Baffle us with Bullshit such as the following

1. I'm a retired lawyer with lots of time and $

I ask you sir, are we to be impressed by such a bold statement

1. Lawyer= Not at all impressed
2 Lots of time=Very good
3 $= Do you really think anyone here really cares if you have $ or not Money DOES NOT make the man

As for me

1. 57 yrs young
2. Self-employed 28 years
3. Retired at 55
4. $ just enough to enjoy life
5. just sharpe enough to spot a TROLL

57 cripes your a young punk! BTW what branch of the armed services were you in? I don't think I recall you mentioning that.
Must go no time to waste if I get to the links quick enough the geese will come right up to me for the free bread handout and 1 good WACK with a 3 wood an another trophy for the wall...... there are no fences on the course that the geese can't fly over so I assume that you will approve
BTW is it study hall time for eight graders or are you on a library pass using the computer? 57 retired yeah right

BallBuster, Keep diggin, your doin a FINE JOB



From the way this thread has gone, I am thankful I would NEVER need you as a Defence Attorney Hell, you can't even Defend Yourself

jimmy you'd better hurry up and get back to English class....there is no "c" in defenSe;aka defensive team.
BTW which branch was that again?????

BB, what happened to the Golf game? All the clubs rented

Yes, your right, spelling is not one of my strong points but Honesty is.

As to what Branch, I was not the one to bring that into the debate to try an promote myself as believable.

NEXT ?

Ballbuster,

Since you seem to be the self appointed spell checker, you might want to clean up your own act.



Thankful is spelled with one "l" and not two unless it is thankfully. You use a capitol letter to begin a sentence, not lower case. Although it is slang it is "younguns", not youngins.



I do not do this on this site or any other, although I have seen you do it on a number of occasions. I am posting it now to show was a self serving dip shit you seem to be. End of my conversation with you. All I have read out of you

has been worthless drivel and you are now officially on my Ignore List.

I missed the morning flight of geese must now wait for the mallards. that got me to thinking the ponds on the course are stocked with trout, would it be fair chase to fish for them??? they can't get away from me there.
does the hall monitor know you're hiding in the closet with a laptop?

MORTIE, I didn't know you were an Attorney

geeze cutomstox i is all brkin up ovr urine dislike ofs mi butt gotta ask y u thunk i kare what u thunks of mi?

I have hunted on both fenced and non-fenced. I prefer non-fenced, but in reality- everything is fenced. I guess I would get a little more worked up over the baiting of deer to timed feeders or to shooting over waterholes in Africa. It is hard to teach ethics. I am reading Teddy Roosevelts book on his trip to Africa. His comments are very interesting - in summary, they hunted on horses, trying to run critters down. But he passed on many shots that were "too easy" to be sporting. Each to his own on this issue.

Outdoor Writer: I am sure we are not any closer to being on the same page. Customstox disagreed with what I said and provided a reasonable response to my point....he made an adult comment. You did not. You and I with have to settle for me being goofy and you being unprofessional.

Robert Jobson

this sounds about right!!

QUOTE:
Now for my opinion: Sell the experience, not the animal. selling animals by the pound (or inch) is not hunting. it is shopping. Scoring animals that are bred and raised to shoot is a business.. but it is not fair chase if the animal has no chance of dieing a natural death. plain and simple. Put a hunter in a pen with a hungry lion , and with no firearms , now that may be fair chase!!! Then let that hunter decide how big the enclosure needs to be to call it fair chase..
I have been charged by grizzlies twice. That was fair chase.
Jameister