I'm looking for some ideas here. Last year I attempted, for the first time, to book a hunt through an outfitter. To make a long story short, he took my $800 deposit; called me a few months later to say he'd overbooked the ranch and would I be interested in a diferent (more expensive) hunt which I declined. After nearly a hundred phone calls and twice as many lies, he still hasn't given my money back. I filed a civil action against him and now have a judgement against him. He admits he owes the money but doesn't seem to care. Any ideas?

Tools,

Judgements have to be enforced. I don't know what state you are trying to collect in, but around my neck of the woods you can have the marshall's office seize property, or checks coming in the mail or money coming into the cash register.

jim dodd

TMT,

Well you are going about it in the right way, geep your guns blazin!

Obviously $800 is not enough to sue over and the outfitter knows this.

Send a letter to SCI and Don Causey w/The Hunting Report If you are not a member, become a member and then do it.

Outfitters do not like to see their names printed with negative comments.

Go get 'em cowboy!

I would contact the state or provinces outfitters association and tell them your story.Also contact the association of booking agents or any booking agents you know.Bad publicity will cost him bookings and take money out of his pocket.It also will reduce the chance of other people being taken by this outfitter.

There was so much more clarity about these matters in the 1880s. I don't think I need to elaborate.

Russ

Well
to bad to hear this happed. I suggest you keep on working the legal way. I would properly done something more drastic, but that is nothing I would advise anyone to do. I guees that the word would spread if you published his name on some forums on the internet.

/ JOHAN

what is the outfitters name?

what is the outfitters phone number?

what is the outfitters address?

If you have a judgement than it is public knowledge, and maybe you can make it more public right here, unless it is agians the servers policy to slam the sham.

I am just wanting to make sure that I do not get ripped off, so I am asking so that you answer is in response to an inquiry, and not reckless namedragging on your part.

In the old days the answer would be found under the varmint hunting forum, or maybe the small caliber forum.

Amen, Russel, Amen!
If you have the document, there's nothing wrong with posting it everywhere you can.
I'd definitely take out an ad in the loccal paper where he lives, and slam him, cost a few dollars, but well worth it.

I agree with those that suggest you make the name public. Since you have a judgement and he admits guilt I don't think it's over the line. Sometimes people do go overboard with public announcements of getting ripped off. But it is easy to sort those folks out and consider the source. We as hunters have a great tool with these forums to get the word out on these rat bastards that cheat us out of our money. They also cheat their profession and the sport in general. dempsey

Judgments are a part of my business, and the fact is, it's usually easier to get one than to collect one.

You have rights but enforcing them could be difficult and time-consuming. How much is your time worth?

Sometimes you can sell a judgment to a collector and get some of your money--depends on how collectible the judgment is. Some are worth fifty cents on the dollar, other maybe ten cents. Some aren't worth buying.

Post your situation on as many websites as possible, report the SOB to Causey and SCI, and put his feet to the fire.

Lowe's had some neat little belt sanders on sale last week.

EXACTLY THE REASON I STOPPED GOING TO NEW MEXICO AND CANADA!

My friends and I used to spend several thousand dollars a year in New Mexico,on bow hunting trips.Until they passed the mandatory guide laws. We stopped cold turkey. I won't even spend the night in that state any more when traveling.

We went to Canada for 15 years for fishing, deer and some years bear hunting. When they passed that stupid guide law we stopped going, not even fishing.

My wife and I used to go to Toronto at least 2 long weekends a year. We have never gone back.

The only recourse we seem to have nowdays, is to withold our money.

I really miss my hunting trips to N.M.,I spent 10 years learning my hunting area,I'll be damned if I'll pay some so-called guide to interfere with my valuable time off.

I figure that I now save $15k.a year, by hunting and fishing at home.

Many great ideas here. I'd do all of them including turning over the judgement to a collection agency. Do whatever you can to bury his credit rating. File liens, whatever it takes. An unsatisfied judgement won't go away until he pays. Then HE will have to clear his rating. I'd spend $8,000 to collect $800 from this guy if I were adequately pissed. Talk to an attorney so you don't inadvertly put yourself in a trickbag, then commense firing!

Simply stated, you have to go get it.

You must be willing to spend $8000 to get your $800 back - and this "outfitter" has to know it.

He's stolen from you just as if he broke into your house and took the money from your wife's purse. It's not just a matter of the money. If it is to you, then just chalk it up to a bad experience.

If you're so timid as to decline to even post his name and address and phone number here, it's not likely that you're seriously interested in getting repaid. If you've really wasted a hundred phone calls on this guy, he already knows that you're not going further than that.

If you're serious about getting your money back you can get it and it doesn't involve violence. Have you considered changing your handle to "Sombody's Tool"?

If you have a judgement against this guy, drive to the area, go to the sherrif, and get them to go to his home or business, and take something worth the money. Or take something slightly more valuable, sell it and send him the difference.

I know that years ago, we would get the sherrif and take whatever we wanted to recover our money. Usually the police will go along just to shut you up and get rid of you.

I would suggest a nice rifle or some really good optics if available.

My dad paid a guy 50 percent down on a septic system, that never got installed. Dad won in court and never got paid, so one day I told him to write me a reciept for for the judgement, so I could handle it. I went the next day, found a sherrif and went and took the guy's backhoe , truck and trailer.

He showed up with cash in 3 hours.

Not that this will help you now,but... When I do
a guided hunt I book through a booking agent. I
have used him for the last 10 years or so and have
no problems at all.It costs you nothing to use one
and is priceless service.I know this is hindsight
but thats my .02
Jeff

A few years ago, my ex-wife (everyone got one of those?) had a late elk permit in Gardner, Montana.
The wolves had moved the elk back in the mountains, so she decided to hire an outfitter to get use of a horse. She ended up with Slip and Slide Ranch just past the check in station.
Without going into all the details, the guides and outfitter pretty much broke every law on the books.
We reported this through TIPMONT, the law enforcement assistance line in the state. The local warden didn't wnat to do anything, as he was buddies with the rancher.
After calls to our state representative and the governor, action was finally taken, and undercover agents were put in on a hunt with these slobs, and it was a carbon copy of my wifes hunt.
They were taken to court, three of the five guides plead guilty immediately, but the outfitter and his son plead not guilty and went to trial. It took us two trips to Livingston to testify, ten hours round trip, plus gas and expenses.
They were finally found guilty, and had thier wrist slapped way too gently. They should have lost thier license, but the good ol' boy network was in play down there. The county prosecutor was pissed. It's all on the records there.
We had meetings with the local warden captain in this region, found one of his officers wives had also had the same problem with these assholes, but didn't push prosecution as it was out side his region.
TIPMONT was supposed to pay for expenses for our lost time at work and expenses, but we never recieved a dime from them. I have no respect for them whatsoever now. They proved thierselves as big of slobs as the outfitters were. As many others here in Montana, we didn't have a pot to piss in at the time, and still need to borrow one occassionally. Thanks, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, & Parks!

TOOLS,
I'd take it as a favor if you would PLEASE identify this individual. I might be his next victim. In most states, the Fish and Game Department likes to hear about these people. It might put his state guide license on the block. Good luck, I hope you get your money back.

Yes , publish his name and address , that�s what will hurt him most in the future . I hunted with a guy in Suffolk , England , last November and he and his so-called stalking was not worth spending time and money to go to England at all .
I returned home earlier than expected and my husband cancelled his hunt with that guy rightaway . He tried to play some games with us , delaying the payment of my husband�s hunting fees , which had been paid in advance , until I finally mailed him : " Listen , chap , if we don�t get our money within the next few days , I�ll write a nice article to the BASC ( British association for conservation and shooting ) and publish your name in sporting gazettes like the Shooting Times and all hunting forums all over Europe , which I ever heard of !"
We had our money within 1 week !

Blame the outfitters in New Mexico. They lobbied their congressmen to pass the law so no out-of-state hunters could hunt without them. It was just pure greed.

I was born in New Mexico and hunted there for fifteen years at least in the Black Range, Sacramentos, and the Gila. My job took me in to Texas and that was the end of it. I wasn't going to go back to New Mexico and have some guide with half a dozen years experience tell me how and where to hunt. I would just as soon have a wart on my ass.

Some of the outfitters are the only ones who may have come out on the deal. The out-of-state hunters lost of course, and the State of New Mexico lost. The politicians need to make a sign that reads S-T-U-P-I-D and hang it around their necks.

Based on input here I am posting this gentleman's name and business name. I recommend anyone considering doing business with this individual contact me and I will provide details and documentatation.

His name is Rob Holloway, and his outfitting business is called US Hunting Adventures. He is a registered guide in New Mexico but his outfitting business is not listed on the New Mexico Game & Fish web page. According to him, in addition to his other ventures he is developing a game ranch somewhere in the area of Chama, New Mexico. I wish his investors good fortune.

Tools, I understand you already have a civil judgement against this guy. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to collect on them. This is particularly true if the dollar amount is relatively small. I do think posting this guys info in every public forum is a good way to go. A little revenge if not justice. I might suggest however checking with the county prosecutor. Im no lawyer but it seems to me that this comes under "bait and switch". This is considered to be theft by deception and is definitely a prosecutable offense in most places.

I believe that the Postal Dept. may help if any aspect of the fraud was conducted via the Postal Service. They have a heavy hand where mail fraud is involved.

Toomany Tools-
A quick web search turned up that Rob Holloway is a featured speaker for an operation called Spiritual Outdoor Adventures. Seems this is a Christian outreach program founded by an evangelist named Jimmy Sites www.jimmysites.com

Maybe Brother Jimmy could be persuaded to enlighten Brother Rob with some of Jesus' teachings.

I'm getting sick to my stomach. There's a special place in hell for some people.

WRT sheriff's enforcement of a judgement; it is a real ad hoc proposition. Occasionally, they will help you out with enforcement, especially if you have a good realationship with him. Usually, judgements are put on the bottom of the "things to do" pile, and never get done. It all depends on the individual officer.

If you want to pursue it, you can file to garnish wages (if he has any employment-type income) and/or file a lien against his property.

Also, the local newspaper in his hometown might be interested in the story as a news item.

Good luck.

If, in fact, his business took place across a state line you should contact the FBI..

I'm one the most hated men in America....I am a bill collector

If you have obtained a judgment, you now need to execute on it. While snagging equipment and guns and the like sounds like fun, it's expensive (need to put up a bond probably), and if you dont want the gun or whatever, you have to sell it. Pain in the ass. I'd find out what bank he uses and attach his checking accts, savings, etc. You also get the satisfaction of all his checks bounceing

See Russell E Taylor's signature for the answer.

I know how you feel, i went on caribou hunt in quebec and lost my 2 set's of antler's, found out latter through dozen's of phone call's, quebec air went tit's up and the employies were ripping off the hunter's.(left velvet on antlers) big mistake i am sure they went to black market.

Fraud is the easiest way to go to prison and anything $500 dollars or above is a felony.

First, I want to thank all who have offered advice on this issue.

My saga has now come to an end. I happen to work with a guy who is a non-practicing licensed attorney and he provided me excellent advice. I had the Sheriff serve Mr. Holloway a court issued subpoena for his personal and business tax and bank records. Apparently, he was not interested in providing me this information and did not want to be held in contempt of court by ignoring the subpoena. Two days after being served he called me to arrange a meeting so he could give me a check; certified of course. He came to my house and apologized for all his lies and asked me to not distrust all outfitters because of his actions.

Thanks again for all your help. If you have any question on how to have a subpoena issued I might be able to help.

Toomanytools

With a judgement in hand and no monetary gain to be had you should now file Ethics charges against him with SCI. I think that I have seen him at the SCI convention and if you are a member you can get him put on probation, thrown out or something in between. That's one of the advantages of SCI over other groups. You owe it to the rest of us schmucks to protect us from these guys.
As Rusty says 'We band of Brothers"