This thread was inspired by the "accuracy with big game rifles" thread.

I cant think of a more difficult shot than the off hand shot, and yet it is one of the most commonly employed shots, usually out of nessesity. It is nobodys favorite but in the real world it is absoloutly essential. When I can I favor the sitting down shot using my knees to steady the shot but very often this not an option because of lack of time, line of sight restrictions and so on. And furthermore accuracy can be very difficult to obtain off hand, in fact I dont recall EVER seeing a thread about who can shoot what off hand. As soon as I know what I can do I will share it but frankly Ive never taken the time to find out, my bad..! Wouldnt it be educational if everyone who reported the MOA/sub MOA groups they are getting with "X" rifle also included what they can do with it off hand?

So I would like to learn more about how I can improve my off hand shooting. Of corse an accurate well ballanced rifle to begin with is a good idea but Im looking for technique.

One thing I like to do is practice steadying myself when Im tired. For instance I will pick a target in the process of hiking up a hill and try to hold the crosshairs on it, sometimes it is very difficult but I think learning to relax is the key.

Please share your ideas/knowledge. I have no doubt that I can improve in this reguard.

[ 03-07-2003, 21:04: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Buy the book "Modern Highpower Shooting, from beginner to high master" by Randolph Constantine.

Read the chapter titled: "Learning how to shoot better standing", then buy an air rifle and do the practice regime he describes, both with air rifle and with CF rifle.

Then mix in hunting scenarios such as how fast can you get two shots off standing and still hit the portion of the target equall in size to your quarry's vital area.

A stock that fits,a scope that is mounted favorably to that stock and a great trigger are my focal points.

Amazing the difference "fit" makes and it is not to be slighted..............

I have shot sihlouette and it helps you become a better shooter through repetition and diligence.The cpmetitive nature makes you strive to be better and practice. I think a sling is THE biggest thing to help a standing shooter...then the fact that you dont want to jerk the trigger as the sight pictures goes by. I have found that by holding as steady as possible( and it may seem not too steady) and just slowly put pressure on the trigger...(not making a connection between the trgger pull and the sight picture)and concentrating on keeping the gun steady as possible and then........wham!!!!!!! it goes off!!!!!and there was no secondary thought or motion made.....I used that method ( without sling) to shoot sihlouette and although many times I thought my sights went off the target and didnt react ...just kept trying to keep it steady around the center mass...I found I hit way more targets....even when the trigger broke, and I may have thought "thats a miss" sure enough it was a hit....good luck, and realize....there is an option called "NOT SHOOTING"......bob

It is very important to know how to shoot well from off hand. And how far you can consistantly do so. A first class trigger helps here more than anything. Fit and balance are second. That includes scope fit.
Nothing helps more than practice, including dry firing. I always do some cheeking, and dry firing when I examine one of my rifles.
I would say off hand practice, and knowledge of one's personal limits, are so important, they limit the opportunities I allow myself to take. Nothing ruins a hunt faster than a miss, or a wounded animal. I will not shoot unless I know it is probable I will make the shot. I don't hope I'll make the shot. I know from my own under pressure practice. E

While shooting highpower rifle competition differs greatly from field conditions, offhand shooting is offhand shooting and many of the methods learned on the range can be used in the field.

ksduckhunter's recommendation of using an air rifle for practice is an excellent method of improving offhand skills. The air rifle, due to very low velocity, requires lots of concentration and follow through.

Offhand is usually the position that separates the winners from the competitors in HP shooting, therefore, there is no substitute for trigger time. Dryfiring is an excellent tool in learning where you can improve technique and when combined with the air rifle, one can hasten the learning process. By applying the techniques developed dryfiring and shooting air rifle to the highpower, you will see a rapid improvement in shooting skills.

As Big Stick said, the rifle must fit and have a good trigger. One trick David Tubb mentions in his book "Highpower Rifle" is to back off on the over travel adjustment on your trigger for better offhand scores. While it feels a little strange at first, this one change resulted in a gain of 3 to 4 points for me. I have since done this to my hunting rifles as well.

A rifle that is muzzle heavy seems to hold steadier in offhand than a lighter rifle IMHO.

Wstrnhuntr

quote:

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Wouldnt it be educational if everyone who reported the MOA/sub MOA groups they are getting with "X" rifle also included what they can do with it off hand?

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Have shot several 20 shot strings that were 1.25 moa or slightly less using iron sights from prone position (shooting coat, sling, etc.)with my target 30-06. Offhand, with that rifle (shooting coat but no sling) usually shoot between 92 (average) to 96 (on a good day). That would translate to all but 4-8 shots in the 10 ring (3.35") and the 4-8 shots in the 9 ring which measures 6.35". The X ring is 1.35" and usually have 1-3 shots in it out of the ten shots.

Now you know why I avoid offhand shots @ game if at all possible!

Nothing can take the place of trigger time to improve offhand or any other shooting skills.

Regards,
hm

I have shot more rounds offhand than any other way. Im just now getting around to joining a range, before we would usually just go find a place to shoot that was convenient, almost always less than 100 yards. We would shoot the pistols, and then take the brass and set them up on end on a log 20-25 yards away. Then shoot 'em off the log with 22's offhand. I put a heavy barrel on my 10/22 for this practice. I think it really increased my offhand skills. My buddy and i would take turns until one of us missed a shell. It's dirt cheap, a lot of fun when you make it competitive, and pretty effective in increasing your skills i think. 9mm brass is pretty darn small!

Western Hunter,

I have done target shooting that involved off-hand rifle shooting, in particular high-power rifle and metallic silhouette -- the game where you shoot at animal cutouts from 200 meters to 500 meters. I have also gone to Gunsite for rifle training, and recently went with my wife to Front Sight where we did their two-day hunting rifle course.

Between the two, target shooting can help you with the fundamentals of sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. Those skills will transfer directly to the hunting field. They will also help you with prone and sitting positions, which you can use in the field. Sitting being useful, along with the improvised field positions.

To do what you want to do, go to Gunsite or one of the good shooting schools where they will teach you. There are also good individual trainers working out there like Randy Cain and Jim Crews who can teach and teach well.

If you can't make it to school or other formal training, I recommend that you get a copy of Jeff Cooper's book The Art of The Rifle. In particular see how Jeff describes the "snap shot", which is the skill you want to master. I have used it hunting in Africa to shoot numerous animals "standing on my own two feet".

jim dodd

Wstrnhuntr,

In hunting situations, all off hand shooting you might have to do will be at relatively short range. At least that has been my own experience.

When this happens, you really are shooting instingtively, as you have very little time to really aim. The number of times I had to take shot like this, I think as far as I can remember I have hit my animal.

Going back to your question.

We use a 5 inch bulls eye target at 100 yards, and practice shooting at it, with quick, aimed shots. Generally we use a 308 Winchester, as we have plenty of ammo for this caliber. A number of us manage to get all 5 shots in the black most of the time, and some manage to get them to about a 3 inch groups sometime.

We try to shoot as quickly as we can.

I hope this helps.

I like a rifle to have a piece of African Walnut (fiberglass) on it and then I like the tube to have a bit of weight to it. A Scheider with a 4 weight to a 4.5 weight is about right for me. This will generally bring the tube dia. at the muzzle to between .65 and .7 depending on length of the tube. For me and my style this seems to shoot the best is positions that are less than supported. Off a day pack or a cheater (bipod) I can shoot any tube weight just fine.

For practice I use small paper plates (between about 5 and 6") and shoot away at 100. I usually I have one or two rifles around that I am not to particular about being to the bore and I just whale away with them.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Mark,

I like your reference to synthetic stocks as "African Walnut". I think it would be more fitting to call it "Alaskan Walnut" though!

Take care.

Jarrett

[ 03-08-2003, 01:17: Message edited by: Finley ]

When I hunted in Finland in the early 80's you had to shoot a moving target from 100M and qualify before you would be issued a hunting license. This was done offhand and took some practice to get used to the "Forward Allowance" as my Brit friends kept saying. The moose target was moving at about 40kph and the score was spotted by a "PitMan" who held colored round markers on the hits to indicate bullet strikes. A real eye opener for someone used to hunting from an elevated Texas deer blind and using a flat shooting 270 and 130gr'ers to shoot an '06 and 200's that had a trajectory more like a 30/30 and 180's !. For "elk" ... what the Finns call Shiras Moose there is/was a 200 gr bullet minimum requirement also, in addition to the .30 caliber requirement.
I've often said that if we had to shoot for our license's the Texas deer herd of approx 3 million would soon equal the states people population at 20 million+ and the season max limits would be taken off altogether! Hmmm might not be such a bad idea after all!!!
Ron

I grew up shooting offhand and I am sure I have practiced off hand shooting more than 99% of all the people I know...

several things come to mind:

1. Shoot relitively fast, so muscle fatigue doesn't set in...Taking deep breaths, Letting it out and all that stuff isn't pratical in the hunting fields..just pull up aim and a controlled jerk is in order...well just squeeze the trigger, but quickly.

2. A 26" barrel puts the weight out front where you need it to settle the barrel fast...

3. A reciever sight is easier to shoot off hand at up to 150 yards than a scope, Iron sights are also perhaps a little better, but I grew up on irons so it may not work for you..If you cannot see the iron sights, you need glasses to correct that..

4. If your of the scope generation then I suggest a 2.5 or 3X scope for off hand shooting...big scopes magnify the wiggle and you will grab the trigger when the hairs float by..one of the reasons I like the irons.

5. I do a lot of my hunting with irons and a lot of game is shot offhand, but I will take a rest if time allows for it and it often does.

6. Try it both ways on a 4" 100 yard target, both scope and irons..

7. Learn to point shoot at 25 yards, this is easy then do the same at 50...50 is about the max yardage for most, with regards to point shooting.

8. When you get really good at point (instinctive) shooting then practice on going straight away clays, you might be surprised how effective it is with lots of practice...start with a 22 and work up to a big bore..Be sure and have a backstop.

9. I live in an area where I can walk around close to my house and take pot shots at rocks or what ever with my big bores at unknown ranges and this helps to no end...you can do the same in Wy. I suspect..

I forgot to add, Jack rabbits are the best offhand shooting target in the world...Chucks are better than nothing...

Thanks for the responses guys, lots of great suggestions.

I usually practice my offhand shooting in a nonchallant sort of manner but Ive made up my mind that I am going put it on paper and see exactly what I can do and how much I can improve with some serious practice.

SeanD,

I do the same thing as you except I use live loads too, I started doing that with 410 shells that I didnt have a gun for anymore and now that is how I dispose of unwanted shells. If Ive got some that I just picked up or that misfired etc. I will set them up at a distance and aim at the primers. Its fun shooting and you know when youve hit the mark. .22s are GREAT for practicing and are capable of untold accuracy.

Ray,

I love open sights and agree that they cant be beat up close. I use both iorn sights and scopes. You make a good point with the use of clays too, I have a clay machine but havent used it in a while. I guess I oght to oil it up and take a case of clays out too.

Some of you guys shoot in what sounds like some very tough competition, there would clearly have to be far more of what could translate to "hunting skill" involved there than in something like a rail gun match.

Keep the excellent ideas coming..

Live loads? Man you got a bigger balls than me!

Saeed,

I think your on to something there............You've still got your trap shooter's eye.............And ever since I've been trap shooting, my off hand shooting at game has to yet miss..............IMO

[ 03-08-2003, 09:27: Message edited by: CK ]

I practice shooting off hand as much as possible. I usually have a gun handy and close by. While I am waiting for my computer to set up or down load(poor telephone lines make it very slow) I pick up a rifle and dryfire while aiming at an object. I do this often but not for any length of time. example; click on Big game forums- aim/dryfire 3 or 4 times, surf, click on Varmint hunting forums aim/dryfire 3 or 4 times. You get the Idea.
You will notice that your dryfire technique will improve. Meaning, the timing between sight picture and when your trigger breaks gets better and more consistant. You should be able to say to yourself that "that was a hit" or "fuck, that was a miss".
Then go out and shoot for real. I will purchase bulk remington bullets or second hand powder and bullets. Load up a batch, usually 20-30 rounds and go shoot milk jugs or clay targets. I shoot a 4" round bullseye target often.
I have an upcoming hunt that more than likely I will have to shoot offhand. So, I loaded 30 rounds for my .338Win.Mag. I did a quick sight-in check off the bench @ 100yds. I shot a 1 3/4",5 shot group off the bags. Then I went to standing offhand and put 5 shots inside 3". I took my time.
Then I went to a sitting position and put 5 shots inside 3". From there I went to a neeling position and fired 5 shots into 4 1/2". Then I had a little more fun and fired the rest off randomly at different objects.
I know that I shoot well enough but I normally don't shoot quite as good as this. Taking the time and dryfiring my rifle has paid off. I hope that I can keep it up.
One thing that I would like to add is that it is important to practice shooting with the coat you will be wearing when you are hunting. Like others have said here, rifle fit and balance is important. A heavy coat will affect that. For one rifle, I have a second stock that has a shorter length of pull for winter use.
Once again, I dryfire a little here and there and then shoot for real(offhand practice)a little now and then. Why I do this in small amounts but often, I have no idea. It just works for me.

Funny thing is, even though I know I can hit a 6" plate every time @ 100yds. I still try to get a rest if possible when I am hunting.


Daryl

I like the thought 222blr had about the option to not shoot. I've seen a lot of game missed, and consequently busted out of the county, because the hunter acted like he was on some T.V. game show and had to get off the round in as few seconds as possible. Buck fever I guess.

Wstrnhuntr: My condolences to your family. I'm sure if you keep shooting at live rounds they are going to need them some day.

3" @ 100 yds, 5 shots. Last time I tried it anyway. Fit and balance are important but practice and a GREAT TRIGGER are the keys to success in offhand shooting. I prefer a rest when hunting of course but approximately 15% of my big game has been shot offhand. More so with hogs than deer. I still hunt alot, rests are not always available or expediant. For all of that, the scores of the BPCR shooters shame whatever skill I have and set a standard to strive for. JMO.

well after reading the threads i see i have a little different form to shoot offhand that works for me.i practice it whenever i'm at the range or just out in the yard.i loop sling around arm look at the animal or object to see the range have a mental aimpoint as where to how high to hold,raise the rifle start under the object.and start to raise the rifle slowly and when it hits point where i want to hit squeeze trigger.that way your not wobbling all over the object and jercking the trigger.i took a deer at 300 yrds lastyear as didn't have time for a better position. and have shot woodchucks at 150 yrds laying down.i'm not saying that this is the best way to do it but it works for me.

I've been shooting offhand exlusively for three years now and reached some conclusion. first it takes very long to see a slightest improvement in group size.Second it requires alot of mental, physical training-to see any results you got to do this thing every day.Third,you got to shoot molly-coated bullets-you can't afford to waste any time cleaning,you should be practicing instead.Fourth,you should shoot a caliber that has a long barrel life,and use a very heavy barrel-to dissipate the heat.Fifth,it would be prefferable to shoot with a good trigger and a good fireing pin spring.Sixth,if you don't have a private range,you should try to shoot mostly in the winter or in bad weather-when the shooting club is empty(not to bother the other bench shooters or the owner).I've had alot of fun shooting offhand and can now get 70% of my shots in a 6in circle at 200yds.

1) You need a rifle that fits & a scope that is mounted properly.

2) You need a decent trigger...for me that's no more that 3 lbs with no slack.

3) You need proper footwork to have your body aligned with the target...usually just a quick step with your "off" foot toward the target.

4) Don't dawdle when you mount your rifle. Be prepared mentally to shoot as the sights move toward the target...when done properly it looks like snap-shooting.

5) Don't practice with targets that are too small as it will make you try and be too precise....I use a regular size paper-plate no matter what the range and I don't use white ones.....have a can of olive drab spray paint that I use on them.

6) Practice...practice....practice as it is a skill you can lose quickly. Start each shot with the rifle loaded, safety on and in the position you normally carry it. If you use scope caps they should be on before each shot. After the shot work the bolt before you lower the rifle and don't be afraid to practice "double-taps" just incase you miss.

I'd hate to, myself, since you only have two.