I need some help here.

I will hunting Antelope on the Montana plains this year. Shooting a 338 Hawk.
I have decent loads for the Nosler 225 and 210 partitions ( 2715fps and 2805 fps).

My concern. From my reading - no experience.
1. Antelope appear to be fairly easy to take down - the 338 is a bit much.
2. Shots under 150 yds are rare, with 300-350 yds not out of the question.
3. There is a good chance of high winds.

So I started thinking and experimenting with "loads from a disk". At 300 yds and a 15 mph cross wind with the bullets in question there is considerable change in point of impact. So maybe I look for a bullet with a better BC.

The I get confused.
Nosler list the 338 210 partition BC at .400
338 225 partition BC at .454
The streamlined 200 BT at .414
I would have expected the 200 BT to have much higher BC than 210 partition - closer to the 225 partition.
Then I look in the Speer manual - there 338 in 200 grain is listed with a BC of .448
It's a basic spitzer - these numbers don't pass my expectation test - but I could be wrong.

I have all four bullets in my hand - there is very little difference in the profile of the 210 Nosler and the 200 Speer. The Speer is just a little shorter. Why the difference in the BC.

I think I can get the 200 BT or 200 Speer up to 2900+ fps.

One more thing I forgot to mention.
I will also be hunting Mule Deer with the same gun and likely the same load. Btu not required.

Do I need to worry about expansion of the partition at 350 yds?
Is the 200 BT or 200 Speer adequate for Mule Deer?

In your opinion - which bullet should I use?

225 Partiton at 2715 fps published BC of .454
210 Partiton at 2805 fps published BC of .400
200 BT at estiamted 2900 fps BC of .414
200 Speer estiamted at 2900 Fps BC of .448

I don't trust the BC numbers and am leaning toward the 225 Partiton. I doubt the Deer and Antelope can tell the difference. Actually I don't really want to shoot past 250 yds any way.

Thanks

trigger,

Don't know much about the BC of .338s, but as I'm building a .338/06AI I'd be interested in what you find out. My guess would be the 225 Partitions would be the best all round.

I lived and hunted in Montana for six years, most of it in the plains and breaks. I LOVE eastern Montana. I once hunted public land for mulies in the breaks for three weeks during the middle of season and never even saw or heard another soul.

Shots on antelope can be longish but not always so. I killed two antelope at less than 50 yards. The wind can be a real problem on long shots - the average daily wind velocity is like 30 mph - but when I hunted antelope it was pretty calm.

You don't really need a .338 anything for even REAL BIG mulies. I have two that dressed out over 250lbs on my wall. Both were shot with an -06. One at 75 yards with 165 Speer GS, the other at 350 with 150 Nosler BT. In both cases I kept shooting until they stayed down but found out the first shots were fatal. My son killed one as big with a .280 Rem and 140 BT at 275. Perfect placement and he dropped in his tracks.
Maybe the .338 would put them down quicker, I don't know.

Good Luck and let us know how it went.

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To be old and wise.....first you have to be young and stupid!

[This message has been edited by Ol' Sarge (edited 08-24-2001).]

One aspect of it is worse than you think. At a full run, antelope can do 40 mph. At long range, your bullet will fall 20-30 feet behind your moving target.

My son-in-law and I did a pronghorn hunt in NE Utah--what a blast!! Every hour, we saw pronghorns.

The only thing my son-in-law had to hunt with was my '06 loaded with my elk load, 180 grainers. Even that was too much gun. He got one, and that pronghorn didn't feel a thing. But on a front diagonal shot, the bullet broke her neck, ripped out the heart/lungs, and exited just behind her other foreleg, breaking a rib on the way out. If there had been another animal behind her, I'm sure we would have had a "twofer".

His shot was 200 yards, and his brother got one at about 40 yards.

These aren't big animals.

If I had drawn a tag this year, I'd have used my 6.5x55 Swede, but that's just my personal preference.

trigger,

I think the main reason for the difference in BC's is because each manufacturer uses a little different process to figure them. BC's aren't exact because they depend upon atmospherics and the velocity range they're calculated for, i.e. a bullet at 2900 fps will have a different BC than the same bullet at 1400 fps.

I ran your numbers through my ballistics calculator and this is what I got for them:

All assume the rifle is zeroed for 250 yds.

225 gr partition @2715 will be -18.69" at 400 yds and have 12.73" wind deflection in a 10 mph crosswind at 400 yds.

210 gr partition @2805 will be -18.37" with 14.20" wind deflection.

200 gr ball tip @2900 will be -16.81" with 12.98" wind deflection.

200 gr speer will be -16.31" with 11.85" wind deflection.

As you can see the difference between any of them is so miniscule as to be meaningless, just use the one that shoots best out of your rifle.

Why not trying some factory ammo? For example, Federal 225-grain TB-HE will produce somewhere around 2940 fps at the muzzle.

Sight your .338 to print +1.7" at 100 yards, and the bullet should drop to -7.1" at 300 yards.

Perhaps even a .225-grain TB bullet is a little too much. There is a guy over at "huntamerica" that has developed a very accurate load for his .338, with 185-grain bullets. I read his posts at Big Game, and the title was something like ".338 Magnum and 185-grain bullets." These posts were there about a month ago, so you will have to look for them.

My handloads with 230-grain FS bullets and RL-22 powder produce over 2830 fps at my rifle's muzzle.

Trigger:

B.C. from bullet manufacturers may, in some cases, be taken with a tiny grain of salt. They may be better on paper than in fact.

There are two ways to obtain the numbers, #1. By calculations. #2. By actual range firing. Some of the smaller manufacturers just do not have the time, money, resources nor inclination to actually fire their full line of bullets. So what you get are paper calculations. There's more but too lengthy to go into.

Easier said than done - In actual fact you can get much closer to antelope and mule deer than you may think.

Antelope are by nature very curious. A buck with a harem will check out anything that comes into his territory. Two hunters holding a blanket, or canvas, up in front of them like a blind can lure a buck right up to within a few dozen yards.

The Indians would just follow antelope. They could get closer and closer and finally get within range.

Mule deer bucks will bed down and just lay there. If there are arroyos, quebradas, draws we just follow them down from the head. I've walked up on bucks, in the plains, with massive racks withing 10 feet and they just didn't move. Their racks were up above the brush in plain view. I have drawn my six gun and aimed but didn't fire. Half an hour later we would come back and the buck would still be laying there.

Bucks in the timber will sometimes just stand there and stare at you. I've had as many as three bucks together just looking while I laid down and casually got into position. This will happen where they are not accustomed to seeing people.

If you can establish a prevailing wind, try to manouver down wind, or up wind, if all else fails, and shoot with the wind. You will never figure our how strong a cross wind is blowing.

Kendall Dace

Ol' Sarge

I shoot basically a 338-280 IMP. I've had excellent results with the 180 and 200 BT. Both hold up at normal velocity and range. I push the 180 at 3130 and the 200 at about 100' slower. But if I had to choose only one to use I would take the 210 Part. I get 3000' and MOA accuracy. If I were taking it only for big bear I might consider the 250 but, for everything else I just load the 210 and forget it.

I don't know if you are a handloader but you seem to be. I have shot mulies with a 150 gr in a 06 out to 250 yds. So your choice of a 338 is a little heavy but consider using either of the 200's or a 180 gr BT. These bullets are built tough and will do a great job on the game you are after. I don't worry about the BC. I prefer range work to decide which to use. I find that with the right zero I only get about a 6" drop at 300 yds.

Hey Trigger, I've got some good news for you, every one of those bullets will kill either the Antelope or Mule Deer. So, you can't go wrong with any of them.

Ballistic Coefficient is an excellent tool to play "What if I ....." games with. And it does have a good place for very l-o-n-g distance shooters. But it is one of the most misleading parameters of a bullet for a Hunter. When the B.C. is listed to 3 significant places(as they all do), it gives the impression that the BC information is more accurate or relevant than it really is.

Then you end up wondering which bullet is best based on a BC which is just not the best wat to judge a bullet for Hunting. You should always go by the bullet "design and construction" plus actual "On-Game" performance from people you can trust. But, you need to pick their brain and get details about the estimated Velocity at the Point of Impact, how far away was the Game, where the bullet actually hit the Game, was the bullet recovered(what did it look like, retained weight, etc.) or did it Exit and what did the bullets path through the Game look like.

As a recommendation, pick any of those bullets your rifle shoots well, forget about BC, load a bunch of them(100-up) and go shoot at the ACTUAL DISTANCES you would expect to take shots at Game. DO NOT just sight in at 100yds and then sit down at the computer to see what the bullet flight path is "supposed to be".

You will gain more "useful" knowledge with a half day of Trigger Time than a year of Keyboard Time. And the more you go shooting, the better the shooting position, breathing and trigger control habits become.

Good luck on your hunts. Get a good story to go with the kills and come back to tell us about it.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Well, Hot Core: That's the greatest advise I have seen for a long time. Ray

Hey Ray, Thank you Sir!

I've been afield and didn't get a chance to respond quicker.

It is real easy to get caught up in the minutia and loose sight of what we really need to focus on. I like to do the "What if I ...." Games myself since they tend to stimulate thinking. Just have to get back to reality when it is time to Hunt!

Had some nice Deer in the Crosshair the past few days and B.C. never entered my mind.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

[This message has been edited by Hot Core (edited 08-27-2001).]