The one post said Oregon deer are tiny, why?
We get huge deer here in Sask, but they don't get to eat very good for 4 months of the year a lot die off in the bitter cold. There obiously aren't nearly as many.
The one show said Texas kills a half million deer every year . Sask is the same size and we kill maybe 30,000 a year.
What this tells me is year round access to food breeds a lot of deer some got to grow old and get big right? Is there just not the species that grow bigger there?
I know our deer 'bulk up' for winter but still you'd think pure numbers, better climate and so forth would give quite a few big ones especially in all that managed stuff with food plots geneteic harvesting selective culls and so on.

What do you think a "big" deer is We have deer that top 300lbs and I think thats big . I think you deer are bigger on average but there are some big boys and girls in the lower forty eight .
I would be happy to send some pictures if you would like.

Back to the stove
Turtle

Not true. Not at all.

Take Texas for example. We have more variation in the size of our deer than any other state (I would guess)

South Texas deer - Good body size, good trophy potential. Very good number of deer.

Hill country deer - small body, average to good racks. Lots of deer.

East Texas Deer - small racks (usually) not sure on the body size, but I think they are bigger than Hill Country deer, but still smaller than average.

Panhandle Deer - Very big bodies, can have an exceptional rack. Fewer deer here than in central and South Texas.

I do not think we kill 500,000 deer per year here. I was under the impression it was more like 250,000. I have been wrong before though. Where did you get that number? Just curious if I am wrong or not.

Biologically it is known as Bergman's Rule. Basically it states that the farther north you go the larger in body size on average a given species will be. The reason is that surface area does not increase in direct proportion to body mass meaning that a deer in the far north will have less surface area per unit of body mass than one in Texas. That is an advantage for heat retention in the winter as is greater surface area per unit of body mass for cooling in the summer. Added to this then are also local factors such as foos supply, soil and minerals, etc.

Jeff

[ 06-05-2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Skibum ]

See somebody had the answer
I didn't deny there were lots of big deer in the States just on average.
The half million was on one of those Realtree Outdoors hunting shows or something like that on TNN. I gues you could look up the state Conservation Dept numbers for sure.
Again certain guys from certain states IE Oregon say they are small, and lots in Texas say they are small I know the Northern States where it gets colder and a different species get big and I wasn't trying to imply it was the same everywhere.

I got my answer, I figured somebody would know

[ 06-05-2003, 20:06: Message edited by: Desy ]

Skibum is correct plus the Texas deer (for instance) do not have a need to get big (fat) as they don't go thru a really "lean" period of survival.

Don't forget that the Oregon deer being referenced are most likely Blacktail, which are generally smaller than Whitetails.

Apples and oranges.

RSY

The small Oregon deer thing is not really correct. Columbia Blacktail are smaller than Mule Deer. Oregon's mule deer are every bit as large as any other Mule Deer. What is interesting is the Columbia Blacktail of Oregon are generally larger than the Washington Columbia Blacktail. I think natural selection has a lot to do with it. Dumb deer get shot, smart deer breed. The Sitka Blacktail are even smaller. Around here (Jackson County Oregon) most hunters hunt for meat but would never pass a big buck. At the same time we have had 200 lbs hanging head and hide pure Columbian Blacktail on the pole. The deer that hang around towns are much smaller than the high country bucks. The big boys get poached and the little scrawny bucks imbreed.

I agree somewhat with what has been previously posted.
I am not an wildlife biologist, but as I understand it there are at least 4 subspecis of whitetail deer. Each of the subspecises has adapted to their environment (food, cover, water, weather). This process is call regional evolution (GOD forbid), and involves a certain amount of gene adaption and modification. You will see this same effect with elk, antelope and bear. Also, this naturally occours in other countries, namely africa.
Perhaps a wildlife biologist could provide a more complete answer.
IMHO
Thanks,

The question remains, what do you call a big deer DESY?

alabama ed
You bring up Elk and they seem to go against this deer size opinion. I think that Elk in New Mexico are the biggest with the more Northern Elk being smaller. I understand this is because they do not move as much for the food they require. I believe this is also why our deer are so big here. I think food, travel, and pressure accounts for deer size. I know all about Bergman's Rule but think that exceptions are everyplace we look. I guess that was maybe .04 worth

Back to the stove
Turtle

DigitalDan:

Your answer is this: If you shoot a 200 pound deer, dressed it would be a nice deer.

If my son shot a 200 pound deer, dressed it would be a big deer.

If I shot a 200 pound deer, dressed it would be a huge deer.

Acutally back in NY:
A 150ld. dressed - nice deer.
175-200 - big deer.
Over 200-225 really big deer.
225+ huge deer.

Whats big?
From Sasktourism
Saskatchewan designated the white-tailed deer our official animal in 2001. Here in our more northern latitudes, the white-tailed deer tends to be larger than its southern brethren, reaching heights of more than a metre (3.5 feet) at the shoulder and weighing as much as 180 kg (400 lbs). Adults have a reddish-brown summer coat and a greyish-brown winter coat, with white underparts.

The biggest I've ever been around 'I didn't get a shot but Frank did' Scored 182 B&C
and was 11 th best in the province that year I don't remember what he weighed.
400lb would be BIG, I've seen lots in the 250 range

Actually the biggest I ever saw was my first year out. My buddy and I worked this finger of bush he started one end I the other and walked towards each other so if something pushed out to the feilds beside us or went around and behind we could shoot. Well we were going along and we walked past each other in the bush by bout 40-50 yards so we noticed each other and started towards each other when this huge buck stood up from laying in grass beside a clump of red willow.
He allowed both of us to walk past him 25 yards on each side of him and it wasn't till we came to him he got up.
Needless to say we were both SHOCKED so D runs out the side by the feild in case he squirted out and I went deeper into the willows. Well I was the one ended up with a shot but I was still so flabergasted, green I didn't pull the trigger of my dads ole 303 Brit.

[ 06-06-2003, 03:02: Message edited by: Desy ]

Okay, now we know what's big. 200 lbs would be nice for me or anybody down south...But they get bigger. Bergman's rule notwithstanding, genetics has a bit to do with it as well, and there were a lot of northern deer introduced down south in the '50's and '60's, particularly in Georgia. In the Piedmont region deer in the 230-275 lb range(field weight) are not the least uncommon. Does run a bit smaller. Average is probably in the 130# range for does and 150# for 1-2 year old bucks. They are tough though, requiring at least a .416 Rigby for reliable dispatch.

Considering Bergman's Rule, why is it that Southern Gals are so much bigger than the nawthun variety?

Just for comparison here in the British Columbia interior a typical mature Mule deer buck would weigh in around 275 - 300 pounds. A truely large one could tip the scales at 400. My largest to date weighed in at 360 pounds.

I'm in the midwestern corn belt. Three years ago I helped drag a 120 P&Y 10pt. out that we weighted on a calibrated scale (field dressed) at 295. This was at young deer maybe 3 yrs old? Nice deer but not terribly impressive.

I would think those Canadian bucks also may live al lot longer which would contribute to their size.

BTW - He sure felt like 400 by time we got him loaded up. I got to start hunting with stonger guys.

Oh man... I hate dragg'n a 100lb deer. Glad I don't see no 200lb deer!

hence the old hunters maxim, "if you can't get to it with the truck, don't shoot it dumbass". - Dan

Ya your right ! The world record Whitetail Came from Xenia, Ohio 30 Miles from my house. We have monster deer here dont let #'s fool you.

Canadian deer rule!!!!!!!!!

Where I hunt in the Panhandle of Texas, a mature Whitetail (5 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old) will weigh about 200# live. The majority of the deer I have shot here have prooved that.

Now, I have seen two deer here that I know will be well over 200 lbs. One was a Mulie that I knew well. He was enormous. I saw him many times. Always in the same spot. We hunted him during bow season and rifle season. None of my clients could hit him though. He caught on real quick and I haven't seen him since.

The other was a Whitetail that I saw twice last year. He would stand in the middle of my neighbors grass field in the morning and look around like he knew he was protected.

Well, he was. All I could do was watch.

This is the biggest Whitetail I have ever seen. It would not surprise me to see him weigh 300#.

[ 06-06-2003, 07:57: Message edited by: Wendell Reich ]

I have heard of that Bergmans rule before also. I just didn't know it had a name. Someone wrote into F&S or something and asked about bringing deer from way north to Gerogia or something to get bigger deer. The biologist said it would only be a few short generations before the northern deer would be the same size as the southern deer. I have never seen many deer outside the south other than here in Ohio and I about wrecked. The deer where I'm from in western NC look about like Max of the Grinch. Trapshooter where do you shoot, rifles that is? I now live in Columbus Ohio. I graduate from OSU next Friday!

I meant that the deer look like the Grinch's dog Max when he ties that one sawed antler to his head before he hooks him the sleigh. All that college and I still don't proof read or make any sense

Desy,
Be advised that South Texas harvests a number of deer each year in the 200 and over B&C class, as does Mexico and no they are not harvested under fence in many cases, lots of very big ranches in that area with only 3 or 4 strands of barb wire for cattle....

So. Texas and Canada are very competitive each year in big bucks and they run about neck and neck...Texas and New Mexico also support some of the biggest Mule deer in existence, and this is becomming more so every year..

Much depends on the subspecies. Whitetails go from the very small key deer ,a protected deer in southern florida, to the northern whitetail on the US/Canadian border, which will top out at 400 lbs.Yes Bergmans Rule. Also food supply is important. If they have acsess to farms it helps. I recommend you read "The Deer of North America" by Rue.

savage 949494:

Canadian Bucks are like Bergman's Rules, the same as Canadian Women. hanging around the bar drinking with their boyfriend, gives them that big waist and gerth. Saw the same in Minnesota.

Rogue 6;

Living in Josephine County Oregon, I was probably the one who made the comment about how small Oregon deer are. I got use to hunting the whitetails in Northern MN and Wisc. My biggest buck there field cleaned at 265 pounds. Probably weighed 325+ on the hoof.

My biggest buck in Oregon, was one that weighed 135 after the hide had been taken off and the upper part of the cape to mount the head.

I do disagree with you about the bigger deer are up in the Cascades. The biggest Black Tails I see are the ones that hang around everyone's back yards in Grants Pass and are fed day in and day out by the LA and SF retirees who think living here is like living in a zoo or something.

And I don't think the Mule Deer in Oregon, are as big as elsewhere, until I have been driving on the East Side of the Cascades at night, and am then amazed at what I have seen crossing the highways.

To all out there, the Black Tail Deer is easily one of the hardest deer to hunt, with the exception of Coues. And that is strictly giving Coues the benefit of the doubt. The Black Tail is so timid yet patient, I have seen one stare back at me from a protection of behind a bush for over 30 minutes and never moved.
A white tail will try and sneak away after a while, but not a Black Tail.

Can't speak on a Mule Deer, the only ones I ever see out hunting them with horns were on the Wall down at the bar in town, or lounging in some farmers alfalfa field with a ten foot high NO HUNTING sign.

figures! For dumb animals they are pretty dam smart.

I grew up in Klamath County, Ore. and the biggest blacktail I got was 225 lbs. hanging weight. It was killed near Dead Indian Rd. for those familiar with the area.
That said, it does seem to me that there are areas that grow big deer. Some of the coastal blacktail are quite small, while the farther inland are bigger. I grew up calling the big bodied ones bench-legs. It was taught to me that although they had blacktail characteristics they in fact were a cross with mulies. Hence the short legs, huge bodies, and weird horns. My biggest one has a 4x3 with a drop on the 3 point side. The antlers look like one of each species per side.
I've also seen some huge mulies in eastern Ore. that do in fact compare to mulies in other states. There just isn't as many deer around.

seafire,

quote:

---

Canadian Bucks are like Bergman's Rules, the same as Canadian Women. hanging around the bar drinking with their boyfriend, gives them that big waist and gerth. Saw the same in Minnesota.

---

Ah, you've been here before.

RSY:

thought I would get to you before big nate did.

Black tail are a subspecies, they definitely do not have the same character in their reactions to encountering hunters.

The Blacktail's range is closer to and along the coast of the Pacific NW, from California to Alaska.

In the High Cascades tho, the range of the Mulies coming to the western parts of Central Oregon and the Blacktail being in the high Cascades, some inter breeding does take place.
Those offspring have bigger bodies etc, than the Blacktail.. Most big Blacktail are crosses with the Mule Deer, or descendents of them.

Much like the difference between Roosevelt Elk and Rocky Mountain Elk. We have both in Oregon,
Like the blacktail, the Roosevelt Elk range on the coast and somewhat inland. Roosevelt Elk are bigger bodies on average than a Rocky Mt Elk,,but have smaller racks. I am not aware of any interbreeding between the two,and don't think their ranges cross although they come close in spots.

I do know Whitetail bucks will mate with Mule Deer does, but the Whitetail does and Mule Deer bucks will not mate. Don't know who is rejecting who. However as I understand the cross between a Mule deer and a Whitetail will not breed, and have been told that is a problem causing declining Mule deer populations in Montana.

RSY, Take a little more time to check things out and you'll find that Seafire is indeed correct.

Mulies are hunted much differently than the Blacktail and react completely different. All deer are still deer. The differences are why they have different names. Biologists have proven relationships between subspecies. I just know whats up in the woods, not the scientific stuff.

By the way, they both taste good!

In Pennsylvania, the average age of a harvested buck is 1.5 years. Not hardly enough time for the deer to mature and realize it's full potential.

That is one of the reasons that Pa. went to antler restrictions. Where I currently hunt in Monroe county, a huge buck is maybe 175#, and they are few and far between. We harvested 11 does out of the same area last year and tried to take mature adults and the largest weighed in at 145# while the other 10 were between 80-105#

For 2002 Pa Hunters reported harvesting 517,529 deer... 165,416 of which were bucks

Hopefully the reduction in herd size and the antler restrictions will help with the deer size as well as antler growth.

Seafire Regarding Whitetail and Mule Deer crossing. They will cross both ways. However the Whitetail buck is far more aggressive than a Mule Deer buck so in areas where both species are present the majority of the cross breeding is a whitetail buck on a mule deer doe. Features of the 2 crosses are also slightly different.If I remember correctly the whitetail buck cross has a tail similar to the whitetail but smaller.The mule deer buck cross is very similar to the mule deer tail. Similar to a Jack and a mare gives you a mule. A stud horse and a jenny gives you a Hinny. The mule gives you good traits of both while the hinny gives you mostly bad traits.