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Back about June, three of us apply for late season cow elk tags on the Ute tribe's Northern Utah lands. Tribal laws mandate we use a tribal member as a "guide" for the 5 day hunt. We draw tags for 6-10 January. Yahoo! Letters go out to each of us describing all the necessaries. About Oct, get a call from a tribal Fish & Game employee, Janelle. She gives me a name and tele # of a suggested tribal member for us to arrange to be our guide. These guides basically show up on a daily basis, point us in the right direction and insure we're always on tribal lands and not breaking tribal laws. I ask what is the asking price to pay these guides. She quotes me about $150-200 per person for the 5-day hunt. No problem. The guy she has us contact wants $350 per person. What?! I call her back and she gives me another name; Karlin Mangum. He quotes us $150 per person plus gas for his truck. No problem. I talk to Karlin about every 2-3 week in Nov and by Dec weekly. Last time was Tue, 3 Jan. We agree we'll call when we get into Roosevelt, our motel location, on Thur, 5 Jan. We pick up our tags @ the F&G office out on the Ute reservation. We call Karlin hourly until 10 pm that night when we head off to bed. We had also agreed with Karlin that he would pick us up at the motel @ 05:30 am, Friday, 6 Jan. I start calling @ 5:00 am, hourly until about 9 am. He no-shows us @ 5:30 am. The F&G office works a 4-day week, Mon thru Thrus. Nothing in the literature they send out nor anything verbal was told to us indicating anyone would be around Fri, Sat or Sun. Just after 8 am, I start calling every F&G tele # we have, trying to locate "anyone" who can help us out. One tele # of one guy, who seems "high-up" in the F&G hiarchy, has his cell # listed on his office voice mail. We actually answered his cell; thank goodness. We share our tale of woe and he asks us to call back after an hour to see if he can find us another guide. Hour later, he's had zero success in locating neither Karlin or another guide. Tribal law, such as it is, dictates we cannot hunt. We don't feel like waiting around longer to end up paying for another nights lodging just to see if a guide can be located. We inform the gent we're heading home after he informs us the Tribe will refund our $375 minus a handing fee. So we waisted 1 days work, 6 hour round trip drive for two of us as we each drove separately. The 3rd friend, thankgoodness, could not make it which saved him a round trip from central Calif. We were out 1 nights lodging. I tried several times over the weekend to contact Karlin Mangum to find out if he was "ok", in a hospital, laying in a ditch, etc. On Tuesday, I called the gent @ the F&G office to arrange a refund. He asked we send letters to request the refund. It came today, 4-1/2 weeks after the hunt was supposed to start, MINUS $75. A $75 handing fee for something we had nothing to do with????? Two weeks back, I tried Karlin one more time. He actually answered! I gave him the benefit of the doubt to explain what happened, thinking he must have had a reasonable explanation why he stood us up. Know what he said? He got called into work Thurs evening, got home around 3-4 am and fell asleep. I asked why he hadn't returned any of my calls from Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. "I had to work. I have to take care of my family". I understand, I tell him. One has to take care of their family, especially in times like we're in. Could't he have called me or someone else? His response was "well ya know, stuff happens". That's when I really lost it. I told him what I thought of him. I told him that I was going to report him to the F&G office to tell them of his laxidasical attitude and suggest they never hire him again. Know what he said? "Well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do". Very glad we didn't pay him up front. So, the moral of the story is, be VERY cautious of hunting on the Ute Tribal lands in Northern Utah. Alan  | ||
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Alan - Sorry to hear it my friend. The truth is, BE VERY CAUTIOUS of hunting with any Tribal member, on any Tribal land, period! Certainly a few of them are good, but I could go on for an hour about tribal "guides" I have hunted with numerous times, and you still would not believe me. They don't show up on time, they don't show up at all. They drink excessively, and they think a 300" bull elk is a 370" bull elk, just for example. On one occasion, when we see what is without question a 400" bull, the same one the outfitter sent us after, the guide needs 5 minutes to look it over, why, I don't know?? And then he decides we should go the opposite direction to kill the bull??? Moral of the story - hunt with the tribes and take your hunt with a grain of salt. | |||
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Never hunt anywhere in the continental USA that requires you to hire a guide. If you choose to hire one, then that's your decision. But to be required to is bullshit. Especially for a cow elk. | |||
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Well ya just learned sumpin bout Injun time and commitment. Totally different from White Man time and commitment.Don`t even try and understand ,it will give you ulcers. | |||
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Bingo!!! | |||
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You have clearly never had to get anything or had any dealings with an idian before, specially on a reservation...... WOW I could tell you some stories about the indians, specially the ones on reservations in canada, where the government gives them everything for free....... | |||
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Well, after dealing with "native" Americans for over 20 years, this is par for the course. However, in certain places I found the a ray of hope. Eastern Oklahoma Indians (the 5 Civilized Tribes) are learning the you cannot "casino" your way to prosperity, and that education is a key component along with no hand outs. In places where you get paid for doing nothing, I see what you experienced. In places where everyone is expected to work for pay, you get service and product. Not all of the Indian hunting operations are problematic, just the bare bones outfits. The Jicarillas seem to run a good operation in New Mexico. | |||
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I worked on a reserve for a year and a half. What you describe is exactly how they think. When they say "Indian time" and laugh about it us whites go nuts. You just have to realize that's how they roll and learn to deal with it. I too could tell you stories that would make you laugh and some that would make you cry, what a sad F**ED up world they have. I'd prefer not to deal with natives if I could help it. | |||
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I grew up on a reservation,and knew what you were going to say,before I opened the thread.  ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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I have hunted with US & Canadian indians as my guide. No difference. Won't do that again. The first question I ask an outfitter is "are indians your guides", if the answer was yes, I was done with them. They are excellent horse wranglers BTW. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Well, I guess I'm glad to see my experience on the Belknap was not a unique situation. Sorry to hear about your ordeal though. Unfortunately, it seems all too common. | |||
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You guys are just a bunch of racists. Just kidding. I'm sorry your hunt sucked. I live near a rez and have heard similar stories. | |||
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Exactly right! | |||
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Unfortunately, the best lessons are the painful ones. | |||
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As long as the beer and checks are for free....there are no repercussions for bad behavior.....and there you have the current state of affairs of native Americans! | |||
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thank you for some very good information. We have cancelled our resevation hunt, which was guided by natives. | |||
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| One of Us |
hunting on a rez is always an adventure. I hunt deer on one every year and it is never dull. The place I hunt does have some of the issues mentioned, but the quality of the game makes it worth while for me. It can be frustrating at times. | |||
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Well here's the deal.....having been on a res hunt I can give one vote for it if done properly. We hired a guide who was a heck of a nice guy that promptly put us on game. We were not required to have a guide but he was well worth it. Other than that, the areas where the houses were were as bad as any inner city ghetto, but with more trash and graffiti. Very sad. | |||
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Living next to the Nez Perce I suggest hunt elsewhere. | |||
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Living here in Alaska "Indian Country" I got a laugh out of your story but certainly wasn't suprised. Here it'd be a mixed bag. You could get a guide that'd be well versed in the local geography, botany and culture and have a riveting experience. On the other hand you could find him drunk/ passed out in the tent on your booze and have to light off the ELT to get out of there alive. For the last couple of years a group of local organizations have been putting on a Guide Camp to teach young ones fly fishing and guiding to take advatage of the local tourist fishery. I've told many of my Native employees many times that they shouldn't be working for me, I should be working for them. So far its fallen on deaf ears. | |||
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That segment of society is begging for intervention from the right organizations, such as SCI, RMEF etc to help them turn their failed practices/habits ans way of life around. It can be done, but it will take time, effort and money to do so...........but the results will be worth it. You will reap expanses of great game holding acreage with great hunting opportunities and help save this segment of society. BUT, if everyone looks the other way( and down on them ) instead of asking their sporting organizations to make some type of intervention effort..........fifty years from now it will be the same as it is now. Shameful really. | |||
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Interesting thought. From a Native perspective it could be considered further White Man interference or influence in Indian business. (Stay out Whitey, this is my mountain/ valley/ elk!) For the REMF it'd be a very expesive undertaking and ofcourse the members and financeers would want to see some kind of guarantee of return or they wouldn't want to invest. To me, the information regarding profitable fish and game management is obvious or readily available. Getting the horse to drink the water seems to be the issue. | |||
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I can't see it ever working.....they shoot anything that moves be it in or out of season just because they can....and it's left to rot most of the time. The only distraction from destroying everything on "their land" is a constant hangover. | |||
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For someone in NH, you sure seem to know an awful lot about the American Native Indians that are spread out all over the west. I really hate to see any one segment of the human race stereotyped like that in such a racially bigoted stance. Just remember it was the white man who put them where they are!!! | |||
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I speak after multiple visits to reservations.....and close friends own a 40k ranch adjacent to a res. Yes, there are exceptions, but facts are facts.....80% unemployment, rampant drug and alcohol abuse, murder and suicide rates exponentially higher than non-res land, trash/graffiti everywhere, etc. Stereotypes are born of truth. I wish their social and cultural situation was healthy and constructive, but how much more help can one group be given? I apologize if you are offended by the way I described reality on a res. And please explain EXACTLY how I am racially bigoted. Do you have one of these signs in your neighborhood?  | |||
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! When you don't have a real argument backed up by facts, PULL THE RACE CARD!  -+-+- "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - The Dalai Lama | |||
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I have 0 experience hunting on any reservations. I did stop and talk to these guys at the RMEF show in Vegas: Rez magazine Not a super impressive publication, but they're just getting started and at least they are trying. They seemed to have an attitude that they wanted to work with anyone to make hunting on Native American land a professional and good experience. Now, although I certainly didn't mind looking at them, having several full-page ads for a photographer featuring extremely scantily-clad young Native American women I don't think exactly furthers their ultimate goal, but what do I know. Years ago I did sell one piece of truck equipment (an aerial bucket)to an agricultural project on "checkerboard" land in NW New Mexico. Nice guys, but it was a long, long process, so I learned a little about their concept of time. There's just no way you could stay in business if you had to rely solely on them. | |||
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"Do you have one of these signs in your neighborhood?" No! Do you? That question and sign alone just answered the question you asked about why I stated you are a bigot!!! It also looks like there is another from NH here too!!! | |||
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Ha, I knew you'd be so fricken' predictable! Let me guess; You assume I'm some fat, drunken', WHITE hick up here in NH, right? Wrong! I'm a minority, just not an ignorant ass like you. BTW, Norton is far from racist, he's just realistic. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Topgun 30-06: "Do you have one of these signs in your neighborhood?" No! Do you? That question and sign alone just answered the question you asked about why I stated you are a bigot!!! It also looks like there is another from NH here too!!![/QUOTE] -+-+- "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - The Dalai Lama | |||
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The "Bigot" business is a bit over reacting and I think it should be toned down. Posters here have simply written about their experiences and observations. Signs like the one above are appaling and yes, do seem to appear more in Indian Country than outside of it. I know, I live in Indian Country. Many AR members have toured a number of Indian reservations and have formed their own opinions based on these tours. Even the NH residents get out once in a while. I believe you'd have to look far and wide to find any AR member that wouldn't grin from ear to ear about indian or tribal success. Yes the white man did in fact move the red man to the rez but today there is nothing keeping them there any more than anyone else is bound to a pre determined piece of property. What we'd all genuinely enjoy is seeing those natives that choose to stay on the reservation use that property to their benefit. | |||
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geez, where do these people come from?? They come in here and want to talk like they're still living at home talking to their mother. I don't think we need anymore PC nazis in here. Of course, that's my own opinion. If it offends anyone, except the dweebs it was directed at, I'm sorry.  BTW, I lived in OK for 15 years so I've seen an indian or two.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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The Native American is suffering a terrible plight and OUR ancestors are the reason for it is my point. It's real easy to say that they are causing their own problems and could just walk off and better themselves. However, it doesn't quite work that way in most instances. I was on a couple reservations in AZ and NM this past Fall and the living conditions in some spots weren't any better and may have been worse than going in a ghetto of any of our big cities. My point is that's it's appalling and maybe instead of pretty much joking about it like is being done on this thread maybe we should figure out how to make them productive citizens since it's OUR tax money paying for what was mentioned in a post on this thread! | |||
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Your stated goal has literally been everyones stated goal for the last 120 years or so. Even the chronicles written from a red mans perspective detail generations of different failed white mans social policies and programs targeted at improving the quality of life for the native american. Believe me, the laughter is frusteration. | |||
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Before you make a total fool of yourself, I think you need to know a whole lot more about the indians than you apparently do. your touchy-feely little plaint sounds good but it lacks fundimental knowledge. First off, those clothes and food and money we are giving the indians aren't charity. It's headrights based on treaties of long ago. Those treaties were signed by the United States. It is stuff owed to the indians. And you have some indians that could care less about betterment. They want to live in a shack and use their allotment money to buy their monthly supply of booze. And if they need anything else, there's always a bunch of bleeding hearts to give the poor red man what they think he needs. If you want to see a bunch of indians roll on the floor and laugh until their gums bleed tell a bunch of Cherokees or Creeks or Choctaws or Senecas your little touchy-feely story. BTW, In OK, indians call other indians Indians. They only use the term "native American" when they're running some sort of scam on a white dumb ass. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| one of us |
I lived near roosevelt as a kid. I went to the reservation elementary in Ft. Duchesne in 3rd and 4th grade (1980-1981) I was the only white kid in my class and I had to fistfight every day back then. My 4th grade teacher was an alcoholic squaw and came to class drunk a couple times, lined the whole class up with a paddle and whacked us all. Fellow native students taught me all about smoking pot when I was in the 3rd grade. I spent the last two years until last november working in the oilfield on Ute tribal land in the basin. I will tell you honestly, I have never met a more pathetic, worthless, scummy race of sub-human beings in my life. They will screw you at every chance, I could go on and on about stories. If reservations are sovereign land, indians should need a passport and visa to leave the reservation. | |||
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I know a guy who bought a bison tag on the Ute Res. Yes, he got shafted for half of the $3500 hunt cost! I would sure never hunt there and suggest that everyone I know avoid the place as well. | |||
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Ladies and Gentlemen: As a 1/16th American Indian (paternal great grandmother) I have exactly zero knowledge or experience in hunting with a reservation guide. But while interviewing for a job last May, I had some clown ask me if I knew how to show up on time for a shift. I was 48 years old at the time. Maybe the clown knew something about me that I didn't know. Funny thing is I'm habitually punctual. On point though, while working in Jamaica in 1985, I had to learn Jamaican time. It is frustrating, but hey, its their country. If I paid for a guide on a hunt, then he or she would have to perform under the contract (be on time always), or things would get pretty ugly pretty fast. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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As to the alcoholic aspect of American Indians, its genetic. They are mostly Asian stock, and they cannot assimilate alcohol. I had a high school buddy, who was 1/2 Blackfeet, 6' 3" and 280 lbs. at age 16. After two beers, he was plowed. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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This is exactly the opposite of what needs to happen. Welfare and intervention have ruined these people. The only thing that will help is for the gravy train to be shut off completely. No more rez, no more checks, no more milking the tit of gov't welfare. When folks have to work for what's theirs and have something invested in it, then maybe they'll care. Indians aren't the only ones who've been "cursed" with welfare. Welfare takes away your dignity and replaces it with apathy and laziness. | |||
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