I am new to the this forum. Actually I am new to hunting also. I have read many of the posts here and on other boards and am somewhat confused. I have always heard that the big guns or "elephant guns" were incredible killing weapons. The impression I now get is that they are not!

So I am asking the question is an elephant gun really better than say a 338 or 375?

I also am wondering if a shotgun slug is at all effective? I mean they are huge and of little power next to an "elephant gun".

I am thinking of getting a high powered rifle that I can use for anything so I would appreciate recommendations there to. From what I have been able to glean from all the research I have done is that a 338 Ultra Magnum is probably my best bet for a one gun hunter.

Thanks,
Casey Christofferson

Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades..........

Bigger is only better if you can shoot it with precision - otherwise it's an exercise in mental gymnastics and you're wasting your time.

AD

It all depends on what "anythings you are going to hunting. Since you are from KS, I would assume that deer size game is the largest you would normally be hunting, and prairie dogs would be among the smallest. (I am assuming there are dog towns in KS.) I would recomend a smaller chioce of caliber 30.06, 270, something that you can shoot comfortably. If you are going to be hunting larger game-moose, bear, elk, etc. the 338 may be the way to go but watch out for the recoil. Any gun that you can not shoot comfortably, you will not shoot accurately. Shot placement is the name of the game in hunting. It has been said that you can take any game on the planet with a .22 rimfire if you place the shot right. Although I would not want to use one on anything larger than a ground hog.

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Society is safer when criminals don't know who's carrying!

Casey,
Welcome to these forums. You can learn a lot here from people who have learned through long, and sometimes hard experience.

Most folks who shoot "elephant guns" have graduated to them from "lesser" cartridges.

After shooting my first Cape buffalo with a .375, I used a .470 Capstick on the next one.

On dangerous game, you should use the most power you can handle.

An all-around cartidge for North America can run from the .30-06 through any of the .33s (some might propose a .375H&H for NA, and they would have a pretty good case).

You're cheating yourself by only owning a single gun for all your hunting. A big part of the fun of hunting is deciding which rifle to use

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

Casey,

George, Allen, and Rem 700 pretty much covered everything. I'll leave off with, if you're going to be a one box of ammo per year man, not planning on doing much (if any) reloading, 30/06 is hard to beat. Gives you the range, knock down power, and cheap availability of ammo to get the job done. Even if you do reload, components, dies, and loads are easy to find and relatively cheap, plus everyone and his brother makes brass for it, from the best to the worst brass makers. Remington is still the only game in town for Ultra Mag brass as far as i know. You can probably kill with skill up to elk size animals (although i'd prefer something a might larger), after that you should start looking at 338s and 375s.

on the other hand, like Ol'Sarge says, ".375 H&H: One Planet, One Rifle" hmmmmm......

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

Casey,

The key is to fire a weapon that can consistantly produce the needed terminal performance, based on the shots you take, and that you can consistantly make those shots.

#1 Key to sucess is understanding the anatomy of the animal you are hunting, so that given the shot presentation you have in the field, you know where to make the shot, and make it. If you don't know where to make the shot, or don't make it, no amount of power will make up for it. Look at Weahterby's video where Mr. Weatherby clearly gut shoots a cape buff with the then new 416 Weahterby, the animal simply ran off, had to be tracked, and finished off.

#2 Key is having a bullet that will consistantly reach that vital area, given the shot presentations you have. Many folks assume they will only recieve perfect broad side shots, and choose a bullet they plan to slip between the ribs, and have it go off like a granade. Problem is, real life doesn't always present these shots, and you are advised to have a bullet that can make the vitals from a quartering shot, and provide an exit in most instances.

#3, once you've chosen the bullet, then look at cartridges that can produce the velocity that the bullet behaves best at, and/or the desired trajectory. It is much, much, much more important to understand how bullets work, then to pick a paticular case. Pushing bullets faster doesn't necessarily make them better killers, often they become unreliable if pushed too fast. My personal belief is, small bores are best at 2700-3000 fps, medium bores at 2400-2700 fps, and big bores 2100-2300 fps. The bullets work most consistantly at those speeds, and it is the bullet that does all the work.

I would highly advise against the 338 ultra mag. If you are not an experienced high powered rifle shooter, the recoil produced will make it extemely difficult to master this weapon. Start with a .270, 30-06 et al small bores, once you've mastered it, then move to a .338-.375 medium bore.

Even if you decide on the 33 bore, give strong consideration to the win mag, with 225 gr bullets, it is fine to 400 yds, which is further then most practiced rifleman can consistantly place shots. The 338 ultra has signifigantly more recoil, so will be more difficult to shoot accurately inside 400 yds. There is also a whole lot more to shooting at long range then picking a hot cartridge.

The big guns do have some benefit in extremely limited situations, ie finishing wounded dangerous game at spitting distances. Some of us simply love the big guns, but will honestly tell you that a mild mannered medium bore is the way to go for the vast majority of hunting situations.

One last thing, the virtue of the medium bores, IMHO, is that while in most instances they will kill no better nor faster then a small bore, if things do go awry, you'll get a more consistant blood trail.

Read the thread on dealing with recoil on the big bore forumn, while it was directed towards the real bruisers, it equally applies to small and medium bores. I used to get bruised and flinch with my .308.

Thank you everyone. I do not think that recoil will effect me too much. While I have hunted much I have done alot of shooting. I enjoy participating in historical civl war and pioneer reinactments. I routinely shoot a .58 caliber Springfield musket and let me tell you they kick.

I am afraid I am stuck with only getting one rifle due to financial considerations. After all I am a teacher. Besides that way I can spend more money on hunting trips. I plan on hunting game all over North America. That is why I was leaning toward the 338 UltraMag.

Casey

All of the above comments are very good. I can only say that whatever gun you end up with, it should be one that you can shoot for the afternoon and still want more, because it is so comfortable to you. I am 6'2", over 290 lbs, and what I shoot all day may not be the same as what my 5'2" wife would shoot all day. The more game you shoot, the more you see the truth that a properly placed bullet that is properly constructed is probably more important than any bullet improperly chosen and improperly placed in the animal. That really means that, like a knive, you must hone your abilities to get the best result. You will not hone your abilities if it hurts every time you pull the trigger. Try to shoot different calibers and rifle designs to get a good feel for what you are comfortable with, if at all possible. After all that, my snap recommendation would be in the order of a 308, maybe even the venerable 7x57. These choices will get you thru most North American game, with proper bullet choice and placement. Keep trying other calibers and rifles, and you will find at least two more that you must have in the next few years. The real key to it all is to ENJOY IT A LOT, then you will expand your range of shooting and maybe end up with a 416 one day, but if you don't end up with the 416, still enjoy it!! Best to you!!!!

Yet another 2 cents worth...

For most people, taking something '06 or bigger to the range stops being enjoyable after a couple of dozen rounds. Now zinging away with a .223 or .243 is something that we are still enjoying when the last round is gone.

My theory is to use the smallest round that will reliably and humanely dispatch the animal you are hunting, and to take it to the range and practice a lot. If you plan to spend most of your time hunting griz, I'd vote for .338. If not, I'd vote for something a bit milder... you'll practice more, and enjoy it more.

The .338-06 with a 22" barrel is from 150 to 250 fps slower than the .338 WM, the .338 WM with a 24" barrel is about 150 to 200 fps slower than the .340 Weatherby and .338 RUM (both with 26" barrels).

The .340 Weatherby and .338 RUM will push the same bullet a little farther, but the recoil is considerable.

I would recommend a .338 Winchester Magnum for the following reasons:

a. If you reload, you can develop mild loads for it to the recoil level of the .338-06.

b. If you like fast and flat-shooting bullets, then you could use bullets from 160 grains, to about 225 grains. You would be duplicating the ballistics range of the .300 WM if you use the lightweight bullets.

c. You could use bullets from 230 to 300 grains for larger than deer game. These heavy bullets will get you up there with the .375 H&H (another outstanding cartridge).

Summary: You can make a .338 WM shoot much like a .300 WM is you use lightweight bullets, and much like a .375 H&h if you use bullets from 250 grains up to 300 grains. The .375 H&H is an outstanding cartridge that shoots more like a .338 WM if you use bullets under 300 grains in weight, but it does much better if you use 300-grain and heavier bullets. I hope this makes sense to you.

My rec is a 375 H&H. Mild enough recoil that most can get used to using it all day and enough knock down for all the world with possible ducking out of elephants. Once you use it on live game you will not go back. No more recoil than the 338 but legal for most dangerous game in Africa. For your KS whitetails you will not have to trail them far even with gut shots. Good hunting. D

Casey-
If you are only going to own one rifle for most all there is to hunt here, by all means by a 300magnum. It will be much easier to shoot than a 338 Ultra, it has a wider variety of factory loadings, and that ammo can be found most anywhere. My own choice would be a 300Wby, but the Winchester is just fine too.
Except for my brown bear, I have taken everything else in N.A. with the 300mag. It works and won't kick you to death.

There are excepted norms for stalking animals. If you stick to these and the excepted bullet weight and shoot broadside at excepted ranges then going bigger appears in my experience futile. Any benefit is marginal and more than offset by flinching.

Definitely need to get some experience in a smaller caliber first, I shot off thousands of rimfire rounds before graduating to .222 probably fired 4-5000 rounds through that before moving to the next step up and so on. Start off with at the very most a 30/06, I can still remember my first shot from an 30/06 and I used to think that it kicked after being a .222 shooter for many of my younger years.

And it is a crime to only own one gun. Hunting is like golf you need a different gun for all the different shots just like you need different clubs. My "out of the bunker" rifle is my 45/70.

Have fun and buy as many guns as you possibly can.

Regards PC

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Casey,

Contrary to what many of the arm chair hunter have to say on the matter, the big guns (that would start at 50 caliber) knock the crap out of whatever they hit! I have hunted for almost 20 years with either a 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery (AHR also) or a 460 Weatherby. I have shot numerous buffalo, bison, moose, and elk. I have never once out of over 20 kills had an animal that didn't get knocked off it's feet. Of those critters only one ever got up. That was a bison that I shot at too far out with iron sights. I hit that animal in the head straight on. The bullet went too low punching through the pallet going down throught hte neck muscles and coming to rest in hind quarters against the thigh bone. My guide watched with binoculars and claimed he could see a shock wave travel down the animals body (whatever), all I could see was the animal fall back onto its haunches (kinda like a dog) stay that way for a few seconds then fall completely down. It got up about 10 - 15 seconds after it went down completely.

Now I have shot about 10 bison over the years and witnessed several others. To me they are the toughest mothers I have ever shot. I have seen 300 and 338 Win Mags emptied into them with little or no visible effect. The animal did of course bleed to death it just did not appear to realize it was wounded. The wound channel created by say a 338 or even a 416 is SMALL compared to that created by a 570 grain .510 diameter Woodleigh doing 2400 fps. The 50 will generate a wound channel big enough to put your fists (plural) into. The damage done by the 50 + caliber weapons is so severe that I have personally witnessed portions of lungs and livers being expelled along with the blood. By portions I am refering to peices the size of a human hand! Try that with a small caliber rifle.

I hope my tirade help you understand what an "elephant gun" can do. Now the recoil of these monsters is great. You will need steel yourself to it. This process is somewhat like lifting weights at first you get sore (very sore) but with time the soreness goes away and you only get a little stiff after a good workout.

To answer your question about shotgun slugs. They are very very effective killers at less than 50 yards in my personal experience. From 50 - 100 yards they lose some effectiveness as penetration seems to begin to get marginal on the larger deer. Past 100 yards you are pushing your luck and in my opinion ethical hunting. To me an ethical hunter will endeavor to kill the game with one humane shot.

With regard to what rifle to get. Most of the previous replies are very good. You must get a weapon you can shoot with confidence and not fear. I would not get an Ulta Mag anything but that is just me. I can tell you that the UltraMags will undoubtedly kick harder and have a much faster kick than any muzzle loader. If you wanted a one rifle to do all of North America at any realistic range (that would mean out to 800 yards) I would say get a 338 Lapua Magnum. Since those are few and far between I would recommend a 338 Win Mag, or if recoil is got you scared a 35 Whelen / 338-06. Both of those will kick less than the 338 WM. The old 8mm Mauser ain't too bad either and can be had cheap and allows for personalization.

Just my ramblings. I hope you find hunting to be as rewarding as I have.

Todd E

If you think a .58cal muzzleloader kicks, you might find yourself in for a suprise! If you want a .338 fine, but the Ultra-Mag is not needed.

With todays super animals more power is needed. Today I had a squirell looking through my balcony window. Did I mention I live on the 22nd floor of a cement high rise? This is a new super animal. They adapt, so do you!

Welcome aboard Casey. I'm a new member too but I am not new to hard kicking rifles. My suggestion would be to try and find someone with a 338 Ultra, a .338 Win Mag, or a .375 and shoot one before you buy. All kick enough to intimidate a casual shooter which you will be unless you reload or are rich. Since you say you are new to hunting I will emphasize that its where you hit'em more than what you hit 'em with. That being said, bigger is better if you can handle it. Good hunting!

Casey,

I have got a Ruger M77 MkII Magnum in 416 Rigby I'll sell you. Let me know if you are interested. This rifle will kill anything that walks the planet earth.

The rifle is pillar bedded in glass with double cross bolts stocked in english. The stock is a duplicate of the factory original so if you have seen an original you'll know what this one looks like. It also is braked, but that can be unscrewed if you like.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 01-19-2002).]

If you are going to hunt animals that bite, gore, scratch and eat people, then the best advise you will ever get is shoot the biggest gun you can shoot accurately from any field position and pack all day..

In my case thats a 416,404, 450-400...I wish I could carry and shoot the 505 or 577, both caliber that I really like, but I cannot shoot them from a squatting position or some of the field positions, and they are just too heavy for me to pack these days..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Hey Casey, a .338 ultra mag is kinda in the "elephant gun" category and the .375 H&H is well proven to be in that class although maybe the normal minimum. You need to shoot someone's .270 or '06 and see how comfortable you are with these standard calibers, then go from there. The ultra mags will never be all that common so pick something that's more available, realistic and practical. A .30-06 or .300 win. mag will serve you very well for anything you are likely to encounter. Ideally, you would have something from .250 savage to the '06 for your basic deer/antelope/black bear rifle. The '06 is good for elk and moose so you don't need to go bigger for the usual N.A. hunting unless bigger turns you on.