I have shot numerous whitetail deer here in Pennsylvania with a variety of calibers, and muzzleloaders. However, I can remember very few dropping on the shot and staying down. Each of those were either spine hits or neck hits. I recall only one, excepting the neck shots, not being hit through the chest cavity, it was running, so accuracy was not normally the issue. Typically the animal bolted on the hit and ran approximately 30 to 80 yards. What is the secret to all of the instantaneous kills that are described in this and numerous other forums? Do they really occur for you with frequency?

The only animals I have seen die on there feet where shot near the spine . My best shot on an animal was on a sitka blacktail deer (doe) that was broadside and removed the top half of the heart with a 300 win mag and a 150 grain speer at 80 yards. The deer bolted and ran about 20 yards.

Most of the animals I have shot only went a few feet but the only instant kills I have had were neck or spine shot.

This site may be the best information ever written in one place. www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html

If you hit them in a vital area with a 30/06 shooting a 180 gr bullet that's about all one can do. I know that a 180 gr .358 Speer flat point will drop them pretty quick and keep them down. Something that the other's won't always do but the regular cartridges are ok.

Does this answer your question?

[ 03-17-2003, 17:34: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

It is easy to get instant kills on game like deer and antelope..Use a light for caliber fragile explosive bullet like a 22-250 with a 60 gr. Hornady or a 270 with an old 130 Western Open Point Expanding bullet...

The problem is your limited to broadside shots at reasonable range and the shot must be behind the shoulder and if you hit the shoulder you may be in trouble with a wounded animal that will likely escape and die a lingering death..You cannot take shots with animals going away...Also you will have a blood shot mess on your hands...

The other alternative is to use a good tough bullet that will knock two holes in the animal from any direction, bust any bone on the way and it will allow the animal to run less than 50 yards or perhaps 100 yards on rare ocassions, but will leave a substantial blood trail that a blind man can follow and it will ruin only a cup full of meat. I'll take the latter any day.

Fact: You cannot have it both ways.

The only times I had them drop in their (moose, caribou, white tail and black tail) tracks was with a spine or neck shot, and of course the very lucky head shot (any reasonable caliber) and once with a .375 H&H on a Blacktail through the ribs with the old "silver tips" just sucked the wind out of him and went straight down with a little twitch.

To me this is about 2 things, first off the obvious of brain or spine.

The next one to me is SPEED- to me this is the thing that kills quickest. Ray eludes to it and I concur. My buddies and I have shot a bunch of deer,antelope and a couple of big blackies with a 6/06 and a 70 Noz at 4000 and the 22/250 with 55 or 60's. Shots thru the ribs is pure dynomite! Of the say somehere around 50 big game animals we have shot with that combo only 1 has ever taken much more than a step. The rest have hit the turf right now.

So for me the key is speed and speed.

Just my thoughts on a night I am by a puter instead of a nice campfire. Boy does that ever suck.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

I have to say speed of the bullet has alot to do with how fast a animal gose down. A fast bullet causes more shock. I have shot elk at diffrent distances where the shot placement was identical and the bullets exited but the closer shots knock the elk down faster. I shot one bull a few years ago from about 10 feet through the chest, hitting the heart and guts, that bull didnt take another step. This year I shot a bull at 250yrds. same shot through the chest hitting the heart and guts. this bull ran 40 yrds befor another opening in the brush alowed a second shot that hit the spine. both bulls had very simular wound chanels
Jamie

I once dropped a blacktail on the spot with a 270. He didn't die because I had actually hit him at the base of his ear. When I moved a little closer he jumped up but was still so dazzed I was able to hit him again broadside which put him down and out.
On another occasion I hit a mulie with a 250 gr. 35 whelan. This shot ( about 70 yrds.) actually flipped the buck in a complete summersalt. The deer, which was facing me took the shot in the neck and spine and I believe this complete devastation is what is needed to put them down quickly.

I'm convinced massive nerve trauma on some animals of any given species can be caused by a projectile moving at practically any reasonable speed. It's as if their brain is a circuit breaker and it doesn't matter whether you overloaded it with 1 amp or 100 amps.

The animal's state of uneasiness has something to do with it I believe, but I think some individual animals are simply tougher and more resistant to shock.

Ray hit right on the head. I have seen several animals that have seemed to been blown over. The best ones are when you brain or spine them on the run they flip or hit the ground fast. I shot a whitetail doe between the eyes with a 158 357 at 2150 blew the top of her head off. She died really fast.

I've had so many instant kills on deer, it's the norm instead of exception. Most of these have been high lung shots with 154 Gr. Hornadies from my 7 Rem Mag, although I've had them with 243's, 22-250's, 35 Whelen. Distances have been from several feet to 300 yards. I've also had a lot of CNS kills

I guess I'm the exception. The last 7 deer I've killed in Pa have dropped at the shot. Two with a 260, two with a 358 winchester, one each with a 300 Savage, 284 winchester and 45-70. They were hit in the chest cavity, but a little higher. There is a cluster of nerves in this area near the spine. I'm sure it's the shock effect.

Bob257

It happens, it doesnt happen, It happens, it doesnt happen over and over again. People who look for this "secret" oftan believe they will find the holy grail of cartridges, you know.... the cartridge that hasnt been discovered yet, even though the full spectrum of human interfaced physical cartridges has existed for decades, by hundreds of designs. Many of the same get upset when you tell them a 270 kills deer as well as a 300 win mag.

4,
Just to through in my two cents worth. I have had a number of deer drop when hit and of the ones that I did not hit in the spine the high chest shot seems to drop them in their tracks. I have seen this happen with the 7x57 and the 444 so the speed is not always needed but I know it helps. Bryan

smallfry
Exactly- the more important thing is to get the bullet where it needs to be- If the animal drops at the shot great if it don't lifes a bummer- get your tracking hat on! Want to get a knock down shot make sure you take out the off side shoulder I always ensure the angle I shoot at will have the bullet hit the offside shoulder. If you wait the animal will almost away's give you the shot you need- If not tomorrow is another day-shooting to just fill a tag will get a bad shot and a long tracking job!!!

[ 03-17-2003, 19:53: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Bob257, I have experienced the same result as you.
If you divide a deers body into thirds and shoot for the top third (under the spin, into the lungs) Baam Flop. I have done this with a Muzzle loader(240gr XTP)(on 3 occations), with a 243, with a 300win mag, and twice with a bow shot in this area they made it less than 15 yards. I can't explain it, maybee there is a nerve pocket there or something.

Also, just FYI the first four times I did this was by total accident. (the .243, 2 of the Muzzleoader deer, and one of the bow kills)
All of these shots were a little high, but not intentionally. (This was before I was a gun/accuracy Nut and still a young hunter , about 10 years ago) Once I put two and two together, I tried it some more on purpose, still worked.
All of these shots were at ranges less than 75yards (with the guns), so velocity was still up there.
I would not attemp this type of shot much over 100 yards (about 50 with Muzzle Loaders). After that I am aiming center mass.

[ 03-17-2003, 20:35: Message edited by: Mark G ]

With the exception of the occassional neck shot that needs to be taken thru holes in the brush and accidental spine shots, the most dramatic effects seem to come from shots into the bottom portion of the heart as they seem to literally make the heart explode.

My experience with this shot has been the animal will drop at the shot, jump up and make a mad dash and die on it's feet within 30 yards..leaving a blood path the whole way. I've taken this shot on animals up to 600 pounds and the reaction to the shot is amazing.

DB Bill, My hunting partner has seen exactly what you decscribed on his last 3 deer, all mature bucks. All 3 were shot with a .50cal ML, 240gr XTP, throught the heart cutting it in half in each case! (I should take this guy to Vegas while he's hot! )
All three bucks ran from 30-50 yards leaving a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow! Not a bad way to go either, as far as shot placement goes.

In addition to the brain- and spineshots, I've noticed that a shot to the chest from front seems to drop most animals to their tracks. The best spot is the point where neck (or do you say throat?) meets the chest, although moose seems to drop from almost any shot that hits it between the front legs.

Personally, I aim my shots pretty high on the shoulder and hope to hit the spine or near it. So far I'm convinced that big, heavy bullets with large diameter give the best results. They also destroy much less meat than the fast magnums, which I think is a very important factor.

I put a similar thread to this one on the site last fall and received some very interesting feedback. In particular was this link:

http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/game_study.html

In my experience, the 257 Wby did the best job on "yankin' the rug" out of all the cartridges I've used. The only shot that came close to the quick kills of my 257 Wby was a neck shot taken with a 30-06. The deer shot with the 257 Wby were shot in the heart/lungs so the comparison is apples to oranges though.

Savage99: I've heard that same thing many times here in Finland, but frankly, I don't believe it. There isn't any "hole" in there that could save the animal from being fatally hit if the bullet goes near and below the spine. There was an article here in a hunting magazine where this issue was handled, and the writer, a well-known biologist specialized in moose knew only one instance, where a moose had survived such a shot, and he has seen thousands of moose both alive and dead. The moose that had survived the shot through both shoulders and lungs had been hit by a soft point bullet(.30 cal most probably) about a year earlier, and as he examined it, it had obviously been in a very bad shape until its death. The bullet had caused serious damage and although stayed alive, the animal had suffered from undernourishment and the wounds had only partially healed. The whole animal was stated no-good for human consumption and buried. In this article he stated and made it quite clear with pictures that a moose that gets a bullet through shoulders and stays alive, is an exeption to the rule, and also a very rare one. I believe in that also.

Oh I almost forgot. If you hit a moose ABOVE the spine, you better hit it again and quick, or it'll jump up and vanish in a second. Unless, of course, you're into tracking...

[ 03-18-2003, 02:45: Message edited by: LD100 ]

Most of my animals have dropped on the spot when shot with my 7mmstw or 300ultramag both using ballistic tips.Some take a few steps but not one has made 50 yards and that includes elk and moose.I use lung shots exclusively.

[ 03-18-2003, 08:19: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

On some buck it just happens and with the same shot on others it don't I can't see a patern

For me it is the norm to have animals go down on the spot. Usually I have the luxury of taking the shot I would like best, which is a slightly quartering toward shot to the point of the shoulder joint, following through to the heart or lungs. I find that this combination drops the animal on the spot as would a spine shot, and they bleed out before they ever get a chance to stand up again.
You do get more meat damaged but it's the price I pay for an instant kill.

like JD I used a remington 7 mag with hornady 154's. I have dropped several deer with broadside shots in their tracks...I have shot two that I never saw fall!! the recoil from the gun while standing moved me enough that when I returned to the sight picture..it was gone!...walked up and found both right in the exact spot they had stood....One deer I had a friend butcher...he told me the deer had so much hydrostatic shock the meat was bloodshot through out!! I sent the slug though both lungs, and didnt touch a bone at all.....both were at 100 yards!

I think any deer alert or wary will run after the shot....the deer that drop in their tracks from shots other than brain -spine shots usually does so because it was totally relaxed, and had no adrenaline flow......thats my opinion anyway....Bob

The whole idea is to destroy the nervous system for an instantaneous kill. Large amounts of instantaneous tissue damage or hydrostatic shock is what will kill the animal on the spot, and i believe that it is all luck. I've seen animals shot in the peritoneum (gut shot) that were killed instantly--probably because the shock reached a vital area of the nervous system and destroyed it. But there's just no way it will happen every time, unless you hit the animal in the brain. The reason that that is not always desirable obviously is the relatively small size of that vital area. Have you ever shot a prairie dog or chuck with a high velociy bullet that created massive amounts of tissue damage and hydrostatic shock and had them run in their holes. Happens all the time. It would probably be akin to a 20mm round with a varmint style projectile at high velocity striking a big game animal, most of the time it would kill the animal on the spot, but if the pr. dog analogy holds water, not always.

"What is the secret to all of the instantaneous kills that are described in this and numerous other forums? Do they really occur for you with frequency?"

IMHO, primarily bullet placement, but other factors will influence it. I too, have harvested my share of deer in Pennsylvania. I use a Remington 700 in 06 and use a 180 gr sierra spbt behind 59 grains of H-4831. My point of aim is the point of the shoulder, when I hit what I'm aiming at, the deer goes down and stays down. It may flop around a bit, but it's usually expired by the time I get to it. The farthest shot I've had in PA was about 130 yards. Most were between 50-75. this particular load has, and will produce a grapefruit sized exit wound in even a large deer. Now on those few occasions where I have taken a poor shot, and the animal wasn't hit just right, yes, I had to do a little hiking.
On the other hand, and I don't understand it myself, but almost every deer that I have shot with my 308 has run off from 20-60 yards.
And what makes it even stranger, is when I hit a deer with an arrow in the neck and the deer only runs 15 yards and drops dead.
I thing A LOT has to do with the individual animal and how worked up they happen to be at the point in time where we take the shot as well as placement and ballistics.
Chalk it up as a mystery and go cook yourself a venison steak.

This is a bit off-topic, but what do you guys think about this:
Here in Finland we hunters have quite a common feeling that whitetail deers are much harder to drop in their tracks than moose are. Deer repeatedly have taken shots from 12-gauge shotguns (slugs) up to .30-378 WBY Noslers to their shoulder/lung area and whereas moose have dropped as killed yesterday, tho deer have ran up to 500 meters before expiring. Any comments on this?

[ 03-19-2003, 01:58: Message edited by: LD100 ]

I hunted for many years with a 25-284 using every bullet known to man at the time. Deer or antelope shot with 115 gr Nosler partition - no longer made - and the current 120 gr almost always bolted at the hit but dropped within 25 to 50 yds. Those shot with 100 gr bullets dropped where they stood - but meat damage at times was significant - blood shot shoulder to ass. I use to hunt with a 7mm Mashburn Magnum - a 175 gr Nosler semi-spitz would flat drop a deer when hit but an antelope hit thru the ribs with a 140 gr NP at an ungodly speed would take off and run for 100 yds like it was never touched - an antelope just doesn't offer a whole lot of resistance to a heavily constructed bullet. A carribou hit with the old 117 gr Nosler semi spitz in that 25-284 behind the shoulder went straight leg before he hit the ground - so I sort of developed the belief that either light for caliber bullets or a semi-spitzer that opens fast provides the quickest results.

I'm with Nebraska, the majority of instant kills were with my 257 Weatherby. When I started reloading for it in '81 I used the 100 gr. Speer, not the ideal bullet for the velocity. But when you hit a deer within about a hundred yards just about anywhere in the vitals behind the shoulder the animal would hit the ground so hard he bounced. No exit wound either, but who would need it? Since then I realized that a shot that hit heavier bone might not fare so well and have gone to tougher/heavier bullets but still am getting some pretty impressive kills.

LD100, I'm going to disagree with you and also agree with you. You can definately lose an animal to a shot below the spine and above the lungs. The animal may not survive for long or it might,I don't know for sure, but you may not recover it. A while ago, a cousin and I were hunting and split up to go around a small stand of trees. When we met up again he claimed to have gotten a deer. I called him a liar because we hadn't been over 200yds apart and I hadn't heard a shot. So he took me to the deer. He had killed this deer with a knife! He had found the deer in a weak state and just cut its throat. Further examination determined that it had been shot below the spine and above the lungs. Eximanation of the snow and knowing when the last snowfall was we determined that the deer had been there at least 18hrs and who knows how far he had come to get where he was. As for whitetails being tough, I agree.

I am very leary of animals that drop at the shot. Be careful and watch them for a minute they might just get back up. Many don't, but some do. As an aside, a lot of bear drop in a heap when shot but in no time are back on their feet headed for the weeds.

Chuck

I have shot several moose with my .338WM and 230-grain FS bullets, and the only moose that have walked after the shot was one that saw me and started moving away before I shot.

In my view, speed has nothing to do with instant immobility of an animal such as moose. I saw moose shot with a .45-70 rifle; the moose was maybe 80 yards away, browsing, and a friend of mine shot it one time through the heart. The moose dropped dead and never moved. One thing was for certain, this moose was not concerned whatsoever about us.

I stay out of view in the brush, on a rocky knob, watching a large open field where moose come in to browse low growth and birch, and usually they are not aware of my presence. I don't even stand to fire my rifle, except for one time. In this instance, I had called a moose into the field, and it walked straight at me grunting. Meanwhile, it had not idea I was a human, since it could not see me. It got as close as 175 yards, then it turned to my left, through the trees, so I slowly stood trying to find a opening through the trees, and that's when it saw me. It immediately bolted and walked away, but it turned just enough for me to shoot it through the right ribs, into the lungs/heart. This moose walked 25 yards and dropped dead.

Another (much smaller moose) was in the same area, but only 100 yards away, browsing. I waited about 30 minutes for it to walk to the open, then I shot it one time through the lungs. It dropped by the time I was reloading the chamber for a second shot.

In the same field, but about 200 yards: This moose was eating birch, stretching its neck to reach new leaves. I shot it one time through the chest, right on the shoulder bone (low on the chest). The moose arched its back, and dropped like hit by lighting. The bullet had broken the near shoulder bone, clipped the top of the heart, broke the far shoulder bone, then exited.

The year before last, I shot a moose at about 250 yards. This moose was walking through the trees, and I believe heard me moving around. I had seen it before from afar, so I rode my ATV on the trail towards another rocky knob about 500 yards away. I walked to the top to look for it, and that's when I saw it walking away, and across my field of view. I shot it one time, but right when it took another step. The bullet hit it far back behind the shoulder bone (I thought I had shot it through the stomach). Then it stepped on the clear (right on the trail), and I shot it again, but this time the bullet hit the lungs. The moose pivoted on its hind legs, then dropped facing the direction it had come from, dead. It dropped about a foot or two from the trail, so it was the easiest moose for me to skin so far.

Instant kills happen when the spine or neck are broken, or when the brain is shot on the right spot. Shoulder shots may not kill the animal instantly, but they could immobilize the animal and cause a fast death (moments later) if the heart is also damaged from the shot, or an artery is cut through.

I believe that if the animal is not aware of your presence when you take the shot, and if the shot is true, there is a good chance it will drop pretty close to the spot. But if the animal sees you and spooks when you fire your rifle, there is a good chance it will walk.

Back in the day, my only deer rifle was a 30/30 with 150 grain win power point bullets and every deer I ever shot with it dropped dead in thier tracks. I normaly aimed in the middle of the body in the shoulder. Dropped them on the spot. A lot of people don't like the 30-30 but they work pretty good if the shooter does his part. Shoulder shots are the way to go for me. Now I hunt with a 30-06 and as long as I make contact with the shoulder, he's going down.

This is a bit off the topic but Rifleman 1 if you pick this up would you e-mail me. I too shoot a 7 Mashburn Super and I would like to chat with you a bit about it.

Many thanks

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

doberdogg@aol.com

Atlatlhunter.

I fully agree with you that shoulder shots are the key to success even though a bit of meat gets lost.

That's where I aim with my 25-06 (using 100 grain Sierra's)and in 40 years of one-shot deer and antelope kills I only lost one deer. It went down as usual but then suddenly got up and trotted away. The only thing I can figure is that I shot it or grazed it in the chest. Ironically that would have been my biggest buck.

I'll wade in with my opinion.

I don't particularly believe in the hydrostatic shock theory, for the reason that it should always occur. Any animal's body is predominately liquid. One characteristic of hydrostatic shock is that it is transmitted almost instantly to great distances. It is actually a wave front with a steep attack angle. If it was a big factor, then the old Weatherby stories from the 50's would be true; hit 'um in the foot and watch 'um drop.

Ignoring the brain and spine shot, I think what gives instantaneous kills is a dramatic loss of blood pressure. The only absolutely instant kills I experienced were when using a 280 with Nosler ballistic tips. One antelope I actually saw draw its feet into a fetal position while still in the air then fall straight down. I am talking about kills here, not anchoring animals on the spot, which happens more often. I have had that happen several times with shots near the spine which missed it. This is distinctly different from an instant kill.

With all the instant kills I have had or witnessed, they all had the common denominator of rapid and massive blood loss. I think the high velocity frangible bullet combination gives this a lot on chest shots, since the bullet disintegrates at impact and shrapnel goes everywhere through the chest. There is a good chance the aorta or other major blood vessels will be severed. When you have a kill like this, the entire animal is completely full of blood. I think the reason they are more rare with controlled expansion bullets is that there is less chance of compromising one of these main arteries. Heart shots won't do it, as noted by several, since the heart is a big muscle and the wound, while fatal, is somewhat self healing and takes a few minutes to leak out. If you cut a major blood vessel, blood pressure goes to zero instantly and its lights out. This is similar to when you suffer a burst aneurism or cardiac arrest. I unfortunately have experienced that, and I can tell you that loss of consciousness is instantaneous. I actually went out in mid sentence in a discussion.

Sometimes heart shots are instantly effective. I believe this is due to the same phenomona suffered by athletes recieving a heavy blow to the chest. If the heart recieves a shock at precisely the proper point in its cycle, a cancelling signal, if you will, is generated which interrupts the heart's normal rhythem and it stops beating. Under normal conditions, when shot through the heart, the heart continues to beat for some period of time. This is evidenced by the blood patterns left as the animal runs.

Just my theories.

All this discussion about instant kills.If that is what hit them in the shoulder.That can only fail if the energy is down because of distance.A 270 or 30-06 will drop them every time with a high shoulder shot from inside a 100yds,a 300 win inside 150 and a 300 ultra from inside 200.period Yes even my trusty 30-30 when I was a kid dropped them every time with that shot,but I kept shots under 50yds.You want to tract them a short ways with little meat lose lung shot,but instant kills is the topic of conversion.shoulder shot with enough force is just as good as a neck shot instant death,maybe a twitch or two.

Savage 99 and LD100,
I have seen on three seperate ocassions where a shot goes over the lungs and under the spine and does no damage what so ever...that is 3 times out of literally thousands of kills..It is a rarity but happens never the less...All 3 animals were recovered after very long tracking jobs. One of them two days later. I wouldn't swear to it but I have a notion that it has to do with the lungs being inhaled or exhaled as the bullet enters a specific location, pushes the lung tissue aside and does not touch the spine, but that's just an idea I have, nothing more...