A question for you .280 nuts.
I have a Remington BDL DM that shoots 139-gr Hornadies right into the bull at 100 yds.

BUT, I can't hit squat from the stand! I'm talking head and neck shots around 100 yards. And, I'm missing high.

My 721 in .300 H&H wears a 3 x 9 Leupold and I do fine with it. The aforementioned .280 also wears a Leupold, a 4 x 12. Both rifles have medium height mounts.

Question : Could using the scope at 12 power be my "problem"? Perhaps the eye no longer centers the outer ring ("black hole") in the eyepiece at 12x and my hold is higher??

Help??

BNagel[/quote]

How high is your stand and/or are you shooting downhill a lot?

Also, have you tried shooting groups at different (scope) power settings?

How do the rests compare at the range and on your stand?

When equipment works great at the range but not in the field it is most likely the shooter. That is why I am so meticulous about how accurate I can possible load and shoot at the range in order to eliminate me from making excuses on a miss. Luckily all the trigger time has not allowed a miss yet.
After missing in a stand and going to the range again does the rifle perform perfectLy? If so you have solved your problem. There was a topic here a while back about the importance of shooting from various positions at the range before hunting season rather than just shooting off of a rest all the time. We need to prepare ourselves just as we prepare our equipment.

I think it may have alot to do with technique- are you resting the stock or the barrel on the sandbags at the range? How about on your stand? Is there a rail that you are resting the forend on? If so, it will cause the rifle to bounce and shoot high. Read Wayne VanZwoll if you want to become a first class rifleman!

3584elk is spot on here. If you are shooting of a hard rest like a rail or tree limb, shots will tyo. go high. Try a sandbag or even a pair of gloves under the forearm. BTW, this has nothing to do w/ the .280, could be any rifle, any caliber.

BNagel,

A head or high neck shot on a deer at 100 yds is not easy. I suggest that you shoot at a larger vital area such as the shoulder of the deer.

The thing is that deer move their heads very fast up and down all of the time.

Thx for replies;

12 x at both range and two different stands. In relation to targets (deer) one is barely above ground level and the other horizontally level from stand window to hillside where deer are approx. 100 yds away. There ought to be no parallax effect when I'm leaving the scope at the same power in each place.

Again, does the higher magnification of my scope (vs. 9x) and the way one's eye centers the crosshairs within the scope interfere / affect actual point-of-hold vs. where I think I'm aiming?

B

Only if you are dealing with a cheap scope with lots of parallax. Why are you using a 12x scope on a .280 Rem/ deer rifle? You would do much better with something like a 4x or 6x or a 2x-7x variable. I have killed antelope from the prone position with my .280 at 325 yards, scope set on 6x. This past October I shot a bull elk in the timber at 75 yds on the run, scope at 2x. You NEVER would have done that at 12 power magnification. Did you even read my previous post, or am I wasting my time?

It may pay to keep in mind when you zero your scope , to always do it on the highest power setting. that way, if there is a mechanical defect in the scope causing a change ine the zero, at the lower power setting, the effect will not be so obvious.
This has happened to several scope that I know of, the zero wandering by as much as 8 MOA away from the point the scope was zeroed for, when changing power settings.
Have you checked for this yet?

Cheers, Dave.

I don't know exactly, without shooting your rifle, but I wouldn't be surprised if that 12x 'scope might be part of your problem.

I've been shooting .280 Rem., since 1961. Have two of them, one with a Redfield 2x7 and the other with a Burris 1 1/2x5. I've killed elk, Mule and Whitetail deer, antelope, and Black bear with them, and have never needed more power than what I had.

When I go to the range, I'll carefully shoot five rounds from the bench, sandbags, etc., at 100 yards, just to make sure they're zeroed in. Then, I shoot rounds sitting on the cement floor, kneeling, leaning against a roof support post, and a few, lying down, at 200 yards.

For me, that is the better practice.

I do not think you need that 12x 'scope on a .280 Remington.

JMHO. L.W.

3584ELK

Wanted to know about the 12x part. (I've done the routine thinking part early on, just wanted more from advanced shooters like yourself.)

Already duplicated the owl-ear front rest of range testing with one set up in the blind window.

I read all responses and said thanks. My excuse os I'm working graveyard 12's, not at the range this weekend.

I have a 4 - 12x to better see the target. Did not think it would be an issue. If you want to waste more time on a novice, that's up to you.

Guys, 'splain to me why a 4-12x is a liability when a 3-9x is good? L.W. and Dave? I haven't checked for parallax -- just left it at 12x...

Thanks (anywhere from 1 1/2 to 12!)

B

I really dought that the 12x is the trouble. Sure at higher power it is harder to pick the target up. But that isn't what he is saying.

Most likely it is a case of angle or buck fever. He is most likely jerking the trigger or something like that if it was only two shots the deer could have move.

Paractice is what makes hitting with a scope easy. I have ran combat training with peep sites and with low powered scopes. Then used a couple of rifles with 3x9 on them set at 9X did this with a couple of other guys. Even at 9x are times were right up there with the peeps and low power scopes.

Many of times I have scoped flying birds I have scope flushed grouse. I mean getting the cross hairs on them as they fly away.

A proper fitting rifle and scope isn't slower then a peep or open sites and can be faster.

If it is not one needs to spend more time at it.

The 4x12 is not a liability per se...but having it on 12x when shooting in the field is...even with a good field rest holding crosshairs steady on 12x is hard. The slight little movement of the rifle is picked up as shake. Personally, I don't have any variable set above 7 in the the field.

By the way, you never mentioned group size. You simply say the bull...lots of target bulls are 4 inches across

Mike shooting in the feild is hard at 12x.

Really I know lots of varmint hunters who use a lot more power the that and have no trouble.
I use a lot of 16x 18x and 24x scopes and have no trouble hitting with them.

You still move as much with a lower powered scope you just don't see it a higher powered scope allows one to take care of it. By using a steadier rest ect.

Mike (et al)

All my rifles can put three to four of five shots inside a "quarter" or at least a "half-dollar" with the best load developed for each. In the .280's case, as for a 7x64 Brenneke identically loaded, the 139-grain Hornadys will sometimes touch two out of a 5-round string.

Let me start another thread to introduce myself at this forum a little. Spent 2001 to 2005 mostly in AR Africa-related topics and forums. After some small successes hunting Texas whitetail and an RSA trip or two, I need to "get gooder" as a hobby shooter. Also, when meat hunting (hence neck and head shots w/ spikes and does vs. classic shots taken on bigger bucks) I'd like to avoid messing up shoulders -- our whitetail hover closer to 100# rather than the Western / Northern deer.

Until now, shooting has been based around load development as opposed to marksmanship / being a rifleman.

Look for ".280 Remington BDL DM details : BNagel

Thx

Barry

Thread prep completed.

Will start a project to check for parallax change from 12x working down to 4x. Thanks for the impetus to start it and hope nobody feels ignored. I'll try to keep up at 49-years now and counting.

BNagel

And I'll remember to dial it down to 6x or so before shooting at game.

B

Paralex should not be aproblem @ 100yds. I have a 4.5-14 VXIII on my .260ai. I have forgotten to reset the paralex after shooting out @ 300. My groups @ 100 are still POA. I think it's nothing more than shooter error.
Bnagel, you say you don't have a problem w/ your 300h&h. Is the stock the same, are you using the same scope & mounts? It could be just the way the rifle fits you when you are shooting from the stand. FWIW< I don't see a need for a 4-12 on a big game rifle either. All my hunting rifles wear 2.5x8 or smaller.
BTW, I was shooting today @ 4,000ft & 45deg F. At 300yds I could barely use the 14x power. I can't imagine trying more than that on a 90deg day.

Fred

The .300 is a 721 custom "classic" stock w/ no cheek-piece
vs. slightly shorter Model 700 BDL Monte Carlo on the .280Rem
Significantly different.

Both have medium height mounts, Leupold / Redfield style. No difference to speak of?

I nailed a piggy in October with the .300, out the window of my stand across the way to the feeder @ 125 yds with scope @ 9x. With the .280 in Dec. @ 12x it took four shots to take a doe in the head -- moved POA based on where dust was kicking up, then one miss at a buck at an awkward angle out my daughter's side of that stand, and four clean misses on head/neck shots the last morning at two separate does (still with the same daughter -- makes ya proud!) Maybe I just didn't want to clean 'em?

At the range in January, still @ 12x the bullets went straight into the bulls-eye with shots touching. Guess shooting at game "out the window" at higher power is the problem for me, although it worked great on a duiker in RSA to find him at 6x and then dial up to 9x for the one-shot kill seated and rifle rested on a bush. And, maybe the 721 is a better "stand rifle", fitting long-armed long-necked me even better than the 700 stock, owl-ears bag or no. Also, it is now my "kudu rifle" with sentimental value + experiences attached (whereas the .280 only has an 11-point whitetail plus a few lesser bucks to recommend it).

BTW, I'm working nights and still getting replies. Y'all are sure up late (or early?)

If you insist on neck shots then do what I have always done when buck hunting. After spotting the animal I find it's head in the scope to make sure that I have the right one and then I run the crosshairs down the neck quickly and let it go at the spot where the neck meets the shoulder. They go right down at this shot and there is usually little meat damaged thats worth anything.

If your aiming for a long time however you might get a little nervous if you know what I mean! Take another breath, sometimes we stop breathing, and aim for a spot on the animal and not at the whole animal.

Now I don't know what your stand is like but it seems to me that you have a front rest but not a rear rest and you and I might wooble around a lot on a long shot. Find a way to make a better rest for the rifle. Just a board thats say 6" or more on the front might steady the rifle.

Try to get this neck and head shooting out of your aiming. Since we don't eat lungs thats where to shoot when it's not an easy shot. Better to nip a shoulder than have the game get away.

I don't think your choice of scope has jack to do with missing.

I have a 4.5x14 Luepold on my .25-06 because it serves as a long range varmitter. I shot my buck this fall with it "cranked up" a ways although it's been a while, and I can't remember for certain, I think it would have been about 8.5x. I've taken coyotes way out there with it up at 14x. What it really comes down to is you shooting the rifle more from your stand, and other hunting positions.
Practice pays in spades when the time comes. If you "practice" holding the rifle in sandbags and pull it in when firing from a bench, and then rest the barrel on the window and don't hold it the same, the results can't help but be different.
Another issue may well be the condition of the bore. Did you fire at the deer with a "clean" bore? Where does the first one hit on paper? If you had tiny groups at the range then what's different now? I have exactly one rifle that shoots to the same poi clean and cold, as dirty and cold. You didn't mention some of these things.
It sounds like you did plenty of shooting. Were each one the same? There are clues mixed into the situation if you look for them. The first shot from a clean and cold barrel may go high every time. How many shots had been fired between cleanings?

I think this probably will come back to you in some way. How you hold this rifle, rest it, bore condition, ect.

On the scope magnification, I like 6x for most everything and could probably get by with a fixed power scope. Rarely do you "need" much more than that, and as someone else pointed out the higher magnification amplifies wiggles and heat waves.

As for shot placement, I like the high neck shot when it can be done cleanly. I have brained only two deer ever and one was with a varmit rifle with the scope cranked up. It works very well if you can hit with perfection. You are at this point not shooting this well and with the misses you've had you shouldn't be aiming for anything that requires that kind of marksmanship. Take a heart/lung shot. Your daughter will be more impressed with a clean kill than with a clean miss or worse yet a messy wounding!

Spend a day shooting at a target from your deer stand, in the same area as the deer were in. You'll likely learn more about how you shoot from your stand in that one day than we can ever "tell" you about on this board. Bring the other rifle and shoot it as well, noting the differences. You may find you do something strange with the rifle thats "short". Nate

BNagel,

Sorry for the frustration on my part- I was aggravated because you apparently paid no attention to my asking about your technique. I should flavor some of my responses with the following:

1) A 12x scope on running/ flying shots may be okay for people who get adequate range time- most of us do not. Most hunters I know have a hard time finding something in a 4x scope.

2) A crappy scope CAN cause a miss at 100 yds. I don't mind mentioning names, because my experience was so egregious. I bought a Simmons 3x-9x once, mounted it on my 7mm RM. I sighted it in on 3x, and with each increment in magnification, it would walk the point of impact AT 100 YARDS, one inch. At 9x, the group wasn't even on the target. I haven't bought a cheap optic since, nor will I ever again.

3) Most "dudes" hang a 2 pound, 30mm, high powered variable on a rifle thinking it will make the gun more accurate. Marksmanship, barrels, actions, and proper bedding make a rifle accurate. The optics only serve to direct (or misdirect) the shot. Ask any western guide how well his clients do who show up with a scope that would better serve as an observatory telescope...

4) Its true you must see your target to hit it, however, I take exception to your practice of shooting animals in the head. If you are off 2 inches here or there, you shoot a lower jaw off. If you don't perfectly connect, you may lose a fine animal, who wanders off to die of starvation. Use the vital zone! Its a nice, big 10" circle, and a hit there ensures death.

This is all just my opinion, gleaned from 28 years of hunting and shooting. SHRUG

Savage99, BigNate, 3584ELK plus all of y'all,

Thanks, I'm listening, and this is why I "talk" to AR people (to learn something concrete).

What I'm gathering is, once both scope and round are known quantities, to
(a) center practice around field positions
(b) stay away from neck / head shots,
(c) duplicate shooting conditions from hunting to "bench" / range practice sessions, and
(d) avoid practicing exclusively at high magn'n

Now I have to scheme up how to make a hinged two-window, half-a-box that I can set on a bench at my gun club. Some of the guys on my lease use a 1 x 4 moveable crosspiece to form a rear "rest" in our many stands, all built to widely varying proportions. Have to be somewhat adaptable in trying to work out how to practice being in stand(s) using a one-size-fits-all approach to whatever gizmo I create.

Many thanks, gents. I've got a clearer picture now. (Further suggestions are welcome, but I may not reply before I have acted upon all the advice.) Oh! No shots at game taken with "clean" bore. I clean after 20 shots, J-B after 50 or so, Sweet's sometimes, blah blah blah. Borrowed my regimen from Sinclair book plus AR input. I'm satisfied that "apples-to-apples" are being compared as far as bore/rifle is concerned. Not many random "fliers" outside of shots I call as pulled. I have always wanted to know that it is not the gun or scope at fault if/when I miss. Hate tracking down heart-shot deer that jump up ten minutes after I've "killed them", hence neck / head shot temptation. 'Nuff said. I've worn y'all out.

Barry

If possible, go back to your lease and shoot at a target from the stand. It should eliminate buck/game fever as a cause for the miss(es).

Don't aim at the "head" or "neck". Pick a spot, or hair on the head or neck to shoot at. Should take care of the problem.

See new thread "Shooting pool -- not! : BNagel .280 practice"

Imagine a T-shaped bench at the range, not the poolside shot I came up with (at home) to get my gizmo / idea for practicing shooting from a deer stand.

Take care.

B

Used the gizmo this morning.

From 12x to 4x, group spread was the same, two inches. No parallax change at 100-yds. However, spread indicates that indeed shots from stand window(s) are far from pin-point.

Barry

If still interested -

I found that I was allowing my face to leave the stock early. "Cheek weld" concept keeps my head down for follow-through after the shot until the rifle quits recoiling. Shots are back down "where they belong" ie., same as off sandbags, both for shooting out the stand window and off shooting sticks.

To achieve proper technique I had to get LOP to 14" for all my rifles, and, in the case of a classic straight stock on a .300 H&H Rem. 721 customized, add comb height with a Beartooth comb raising kit.

Cheers!

BNagel