Also posted under Muzzleloading, but it seems pretty slow under that heading right now:

I haven't messed with muzzleloaders since I was a kid 40 years ago, but the opportunity to go on a private land hunt in Colorado during ML season this fall prompted me to purchase a ML and get ready.

I bought a Knight Disc Extreme (no need for traditionalism here, I just need to shoot an elk) .50 cal. It seems quite functional and has a surprisingly good trigger.

Colorado requires iron sights, loose powder, and no sabots. As it happens I caught some Powerbelts for very cheap when the Sportsmans Warehouse closed down. They had no powder, but a few weeks later I found American Pioneer Powder loose FFg in plastic straws for cheap at Cabelas.

Cruising the web for recipies, I found a lot of negative comments of APP. Having no experience whatsoever with black powder substitutes, I figured I might have made a mistake. However, my initial four shots at 50 yards from a brand new, unfamiliar gun seemed just fine, and exhibited superior accuracy to my hunting companion's borrowed .54 cal shooting Goex FFG.

So yesterday, I decided to do some more serious testing. I WEIGHED several charges of APP of 80 grains each. The "150 grain equivalent" straws contained about 120 grains of actual weight, so I figured 80 weighed grains would be approximately "100 grains BP equivalent".

Shooting through my Oehler skyscreens at a 100 yard target, three shots with 80 weighed grains under a 348 grain Powerbelt Copper, sparked by a Winchester 209 primer, yielded an average of 1440 fps at an instumental distance of ten feet. The velocity difference in the fastest and slowest shots was only 30 fps. The first two shots in the target (the first from a freshly cleaned barrel) landed less than 3" apart at 100 yards. From that point I started fine-tuning the sights, but none of the six shots I fired were outside of the kill zone of an elk.

I boosted the powder to a weighed 90 grains, which yielded about 1600 fps. It struck a few inches higher on the target.

Overall, I can't see a problem with American Pioneer. Velocities are acceptable and consistent, accuracy is acceptable, the fouling is far less than with actual FFg, and clean-up is simple.

As a virtual muzzleloading neophyte, I would appreciate any comments from more experienced hands!

One basic rule with black powder or loose substitute is to measure by volume, not weight. There is no disadvantage to loose over pellets; pellet weight can vary, but you can measure the same amount consistently. Buy some speedloaders - the cheap ones from Cabelas, keep a few in your pocket while hunting, I prefer to keep bullets seperate in a small leather bag, and primers in my shirt pocket. Concerning A. Pioneer, I too have heard negative, mostly that grain to grain they produce less velocity. You won't gain much more velocity past 120 grains, but it will definitely kick more. 90 grains will kill just fine, but if you are accurate with more then nothing wrong with it. Measure by volume.

I use American Pioneer in my 54 caliber with powerbelts. I have no complaints. Works very well very accurate and sure is easy to clean. I have heard a lot of negative online about AP. But I have yet to talk to anyone in person who has used AP that does not like it.

I understand the concept of volumetric measuring (and also understand that the BP substitutes are intended to replace BP on a volume-for-volume basis). My reason for using a specific weight of APP was to be assured that the loads were consistent for testing purposes. As I said, the volumetric equivalent in APP for 100 grains of BP appears to weigh about 80 grains; in other words, APP is about 4/5ths as dense and BP. If this is true, then a 120 grain-equivalent load would be more or less 100 grains by weight of APP.

What I have found is that the little plastic straws (or tubes) that APP comes packaged in (which are about 120 grains by weight or 150 grain-equivalent of BP) are extremely handy for carrying about your person for purposes of (relatively) quick reloading. My intention is to establish the best load for my gun/bullet, then weigh out a dozen or so of this charge packaged in the same tubes it came from.

Thanks for the comments; all are appreciated.

Stonecreek: Sounds like you're off and running.. getting used to the rifle (I've got the mate to it, and have killed whitetails with it). The rifle is capable of 200 yd accuracy. Do yourself a favor and buy a can of Blackhorn 209. I know it's expensive, but try 120 gr of it for a maximum load, and shoot at 100 yds, then try at 200.. It is a lot more powerful. and could make the difference between elk steaks and none.. HTH Les

I have used APP in a similar set up as yours in Oregon for blacktails. I have had no issues with it at all. Clean up was quite easy as well.

Stonecreek, I think you are on the right path. I did basically the same thing you did,albeit with a different powder, and there IS a relationship between weight and volume, but it is just different for the various substitutes.

I use Blackhorn 209 and it measures almost exactly what yours does, so go with it. I weighed 25 loads that were in the volume measure and they all weighed within a couple 1/10s of a grain different. Close enough for me.

I would not be a bit shy about the APP powder. Use the powerbelts you have and you should be good to go with a little practice.

Nothing wrong with that Stonecreek. I'm not new to Mlers, but new to hunting elk with them as well.

I set up two Mlers for CO elk hunting this spring. I had everything booked, then I didn't draw. Just another PP added. I'm now looking at 2010 and hope to draw.

Anyway, on to the shooting sticks...

My best combo in my Knight was the 348grn PBs over 80grns of T7 FFF lit by Win 209s, which gives alittle better than 1600 fps and groups in the 2-3" range(Sometimes better, but I'm not all that great with open sights). My #1 rig will be my Omega shooting 90 grns of BH209 powder lit by CCI 209Ms and the new Hdy 350grn FPB(tip cut flush). The Omega is giving 1700+ fps and groups consistently about like the Knight(as good as I am with iron sights).

I'm going with the Omega for the added MV as well as easier loading and a cleaner burning powder.

If you can shoot sub 6" groups at the max range you intend to shoot, you should be fine.

The outfitter I'm going with says most hunters use the 348 PBs and they work well.

Here's a group I shot at 80 yds with the Omega:



It's dead on at 100 as well.

Good Luck on your hunt.

Reloader

Reloader, I have a question for you. The BH209 says not to use bullets heavier than 300 grains. I noticed you are only shooting 90 grains. Have you seen any issues, at all, with the heavier bullets? I was thinking about trying them.

This last weekend I tried a charge of 100 grains (by weight -- about a 120 gr. BP "equivalent") of American Pioneer under a 348 grain Powerbelt. Three shots averaged 1750 fps and none of them, including the first out of a freshly cleaned barrel -- landed more than 2.5" from point of aim at 100 yards. I'm sure that muzzleloader fanatics can do better, but using iron sights aligned by 50+ year-old eyes, I'm satisfied with this as a hunting load. Now, if I can only locate a cooperative elk . . .

That's good shooting Stonecreek, I'd be tickled as well with that velocity and groups.

Larry,

Here's the data from their site:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/fi...muzzleloaderdata.pdf

They list up to 120grns by vol with the 350 FPB, but I started with 90 and that's where I stayed I liked the accuracy and the 1700-1750 MV in the 28" Omega bbl satisfied me as well.

I did use up to 110 grns under 250 SSTs and 250 TMZs which chronoed 2150(SST) and 2115(TMZ). The TMZs gave me an 1.25" group last time out in warm weather, so I'll probably run them this fall in early MLer.

I tried 777 with the FPBs and groups were terrible in the Omega and Knight. The Omega wouldn't shoot the PBs worth a hoot either. Actually the 90grn BH209 FPB load is the only conical load that shot well out of the Omega. I think the QLA is bad for conicals, but the FPB must seal fine in it when pushed by BH209. I tried them both with the tip on and cut flush and they were about the same.

Have a Good One,

Reloader