In Texas, high deer-proof fences are all the rage among the larger landowners (and some of the smaller ones). I've been opposed to high fences for years becuase (A) I feel that they violate my concept of 'fair chase' (to be sure, they don't violate others, and that's their option) and (B) I feel that since deer are a public resource, the deer ought to be free to roam where they choose, hopefully in front of where I'm hunting.

Until this weekend, though, the high fence thing has never directly impacted me. This weekend, I was out at the land that I have hunting access to (it belongs to a friend of mine) and was dismayed to find that the landowner directly to the north of me was erecting a high fence.

The area I am currently hunting is semi-desert. We hunt 500 acres situated between a large ranch (to the north) and many smaller subdivided properties (mostly ~100 acres) to the south. On those smaller properties, I'm pretty sure that they shoot anything that moves, while the large ranch to the north has been (apparently) only lightly hunted. We've seen some good deer on our 500 acres, but they mostly move across it from the heavily hunted properties to our south to security on the lightly hunted large ranch to the north. With the erection of the high fence, this movement will be curtailed, and I expect to see far fewer deer next season.

From a ranch manager's perspective, I can see why the rancher might want the high fence - it keeps the deer he's trying to grow up from getting shot off his property. My frustration is that those deer are a public resource, as much mine as they are his. My hunting property is part of the home range of those deer just as his ranch is.

Mostly, I'm just frustrated and disappointed. I made arrangements not to get a lease and to hunt this property last winter in order to start saving for Africa . . . and its mostly too late to get a lease now.

Anyone know of a place (in TX) where I can go out and shoot a few does (management hunt) some weekend for a minimal price? At least that way I'll have some meat in the freezer.

Troy

Troy
Welcome to hunting in 2003,it is only going to
get worse.Better to enjoy those trips now while
we can.

Even in the most remote places,pressure is increasing.50 years from now they will say that
we hunted in the good old days.

Jeff

Troy,

As you said, you really can't blame the larger ranch to the North of your lease, I suspect it is many times larger than the 500 acres you are on and the multiple 100 acres ranchettes next to you. So the larger ranch owner is doing what he can to protect his herd, particularly if he is under a game management program.

I can fully understand his frustration, I have a similar situation on one side of my place and I am considering the same answer. I pass on good bucks all season to let them get bigger and have a good hunting experience for myself and my friends, which as any duck hunter knows, includes seeing lots of deer as well as sometimes taking one. If they cross the fence, and are more than a spike (which I wish they WOULD shoot, but that doesn't meet their ego requirements)a bigger buck is toast, even if he is only a 6 point.

In some states its against the law to put up a high fence to entrap native wild animals. They can put up a fence but have to make sure ALL the animals that can't get throught the fence are removed from the property.

I personaly think high fence ranches are going to make a worse image for hunting.

Ivan:

As someone who knows someone who lives in Maryland and shoots in the neighborhood of 150 or more whitetails a year for crop depradation control, maybe you should worry about your backyard and the image that 150 dead whitetails would portray, and try to get more and longer hunting seasons in your state. Of course, he, the Maryland Game dept, and the farmers whose land he shoots on don't advertise the fact. BTW, wonder why he gets to shoot so many? He is known to be a good competent shot who gets the job done with no muss, no fuss, and no trash left behind. Which is why he is allowed access and most of your fellow hunters aren't. Nothing personal, but take care of your own backyard and the hunters/ranchers/game dept of Texas will take care of ours.

Like Gatogordo said, In most cases the ranch owner is trying to increase the quality of deer on his property. I know several ranch owners that have tried for years to manage deer herds without high fences only to have the deer shot as soon as they hop a low fence onto adjacent properties.
Most do not want to put up high fences because it cost a great deal of $$$ to erect them and it also voids any trophies from making the record books.

Like I said, I can't blame the landowner for acting within the law regarding his property, but it sure does screw up my hunting.

Furthermore, philosophically-speaking, since the deer are a public resource, IMHO dealing with your neighbors shooting too small deer ought to be part of the price of doing business. Educating your neighbors ought to be the route taken instead of fencing them out.

Anyone else see high fences in the same light as the game estates set aside for the wealthy back in old England prior to our revolution?

If hunting becomes a wealthy luxury activity in the US instead of a common man's past-time, legislating it out of existence won't be too far away.

Troy

Troy,
check with the Teaxas Parks and Wildlife Department.
One option is to put your name in on drawings that they have to hunt several state parks and wildlife refuges. Some our not just doe hunts but buck hunts and some have exotics.
Another option is the Type 2 permits. I think they run around $35. With that permit you will have access to thousands of acres for hunting. They will provide a book with maps and regulations.
Good luck!

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again, the idea that the game belongs to the state is based upon some flawed Supreme Court rulings of the last century. Which have since been found wanting by later Supreme Court rulings. Now, everyone goes along with this legal fiction, except for the Feds when the various states (there was a well known case involving New Mexico, but I don't have the case number in front of me) obviously overstep their authority, (BTW, see the latest ruling vis a vis out of state hunters treatment vs that of residents for more information as well), because most people recognize that there needs to be some legal oversight for the game inside the various state's boundaries. But, in fact, the states, or by extension, the citizens of those states, do NOT own the game, and never did.

[ 06-30-2003, 22:34: Message edited by: Gatogordo ]

Opps, sorry, double post. But since I made it, here is a more concrete example of a Supreme Court decision illustrating what I said above:

In Toomer v. Witsell, 334 U.S. 385 (1948,) Justice Vinson made the statement: "The whole ownership theory, in fact, is now generally regarded as but a fiction expressive in legal shorthand of the importance to its people that a State have power to preserve and regulate the exploitation of an important resource." To this he footnoted:

"See, e.g., Pound, An Introduction to the Philosophy of Law, 197- 202. The fiction apparently gained currency partly as a result of confusion between the Roman term imperium or governmental power to regulate, and dominium, or ownership. Power over fish and game was, in origin, imperium."

[ 06-30-2003, 22:31: Message edited by: Gatogordo ]

This is a tough issue for me, as well. I must agree with some, though, that, at least in Texas, game is NOT a public resource, unless it is on public land. It belongs to whomever owns the dirt it's feet are on. (For an example, examine the laws surrounding shooting a deer that is just across the fence from your property...even though you aren't trespassing, and could possibly recover the deer without doing so, you still cannot lawfully shoot it.)

I don't know of a good resolution for this issue, but if you want to shoot non-trophy animals for a very small fee or even for free in Texas, opportunities abound in the hill country. Last season, I paid $100 for a day hunt near Fredricksberg and collected 2 whitetail doe, one small buck, a fine Blackbuck ram (for an additional small fee) and could have taken as many Blackbuck or Axis doe as I wanted. It was a very memorable and productive day!

Question: if the rancher owns the land, game, etc, can he hunt say a native whitetail at any time of year? Or does he have to conform to the statewide hunting seasons? Also, does any fee hunter that's on the rancher's land have to have a state hunting license to hunt native game? If he truly owns the game, the state regulating when he can hunt it would be like the state telling him when to plant his beans or cut his hay?

Beemanbeme:

It is somewhat complicated to explain in a short answer, but the REAL short answer is that the state and nation have decided that they have police powers over the game, just as they do over some private property rights. This goes back to the fact that the game can be, doesn't necessarily have to be, involved in interstate commerce, and some other legal stretches. In fact, almost everyone recognizes that some oversight of the game and fish resource is critical, due to numerous examples of past abuses, some knowing and some unknowing.

If you want to read about it in much more (near excruciating) detail, check this site out....

http://users.snowcrest.net/siskfarm/fshngm2.html

The state can dictate USE of game animals, much like they dictate use of automobiles through traffic laws. That does not mean that the public owns your car. Regulation of private property has never implied public ownership of said property in the US.

In many places, you must get permits to build a house, drill a well, plant certain trees, and if you have a Golden Cheek Warbler on your property, you have to get a permit to blow your nose, yet that house, well, tree, or warbler are not considered available for public consuption.

Keep in mind, I'm not proposing that this is how things SHOULD be, just how they ARE, and how they will remain, more than likely.

Have you ever used wire cutters before?

The effect of high-fence hunting on the image on hunting will be negative.The % of voters who hunt is very low.Remeber image is more inportant than reality.

Troy,

Don't give up on your present hunting location. 500 acres with hunting pressure that moves the deer in your direction, ..... hmmmmm. So what if they run into the high fence and can't get off your hunting place. (thats the way I look at it) It is probably very likely that you will find a couple of doe's or even a nice Buck or two.

You never know ....... It is worth a try.

Good luck.

Mark.

RMK:

Cutting a fence with cattle or crops behind it is a felony in Texas, if you survive being caught.

There is a flip side to "high fencing". Around here they simply fence of private lands and during hunting season the deer easily hop the fence out of public lands and into the private land owners "safe haven". The deer are smart enough to take advantage of that, and the result is that many public land hunters who hunt near private land go home empty handed while the owners of the safe havens are able to garantee high dollar trophy bucks to their clients. They have the balls to place their garanteed trophy adds right in the damn proclimation. This has ruined more than one of my favorite locations.

At least if the fence were high enough then the deer that began on public lands would remain there. I find it rather hippocritical that anyone who shoots a deer is not allowed to sell the meat, yet land ownership entitles individuals to exploit wild animals to the fullest extent. Its become a crooked, big money game just like oil and that is sad. My answer is to simply try to locate areas well away from private land which is getting harder to do all the time.

Wstrnhuntr:

Apparently you know about as much about the oil (that's earl in Texan) business as you do private property rights. Both of them are more highly respected in Texas. Go back to your multiple wives or is that mothers and sulk.....

I'm curious, if the private land owners own the deer, and wildlife, then why to us hunters "pay" hunting tag, and licence fees? We have a normal barbed wire fence around our property to run cattle in, and the deer can jump over in either direction. But, in the west, a vast majority of our land is owned by BLM, USFS, so it is hard to argue the wild game belong to you. I have seen those game ranches in Texas with the tall fence. But it seems some of those ranchers have african game also on the land. Personally, I dont like the concept, because if they "really" belong to you, why do they hop the fence to go somewhere else, or better stated, before you owned them, why didnt you put your tall fence up to keep your neigbors game out. I actually roughnecked for a few years also, so I do know something about oil............

Troy, I agree the high fence builders are illegally siezing control of a public resource, just as if they dammed a river. Big money allows criminals to behave as they wish far too often. If this were not the case OJ would be in prison awaiting execution!!!

Any time the term "high fence" is used (especially in the Big Game hunting Forum) there are bound to be all sorts of critics. Even if a place the size of Oklahoma were fenced some of these guys would not be caught dead hunting in it!

To answer Troys question, put aside all your pre-conceived notions about fences.

Ok, let's start fresh. A high fence is a boundary that slows game movement. It does not stop it ... trust me. Water gaps will go out, deer will find holes, a few will jump it. Yes a Whitetail can jump a high fence, but only a few of them know they can.

A buck in the rut is apt to jump it if there are does in heat on the other side. They can and will do this.

Troy stands to benefit in a few ways. He says deer move through his place to seek solitude from the 100 acre plots. Well, I guess they will just have to stay on the 500 acre place, huh? Not too bad a deal for Troy if you ask me.

After a few years, the high fenced ranch will have probably managed their herds pretty well. What if one of those big old deer gets out of the fence? Looks to me like Troy might have an opportunity at him first!

The fence is not a bad thing. It is possible to use it to his advantage.

Carry on Troy. Do not worry about the fence. It may change some of your methods, but I seriously doubt it will negatively effect your hunting here.

Good hunting.

Wendell

How do you handle the interbreeding between Deer species if Deer can escape the fenced property?

In WA and Oregon you are not allowed to have any native game behind a high fence. All native game belongs to the State (people) and cannot be owned by any individual. You are also not allowed to have any 'non-native' game that can breed with any native game.

Fences have a way of breaking,hell most ranchers spend a large portion of time making repairs. Better then wire cutters is a shovel,deer would rather crawl under a fence then over it. So gordo with your shit house lawyer skills,is using a shovel a felony also? As for the shooting,wow that sounds real scary. I really like your scenario there wendell,I guess anyone that's fuckin' stupid enough to spend a 100 grand on deer management deserves anything they get. By the way,you running into a car isn't the same as cutting through five dollars of fencing supplies.

[ 07-01-2003, 07:20: Message edited by: RMK ]

Troy, I went to your hunting website, you have some nice horns on the wall. Nice site!

Capt Jack:

That's what the smiley face was for, and I was responding in kind to a prior post, but if you don't like what I say, either don't read it or go fuck yourself. Now, is that polite enough for you?

Wstrnhuntr:

Your logic continues unaffected by facts.

Capt jack:

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Capt Jack: I agree that real Texans have class. I was always taught that profanity was the strongest expression of a weak mind.

Hunting for big game in this country will most likely be gone for people below the 50% tax brackets within 20 years. I don't have a single hunting partner that can afford to go elk hunting, even a public land hunt. The fees for the western states have reached the point that the average guy with a mortgage and kids in school can't, in good concience, take the funds needed for family expenses for something as non-essential as sport hunting.

I have a couple of friends near Victoria that have given me open invitations to come and kill all the hogs I want, free, deer on the other hand will cost me a discounted lease fee of $2500.00, what pals.

All we're doing is repeating history with the old nobility of Europe being replaced by those with enough money to buy the previously inherited privileges.

[ 07-02-2003, 09:30: Message edited by: TERRY8mm ]

Are you sure the neighbor is fencing all the way around his property? It's possible that he's just trying to curtail deer movement in one direction -- I've read that's a common practice in the type of situation you describe, and obviously saves a lot of money on fencing.

John

Funny I own Land it Texas and I was told that I own the top soil and the buildings on it!! I can't drill for oil because I don't own the rights to the oil. Can't mine for ore -don't own the rights to it!! So what make you Texans think you own the game that run on it!!!! And the fences I've seen in the Hill country no deer can jump!! They are 15' or better!! Money is the only reason the fenses exist!!

[ 07-02-2003, 23:50: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

I grew up on a large Texas ranch and have ranched in Texas myself...

The State of Texas does own the game. When you sell one of the deer you actually sell only a trespass fee...

If the rancher owned the deer then he could shoot them anytime he wanted, and no one would be obligated to buy a state hunting license...

Texas parks and wildlife cannot trespass and manage your game unless you ask their assestence..they can trespass to catch a game violator.

Atkinson:

I repeat, the State of Texas, nor any other state owns the game, see the various SCOTUS decisions cited above. The State of Texas, and all other states, do have policing powers over the game and the use thereof, just as someone analogized that they do over automobiles. They don't own them, but they control how you use them.

And, while they like you to think so, Texas Game Wardens, nor any others can not come on private property without permission unless they have concrete evidence that a game law is being violated. In spite of what they say and hope people believe, their enforcement powers don't overrule various sections of the Bill of Rights, primarily the Fourth Amendment.