Well, hunting seasons are winding down in Wyoming and another cluster of memories will be stuck in my head for years to come. I had some great hunts, saw some cool country and met some good people. I saw the Northern Lights over the Grand Tetons in November. I thought I was going to be killed by a wild bison. I saw the elk migration to the National Elk Refuge in action. These were all wonderful experiences while hunting this fall that I will never forget. Unfortunately, I also saw quite a bit of crap that made me almost embarrased to call myself a hunter. I'm not sure if it's because I'm getting older and just notice things more, or if the ethics and values of hunters are really going down the toilet as fast as they seem. I saw "Long Range Hunting" in action as people hunted Teton Park while the elk moved to the Refuge. These people would just drive around all day until an elk made a run for it over the flats. These guys would pull over and open fire. Finally they would realize that they were way too far, or running low on ammo, and get in their truck and drove some more. I was too far away to see if or how many of these elk were crippled, but they sure as hell didn't kill anything. I was not impressed. In October, I saw several deer that had been killed and dumped on the side of the road. Some had the meat removed, but some had everything but the hind quarters and the antlers remaining. Even if every scrap of meat is taken, dumping a ribcage on a busy street just outside of town makes us all look like slobs. And then, there's the local tract of state land. Everybody has to have a goddamned four wheeler these days. It does not take a rocket scientist to see the damage that can be done when idiots abuse their toys, making new roads, making noise, and screwing up other people's hunts. Maybe someone will do a study someday on the hunting success of those with ATV's vs. those without them. I've noticed that success seems to be inversely proportional to the number of ATV's in your camp.

I know we all have our own reasons for going hunting. Some want antlers, others just want the meat. Some don't care, and just want to spend time in the wild and maybe catch a good sunrise. When my dad first took me hunting, I think that if we had spent the day driving in circles in the pickup or on a goddamned four wheeler I would have taken up golf instead. You can hear the birds sing when you are golfing. Had we cut the hind quarters off of my first deer and dumped the rest in a ditch I would have felt like a killer, and not a hunter. It just scares me to see how lazy, and completely out of tune with wildlife that so many hunters have become.

Lots of good points. Shooting off of an ATV is illegal here, and ATVs are not allowed on public land, so its less of a problem, but a problem nonetheless. I've watched my neighbor, who claims he's handicapped, but is really just fat and lazy, drive around on his four wheeler all day during deer season. Its funny to watch from far away, because you can see the deer leaving just before he gets there.

I saw a deer with just the backstraps taken and the head cut off lying on the side of I-79 after the first day of deer season. Thats the worst kind of slob behavior, and gives every hunter a bad image. I also see more garbage on the game lands than any other public land. It's disgusting. If you can't hunt without leaving a trail of beer cans and ho-ho wrappers along the way, stay home and trash your own place.

I've never actually caught anybody dumping garbage in the woods, but if I do, I'll be sorely tempted to do something rash.

Right on...if a law was passed to make it illegal to use four wheelers on public land here in Wyoming it would be the best thing that ever happened! I have had dozens of instances where other so called "hunters" on four wheelers have ruined my hunting experience. The bottom line...hunters now a days are fat, lazy, want the biggest buck with the least amount of effort.

MG

One of the hunting camps I used to run had a single jeep road that passed nearby. There were a fair number of guys on ATV's that drove by, but watching them from across the canyons, they rarely got more than a couple hundred yards away from their machine. We shot a lot of elk in there, "they" did not. Fortunately we are seeing more restrictions here every year on where ATV's can and can't go. It's a shame really, that so many of the ATV crowd can't govern themselves so laws need to be passed. I used ATV's a lot in my outfitting business and they are really great machines, in their proper place, which is not running all over the forest.

How about a law that you have to be 50 years old to use a ATV for hunting. If your young get off your butt and hike...

The problems aren't new but they have become more "acceptable" over the years apparently. Other than going after downed game, I see no point to an ATV.

I first felt that gnawing sadness back in the late 60s; then the big-deal was 4-wheel drive. Those that had it could get back into serious mule deer country; either that or a Volkswagon. A Volkswagon could get back where other "normal" vehicles couldn't.

For over ten years one of my favorite places to hunt was in Salt Rock Canyon, South of Weed, New Mexico. We would make our camp just north of the dirt tank. (No one camped higher.) Sometimes we would see bear tracks at that tank. Any of three draws to the North held mule deer. I've shot many fine bucks back in there, particularly on one saddle.

Well one year it happened. About 3:00 in the morning, opening day, we heard the whirr of the Volkswagon coming closer and the lights started playing against our tent. They drove right through the middle of our camp, on up the draw, and right into the saddle that was the mule deer's favorite escape route. The "hunters" got up late, and by mid-morning they had set up an empty anti-freeze jug and were sighting in their rifles. Needless to say the mule deer were gone.

When we left the mountains three days later, they had already left. Their anti-freeze jug was still lying on the saddle, as was their trash. We cleaned it up, and never went back to hunt Salt Rock.

I imagine if those guys are still alive they "progressed" to ATVs. It's not technology that is at fault, it's the lazy fuck sitting on it.

Don't paint all us atv users with the same brush.We're not all slobs out to ruin your hunt.As you can tell I'm an atv user and make no excuses for it.I and those I hunt with go out of our way not to get into another hunters way,but sometimes it happens.Don't tell me none of you has never walked unknowingly into another hunter on stand or still hunting a trail,I've had it happen lots of times.

We use existing trails and don't make our own.An atv allows me to get back into country you probably couldn't or wouldn't walk into in a day,let alone shoot a moose or an elk and have to pack it out over two or three ridges.There are also no horse hunters in these areas because of the vast expanses of muskeg.

As for the noise they make,they don't scare the game.On more than one occassion I've had moose and deer stand on the trail and watch me approach,a few times less than 10-20 yards before they step off the trail.Two years ago we had a bull stand his ground on the trail we were on while packing out a bull we had shot that afternoon.He wouldn't move and I idled by him,made me a little nervous but he finally took a step off the trail and let us by.

Also in the area I hunt we are not allowed to us an atv before noon assuring that those who are on foot don't have thier hunt spoiled by one of those "DAMN ATV'S".

Hey 43deer, I think you need to take up golf. You have a lot of beefs. Most of them seem to be directed toward ATV's. If someone will start the collection, I'll be glad to contribute a couple of bucks to shut you up. So you can buy your own. Rather than start a big bullshit thread, let me say this: I was talking to a couple of
Wy game wardens a few years ago, their take was this: "we don't have a lot of problems with the "out of staters", its the locals that give us the grief". You know, you don't need a 4 wheeler to pen a "goat" against a sheep fence and chase it with a truck until it exhausted and then shoot it out of the window.
How did your hunting go? If you didn't have a lot of success, I,m sure you have to blame something. Let's face it, this is the age of none responsibility. Its ALWAYS something elses fault rather than the fact that you're a loser. I'm kinda sorry to be so rough on you but sometimes its get a little hard to listen to you crybabies.
Have a nice day.

That's nice that everybody that posts in favor of ATV's always obeys all the laws and is a responsible ATV rider.



Wish I could say the same for the guy and his son on a Honda chasing elk through snow in an area completely closed to motorized vehicles, on or off trail.



Wish I could say the same for the guy with the slung rifle crisscrossing the ridge I was on and scaring deer out of half the draws on it, such that they were out and gone long before he could even get off his ATV, much less unsling the rifle.



Wish I could say they don't scare ALL the game, just most of it. I too have seen deer stand beside a trail and watch as ATV's went right past - two separate instances IIRC, both time they were does but that could just be coincidence. I have seen many more game animals - including those stressed out elk and the deer mentioned above, either sneak away or flat high tail it out of there at the first sound of ATV's.



Wish I could say the same for about 15 more incidents of this type which I have witnessed.



I really, really, really am against banning or even restricting something because 10% or less of the people who use it, misuse it. But my hunting has also been ruined four years straight by some jerk on an ATV. It only takes one.



The basic problem is nothing new. As a previous poster pointed out, road hunters have been ruining hunts for others before the first ATV was a gleam in some engineer's eye. But it used to be that you could walk and get away from the road hunters. You can't do that anymore because now they can follow you anywhere.



I know what I'm about to say is irrational. I know it is only that proverbial 10% that is the problem. I try to look at this from a logical perspective.



But try as I might to be reasonable, I hate those goddamned, motherfucking ATV's with a dark passion. I wish to hell the stinking pieces of shit had never been invented.



If someone wants to give me crap for that and insult my hunting abilities to try to justify their position then go right ahead. It won't change my opinion of ATV's just as I know the way I feel about them won't change theirs.



I'm sorry for that vitriol and apologize for the language, but I had to be honest and get that off of my chest and no other way of expressing my feelings seemed adequate.

A friend of mine called me up about an hour after dark one night last week;said he had shot a buck a couple of ridges up in a tough spot and needed a hand. He figured the two of us should be able to get him out in about 3 hours. I asked him if I could get my quad anywhere near the buck. His reply was that it was pretty steep, but that he had dragged the buck out to a quad trail. I loaded the quad, drove to the area,unloaded,drove up to the buck,pitched it on the front rack and drove back out. We were back in town with the buck within 45 minutes. So to all you die hard "quad haters"...keep on draggin'!!

Every year one of my goals is to get far away from the lazy asses who are afraid of a little walk. And every year it gets me into some damn fine country. And some solitude. I guess thats part of the reason that ATV'rs dont bother me so much. But, alas, every year it is getting harder to do..

Look, listen, think, adapt. Its what "hunters" do.

I've had more hunters on foot interrupt a hunt than atv users.

Jim I don't want to change your mind even if I could.You're entitled to your opinion and I respect it,but you're letting that 10% of slobs paint us all as ill mannered slobs.

I knew a guy like you who absolutely hated atv's and their users.Then one day he's back off the trail a few clicks and shoots a moose in a horrible place and he has no way of getting it out by himself,blowdowns and muskeg.Anyways he asked me for my help,which I gave him.I could've said tough shit,you shot it there,you get it out by yourself.I did it more out of respect for the moose than him,he was a damn fool for being back that far and shooting a big animal.

I won't tell you that I changed his attitude,he still hates atv's,but at least he doesn't go beyond his limits anymore and thinks twice about where he shoots an animal.Unfortunately there are still many like him out there who don't think about the consequeces of their actions but sure like to bad mouth others who do.I could say this about all foot hunters like yourself,but I don't,because you're not all like that.

No, I hope I'm not painting everybody with a broad brush, since stereotyping an entire class of people - any group of people - based on the actions of a few is a real sore point with me.

ATV's are wonderful for fetching downed game. That's what I originally bought mine for and it was great. I knew a guy with Lakota ancestry and he was all scornful of anything "waseechu" (sp?) which I'm pretty sure is the Lakota word for white man. But he was quite happy to use my little Yamaha 250 to retrieve an elk. They are great tools for ranchers or farmers and do most of what a horse would do but don't need hay or vet bills all year long.

Finally, they are loads of fun. In the summer, NOT during hunting season, I enjoyed riding mine all over the old forest service logging roads that were closed to bigger 4WD trucks.

But it just burned my butt, year and year, to see them driven in areas clearly closed to motorized use. You get up at 0'dark thirty, hike and hike to get to the top of the mountain, and 5 minutes before shooting hours here come four of them roaring straight up the hill - making a nice set of ruts which will only get deeper during the spring thaw and rains. And then, oh yes, here comes the next bunch of guys next year who aren't breaking any regulations because they are using "an established trail".

The standard response from ATV associations is that I should report them. You ever tried doing that? Nice idea but totally unworkable. F&G has way too much else to worry about besides trying to run down some guy who is only going to get what amounts to a traffic ticket. YOU have to idenfity them. YOU have to be available to testify in court. And it all comes down to your word against theirs. And finally, IF convicted, they get maybe a $200 fine? Off road regulations are too easy to break with little fear of retribution involved.

Okay, then take a picture or otherwise confront them. You have to get close enough to get a positive picture and depending on who you talk to at F&G they will tell you that you should get a picture of that little 2" registration sticker that can be pretty much anywhere on the machine. Lessee, here's a guy who is deliberately breaking the law anyway, obviously has no respect for his fellow human beings and is armed with a high powered rifle. Plus - about half of the the ones that do this are the classic white trash bubba - the guys who will burn your barn in the South if you chase them off of your private property. Nope, I don't think confrontation is the best plan.

I think Colorado or maybe Montana has a law that they can't be used during hunting season until after 12:00 noon - that would be okay with me.

Anyway, I sold mine just to keep the moral high ground. I don't care for hypocrisy either and I could not justify my growing hatred of the object and personal ownership of that object.

I really, really, have tried to work this out in my mind and am in a bad spot here. If you substitute the word "gun" for "ATV" then my dislike of the object is exactly the same as the irrational dislike that anti-gunners have for our firearms. Both are merely tools that can be used or misused. The person misusing either is the bad guy, not the tool itself.

Still, I hate those things. As I said in my last post, my main objection is that you just cannot get away from them. They are just too good at what they do, which is covering ALL terrain. Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

We will just have to disagree on this but in parting I appreciate your honest post without resorting to the insults so common on controversial subjects in these internet forums.

Excellent post 43Deer. I agree with all you said. With regards to the ATV's, two thumbs up to you!! I live and hunt in Texas, where nearly every deer hunter feels the prerequisite to own a blasted ATV so they can drive acroos their 150 acre deer lease to get to their stand. It's incredible to see these morons dragging a trailer and 4-wheeler to these tiny deer leases. They sit their fat, lazy asses on them, drive them right up under their tower blinds, climb in and sit there and wonder why they never see anything but does, yearlings and young, ignorant bucks.

When I hunt New Mexico and Colorado, I ONLY hunt areas closed to ATV's. And I figure the first timeI see one cutting across a mountain meadow where there are no roads, a bullet in the engine block might be appropriate.

Recently, our state closed many river bottoms to ATV use. A warden speaking at one of my Hunter Ed classes said said if/when he finds someone in a bottom with an ATV he'll take the keys and let them figure a way to get it out. That really warmed my heart!!

Every trip I've taken to NM or CO I've either walked or ridden horses or mules. Yeah, it's hard, damn hard. It hurts like HELL when you only ride a saddle animal a time or two a year, but it's rewarding to me.

Last October, when my father and I went on an elk hunt we'd ride about 4 hours +/- during the course of a days hunt. My father at the age of 70, would rather sit at home than or walk the best he could than sit on a frigging 4 Wheeler.

I believe there ARe legitimate uses for 4 Wheelers, but being a lazy ass is not one of them. It's sort of like pot-shooting game at insane ranges "just because you can".

Flame me al you want, I HATE those things.

35W

I also hate the blankety blank ATV's. I also don't buy into the crap that only 10% are the abusers. I find that it's only 10% are the responsible ones.

But I let the law handle it. If they're allowed in an area I simply don't hunt or even go there.

If they're there illegaly I politely but firmly tell them that if they don't get their lazy a$$ out of there RIGHT NOW I'll call the law on them and testify in court against them.

Still I have several hunts a year illegally ruined by ATV's and am trying to understand why people think they need them. In this day of game carts and rental horses it seems that there's always a responsible way to get your game out. If you are stupid enough or irresponsible enough to shoot game where you can't retrieve it then I hope someone takes away your hunting priviledges.

I acknowledge that there are a few areas that can only be hunted by ATV's and think that's great and wish the people that hunt there success. Personally I prefer my pickup or a bicycle or a horse if I can't do it on foot.

Yes I've owned them and have ridden a fair amount but to me they're just a playtoy unless you use them to make your living like a farmer, rancher, or something like that.

By the way... I know several game wardens that will flat out tell you that almost all the poaching done around here (Florida) is done from ATV's because the riders know that the law can't catch them in a chase without another ATV or a chopper.

Also there's a rampant and huge problem with ATV riders cutting fences all over the state and riding wherever they damn well please with impunity. No license to provide ID and they wear helmets where you can't recognize the rider. Some are poachers but most just want to ride wherever they want and really don't care who get's pissed or hurt in the process.

Cattle ranchers have had enormous problems with them too. They LOVE to chase cattle and harass dairy cows.

Yeah... I hate 'em but where they're legal I leave 'em alone and wish 'em well....

A measure I think needs to be enacted is to make mandatory visible licensing front and rear with large plates and big numbers. Take away some of the anonymity and take away a large part of the abuse. ATV riders associations fight that tooth and nail... Wonder why?

$bob$

"Cattle ranchers hate them also." Bullshit!!! Every rancher I know or know of in Wyoming has several 4 wheelers and usually a couple dirt bikes as well. Every farmer/cattleman around here has at least one. Another of your bullshit stories trying to justify your narrow prejudices. If you don't like them, too bad. I doubt very seriously that they're gonna go away.
And you folks that are saying "they scare the deer, they scare the deer" haven't a clue. Again a line of bullshit to justify your position. Deer pay no more attention to a 4 wheeler than they do a ranch truck or an oil service truck. I have deer browsing in my front yard with a dirt road running acrost the front beyond that. The deer ignore the 4 wheelers just like they do the cars that pass. Now then, if someone starts hollering "there they are, there they are" and come to a screeching halt and bail off (or out if in a truck), then the deer find another gear and motor off. Often only into the edge of the woods where they wait until the folks leave and then they come back out.
And you folks that are whining about getting up at oh dark thirty, hiking several miles to a spot that thru some preverse reasoning you figues is "yours" only to have a 4 wheel rider pass you, that's life. No real difference than having a walker come into "your" spot if you're hunting open land. The only difference is the 4 wheeler got to sleep later, eat a good breakfast, start later and get there before you do. He also has a nice lunch packed and hasn't had to back pack his tree stand if he's using one.
Also, when he kills that trophy buck right out from in front of you, he has the means to get it back to camp without rubbing the hair off one side of it. So, as he motors back past you and gives you a smile and a wave, curse technology. And include it all: electricy, indoor plumbing, vaccines, motor cars and so forth. But don't curse computers as they allow you to whine in front of tens of thousands instead of the same old batch of luddites hanging around the camp stove.
I'll give up my 4 wheeler when they pry my cold dead fingers from the throttle.

beemanbeme,

Don't mince your words... Tell us how you really feel...

I didn't say the cattle ranchers hated them. The problem is people cut their fences to ride on their property and harrass their cattle. Ranchers use 'em too...

Just because someone can afford an ATV doesn't automatically mean they want one. I don't like 'em but don't mind people using them... Just not where I hunt and recreate. I don't want to restrict their use where legal... Our problem here is that a LOT of riders want to ride them where they're not legal.

It's the illegal riders that cause almost all the trouble.

Cool you're jets man... We're on the same page...

$bob$

Post deleted - sorry for my outburst. It's just not worth getting into an argument over. We all have our individual opinions and individual experiences that shaped them and that just the way it is.

Dickhead.

Jim in Idaho, All of us do not subscribe to beemans rationale. I've never had a problem with legal use of ATVs, but for some reason my memorable encounters are with folks using them illegally in WV. Trespassing is the most common, illegal use on a divided highways, and hunting (loaded weapon) from them are pretty common.

White-tailed deer tend to react differently to ATV's, vehicles, and noise in general when they are feeding in the vicinity where such noise is frequent. I hunt several areas where the deer hang out around the clubhouse or residence and show little fear of humans or vehicles but when the same deer are less than a half mile from human habitation where we hunt them, they cut and run at the sound of any kind of vehicle. We quit driving close to the areas where we hunt and do more walking and see many more deer. The deer seem to acclimate to disturbance when it is constant and when noise from whatever source erupts unexpectedly, they flee from it. I watch deer in my back yard regularly and they ignore vehicles but when those same deer cross the street and get in the woods, its a different story.

In reference to the original post, its seems that human behavior in general is deteriorating in this country whether its hunters or non-hunters. Some examples are the fighting amongest the NBA players and fans and that shooting in WI. and bassboats dang near running over me when it am trying to fish. And if I am seen catching a fish folks move in right on top of me. That kind of stuff used to not happen. And look at the stadium after ballgames. We are a nation of litterbugs. It gives the janitors a job so I guess its ok but not where there are no janitors. The various user groups on the average treat our public wild areas like a janitor is going to come out and clean it up when they leave. They trash them out because no one is there to police them and they are too lazy to pack out what they carry in. We need to show each other and our land a little more respect. Merganser

Oh well, in for the penny, in for the pound...

I hate 4-wheelers, snowmobiles, blow boats, and I'm not real fond of most of the people I've met that drive them. Not all mind you, just most. I've got boots, some outfitters have horses I hear. If I need a lift, I'll take Mr. Ed. It really isn't the vehicle, seems like it's the psychology of most users that unhinges my mind. Wish I could find a more leisurely way to get annoyed at folks...Almost reminds me of a Bush/Kerry debate now that I think about it.

You shouldn't have deleted it. I thought you were dead on. If I had ever hunted in West Virginia and had a problem with an ATV driver I would have said, "that's him" after reading Beemanbeme's posts.

He seems to have exposed himself the more he rants. Wants to sleep late, have a nice breakfast, race to get there first, ride all the way in, pack a nice lunch, etc. Nope, doesn't sound the least bit lazy to me. Spoken like a true ATV-type hunter.

Hey Beemanbeme....

First, I didn't say I hate everything about ATV's, and everyone who rides them. Just that I don't care for what I see them being used for while hunting. It does really, really piss me off when I walk my butt off to be somewhere early in the morning only to have some lazy fuck drive his ATV through a meadow (no roads in sight), looking for that dumb deer that does not run at the sight of him.

Second, I never directed anything towards non-residents of Wyoming. I know damn well that most of the problems here are caused by residents. Take a chill pill.

Third, I filled the few tags I had, and had a great time doing so. Had I not filled them, I would still be alive and well. I wouldn't blame ATV's, bullet failures, or anything.

Seems that you are the crybaby, you prick.

Beemanshits Quote://

And you folks that are saying "they scare the deer, they scare the deer" haven't a clue. Again a line of bullshit to justify your position. Deer pay no more attention to a 4 wheeler than they do a ranch truck or an oil service truck. I have deer browsing in my front yard with a dirt road running acrost the front beyond that. The deer ignore the 4 wheelers just like they do the cars that pass. Now then, if someone starts hollering "there they are, there they are" and come to a screeching halt and bail off (or out if in a truck), then the deer find another gear and motor off. Often only into the edge of the woods where they wait until the folks leave and then they come back out.

And you folks that are whining about getting up at oh dark thirty, hiking several miles to a spot that thru some preverse reasoning you figues is "yours" only to have a 4 wheel rider pass you, that's life. //Beemanshits quote











Your the guy that dumps trash to arent you !

Yep, blow boats = air boats = fools on parade, most of the time.

Wow, some of you folks' power of observation is as acute about humans as it is about animals. That is to say, its non-existant.
Let's see, if you own an atv, you dump trash??? Why? When you have the means to transport it off. Also, why would I dump trash on my own place? Pretty stupid conjecture.
Kinda like the assumption by some that if you shoot a magnum (or anything larger than a .243) you flinch.
And I won't even go into the actions of animals. Those deer and such that you see browsing along the highways, byways and expressways aren't there because they're scared to death of vehicles; also deer will come to the sound of a chain saw because they've learnt that loggers leave tree tops that are loaded with nice, succulent buds, and so forth.
Whether its an ATV, a 4x4 truck, even an airboat, there is gonna be a certain segment of abuse. I can't help that, but you know-nothings are using the same logic as the anti's. "Hey, someone used a pistol to commit a crime, ergo, all gun owners are criminals." "Hey, someone used a gun to commit a crime; let's outlaw all guns." "A HUNTER used a POPULAR HUNTING RIFLE to kill a lot of folks in Wis; let's outlaw hunting and hunting rifles." Pretty stupid.

Don't interpret my post as a hate for ATVs. I've had at least one ATV most of my life, and I currently own 2. However, I don't use it when I hunt anymore, although I have retrieved a few deer in the past, on my own family's property, and I'll admit they're handy for that.

I don't think ATVs, or any vehicle for that matter, should be allowed off of road's on any public land, any time, and they shouldn't be allowed at all on land designated for hunting use only, like the game lands are here in PA.

And deer are scared by four wheelers. I've seen it way too many times to believe otherwise. I suppose if you ride around constantly until they're used to it, it won't bother them any more, but I don't want to spend my time in the woods with engine noise droning in my ears.

Critters "SHOT" off four wheelers is as incidental as hitting a deer with your car. Sure it happens, but there are better ways to hunt. Yea, I'll admit that deer do stand alongside the roadside eating in the ditch...however when was the last time you saw that monster buck or bull munching alongside the road?? Only in a national park.

I have yet to hear about anyone ever riding their four wheeler up to an elk, and having the time to blast one with it just standing there. More often than not, the elk are running by (trying to get the heck outta there!!) and a guy has a chance at a quick shot and gets lucky.

If I only got a quarter for every time I've heard..."I've driven this damn thing over 100 miles and haven't seen an elk all day!!"

MG