Hello All. Just thought this was a bit interesting so I will relay some info.

Talking with a north Alberta bear guide 2 nights ago, we hit on several topics including rifle/shotgun vs. archery. This particular guide has been involved with bear hunting for 15 or so years. He prefers bowhunters. According to him, if you are to bring a firearm, he prefers "big and slow, ie., 45-70, or shotgun."

He stated: "most hunters think about bears and bring a big magnum even though their shot is only about 50 yards for a long shot. We set up our stands for bowhunting. Seems like all the bowkills make it about 20-30 yards and the ones shot with a rifle make over a 100."

I told him that I was contemplating an mechanincal broadhead for my next bear hunt since I've seen several make it all of 20 or so yards at best. He told me to use whatever shot the most accurate, fixed or mechanical, but if I am to use a rifle, don't bring a magnum. He stated that he'd prefer a muzzleloader, shotgun or, as previously mentioned, a 45-70 or the like...even over a 30.06. "The magnums just zip right through the bears leaving very little damage, no matter the caliber."

I explained that my only rifle kill was with my .06 at about 9 or so yards. I punched the Scirocco through the shoulders and the bear was dead on impact. He replied that most hunters still shoot for lung only even with a firearm when in his opinion, they should always aim to break the shoulders.

Any thoughts?

You're guide sounds like he's been around the block and knows what he's talking about. I personally belive that too much is made of the big magnums and that the 45-70 or somewhere thereabouts is probably more realistic.

Doc, I love the bow and would only use the fixed blade type broadheads. I know that many people have differing opinions (like anuses ) but IMHO it's the way to go. Placement with any weapon is paramount, but you still have to reach the vitals. I believe also that there is such a thing as a minimally suitable caliber and that past that point is unnecessary. Enjoy the hunt!

quote:

"The magnums just zip right through the bears leaving very little damage, no matter the caliber."

Yea, right. The magnums put a hole through an animals with very little damage. That doesn't make sense at all. Maybe he's talking about a .22 WMR...but that wouldn't zip right through. I guess for pelt hunting, etc. you need a magnum to zip right through with very little damage.

I did a bear hunt in Ontario catering to bow hunters once. I got to sit several days up a tree above stinking bait being eaten alive by black flies and mosquitos despite netting and Deet. Then if you don't see any bear, your guide says it's because "you moved."

I was rifle hunting with a .308 Winchester and did not need to be 15 feet from a stinking bait to hit my target. I admire bow hunters, but in general I don't want to bow hunt when I have the choice of using a firearm and I will never again rifle hunt with an outfitter that caters to bow hunters and not rifle hunters (at least if I'm using a rifle).

In my opinion, at least for my outfitter, catering to bow hunters was easy. An easy pickup and drop off over stinking bait.

I think there are a lot of factors on how a critter, bear in this case, reacts to hunters, changes in their environment and being injured. I think that perhaps archery hunters are a bit more patient and noise and movement aware than rifle hunters (general statement) and of the rifle hunters perhaps the short range cartridge folks are better at sitting still than the others (general statement).

I've been on a number of black bear hunts in northern Alberta, baited and spot and stalk. I nearly all cases I've noticed that the bears that come to the bait are aware that I am there, my ability to remain silent and still only effects the more wary bears and they will eventually come in if I am silent and very still. I try to get a stand as far from the bait (if hunting bait) as possible (I carry a portable climber at times) and this helps a bit for some bears. I've also been on the ground for several bear hunts (baited) and that adds another level of experience to the events.

I believe that if the bear is more wary of the hunter it is also more apt to bolt at the first sign of a problem and therefore the more stealthy the hunter the less "run" a bear takes after being shot. Pump a bear full of adrenaline and it's going to go quite a way after being shot, calm him down or completely surprise him and he's less likey to get too far with a hole in him.

I've shot bears with 308 Win, 300 WSM, 375 H&H and had my hunting companion has used a 375 H&H and a 45-70. The baited bears I've shot from elevated stands with the 308 Win have traveled very short distances, varying from straight down DRT (Dead Right There) to about 30 yards with the majority going only a few feet. The 300 WSM baited bear (elevated stand) was DRT. The 375 H&H stalked bear went about 10 yards. Shot placement on these varied with the DRT types being shots to the spine angled into the chest with the bear facing directly toward me. The runner types were high angle double lung, left front leg to heart then out (shot from the ground).

My hunting companion's 45-70 baited bear (elevated stand) went about 60 yards and treed then bawled and fell from the tree and still drug itself a few yards after that. His 375 H&H baited bear (elevated stand) went about 45 yards. These were double lung type shots.

The ones that seemed to go the furthest (if capable) were the ones that were most wary and/or had only been at the stand or aware of me/us for the shortest time. The DRT types don't matter much but they were on the bait for a while and had become somewhat comfortable with the "lump up a tree" hunter. The stalked bear had been close to us at least three times and knew we were there, it didn't really matter too much as the shot was close and did a great deal of damage (left front leg, chest, heart, off-side lower lung area then out.

My experience is that bears seem to be like deer in their defense/escape post-shot, if they're full of adrenaline they can run a long way if structurally intact otherwise it's a bang-flop type thing (rifle or bow I'd say it about the same type affair).

quote:

"The magnums just zip right through the bears leaving very little damage, no matter the caliber."

Are you sure that this is all that the guide said?

It does not make sense you know from the limited details? Bears are just animals with heavy bones. Hit with the right bullet for the game and distance they will die just like anything else.

I ran a small bear hunting camp in N.MN.for almost 20 years. Mostly friends and family.We killed a lot of bears, big ones and small ones.In that time we lost only 2 bears, both bow hunters, after the last one I told every one rifle only. If you wanted to use the sticks go ahead but I was all done trailing bears on my hands and knees at 1AM. The "pro" outfitters I knew in the area all had similar experiences but they could not be as descriminating as I could..I support a person's right to bow hunt, just not in my camp. As far as rifle calibers, we used anthing from 6mm to 338 mag. All resulted in dead bears. Shot placement is more important than caliber, IMHO.

I'm going to be using my 9.3x62 with 248 grs RWS Cone Point bullets. I'll let you know what happens if I get so lucky... only two more weeks!

Frans

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
He stated that he'd prefer a muzzleloader, shotgun or, as previously mentioned, a 45-70 or the like...even over a 30.06.

Like most guides, what your's knows about guns and ballistics could fill a thimble.

Hey Savage,

Yes, he pretty much wasn't one for a lot of words. I'm also of the belief that the magnums WILL indeed do lots of damage, as I have seen it on antelope and deer at very close range.

However, his words did echo that of the Maine outfitter I hunted with in 2004. That guide also said they couldn't find several bears, shot with 300 mags, and a few Weatherby mags, but not naming which ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
He stated that he'd prefer a muzzleloader, shotgun or, as previously mentioned, a 45-70 or the like...even over a 30.06.

Like most guides, what your's knows about guns and ballistics could fill a thimble.

Well, he's not my guide. This is another fellow that took over a different outfit and this is his first year on this new land. I've never hunted with him, and have not made any plans as of yet. I'm assuming he made his statements based on his accounts much like we all do here at AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Hey Savage,

Yes, he pretty much wasn't one for a lot of words. I'm also of the belief that the magnums WILL indeed do lots of damage, as I have seen it on antelope and deer at very close range.

However, his words did echo that of the Maine outfitter I hunted with in 2004. That guide also said they couldn't find several bears, shot with 300 mags, and a few Weatherby mags, but not naming which ones.

I'm inclined to say that both guides are blaming the caliber of the rifle used not the customer using it.

Poorly shot with a 458Lott is still poorly shot

But I suppose that the guy doesn't want to risk insulting paying customers, so instead he blames the caliber.

Most people here are experienced shooters and riflemen and forget that 90% of shooters find a 30-06 less than comfortable to shoot, which is why the 30-30 243Win and other calibers are so popular.

Of the remaining 10% (those of us on these forums how many choose to not subject themselves
to a 300mag?

The truth is that most people (even the people on these forums) simply don't shoot the 300's very well.

it's about acknowledging that most people cannot handle a 300mag comfortably enough to be any good with it And THOSE are the people who guides are always talking unkindly about.

Know your own limitations... and stick to them.


AllanD

I've been guiding for close to 20 years. All my stands are the same distance from the bait( bow + rifle). I've gone after far more archery wounded bear than rifle wounded bear even thou its been about 50% of each weapon used. Just stating a fact. I have nothing against either weapon.

I agree with ELKMAN2, shot placement is more important. Doc states a really good point made by the outfitter that the big guns up close are too powerful and shoot right through the bear without working the way they are designed to. Kinda like putting a 6.5-20 power scope on your rifle for a 10 yard shot.

I think the key is to have enough gun and shoot for the shoulders to break the bear down. You bust him up in the shoulder, it will be a lot harder for him to run off on you.

I'll comment on the broadhead choice. My good buddy was in Africa 2 years ago hunting plains game over waterholes. A friend of his went with and hunted as well. One used Montec 100 grain heads and the other insisted on his mechanicals, also 100 grains. He was allowed to use them. Both hunters bagged zebra, warthogs, kudu, etc. Shot placement was comparable for both hunters. My friend that used the Montecs had dead animals after tracking. The other guy with the mechanicals, 90% had to be finished with the 375, or the "pipe" as they called it. Every mechanical was broke and lacked penetration. The Montecs were resharpened and are still killing. I am going to devote a lot of time this spring to finding and tuning the good ole fashioned 1 piece, 2 blade cut on impact broadheads, a Zwickey or the like. The mechanicals may work some of the time but not all the time. It is similar to paying the money for a nice rifle hunt and deciding to use that Sierra Matchking because it makes tiny groups and it may work fine. But why take the chance when a Swift, Northfork, etc. is such cheap insurance.

I don't think any small caliber rifle is a good match for bears. I would like to suggest that Doc's guide friend does not have much exposure to some of the 338 thru 375 calibres. I clearly remember the first bear I shot with my first 338 Win. I had taken bears with 30-06s and 7mm Rem rifles and they usually ran a few yards . The first shot through both shoulders with a 338 and that bear was on the ground like now ! I could stick my fist in the hole on the off shoulder where the bullet came out. Since then I've used the 340,358 Norma, 358 Win, 9.3x64 and the 375 H&H. Pretty much the same results with lots of damage.

Prewar, I love your analogy about using Sierra MK's on a high dollar hunt... priceless!
I have used both mech's and fixed, and will never use another mech broadhead. Because there is too much IF.

AD, those very thoughts have crossed my mind as well....about the hunter and not the caliber. But, to me, it sure would take a person with really poor aim to not hit a bear at 20 yards or under. I guess anything is possible: first time bear hunter gets excited and pulls a shot, someone may get rather scared on a first bear hunt, who knows...guess there's lots of reasons someone might not place a bullet where it ought to go at such a short distance.

Pioneeroutfitters: I would have guessed the same as you; far more tracking for bowhunters. I admit I was quite shocked with what the guide told me but I must admit, my bear kills were lucky I guess. I shot one with a bow, 3 blade fixed muzzy and it went 20-25 yards and died. I shot the other with a 30.06 and it dropped right there.

I'll be on another 2 week bear hunt in NB and AB in May. God willing, I'll get lucky and fill my tags, and will certainly deliver reports of the hunts.

308Sako,

One of my favorite movies, Jeremiah Johnson, I always seem to catch it on late night TV, about 25% of the way through, in January.

Allan DeGroot,
I used to feel the same about the average Joe and a 300 Mag.

These days I am more of the opinion that if a guy can't shoot a 300 mag then well... usually he can't shoot period.

The same guy that can't shoot his 300 usually can't shoot his 30-06 and his 30/30 is usually having some sort of strange accuracy malfunction.
And I am talking off the bench never mind some usefull practice position!

From my experience, a guy that can shoot and isn't comfortable with 300 recoil levels will take your 300, rip little holes, and then hand it back to you while telling you how much he hates your gun.

90% of shooters can't shoot!

There is your problem DOC!

FWIW a 300 Win with 200 Noslers is some of the better black bear medicine out there.


Jamie

Lots of guides are full of BS this one is no differant.
What Stonecreek said what he knows about ballistics could fill a thimble. I few guides are really gun people and can talk about firearms with the best of us. Most are not.

This one is filled with the same BS that has been going on for ever a fast bullet goes through with hurting anythig. What a laugh.

Haven't had the chance to get a shot at a bear of any kind yet,had licenses a few times, just haven't seen one.

One thing I have noticed, that a lot of folks seem to have a problem with, is the concept that on game other than Whitetails and muleys, you need to use that first shot to kill the animal outright if possible, but whether that happens or not, getting it off its feet, and keeping it from running off.

Some folks just seem to be squeamish when it comes to the thoughts of "Breaking an animal down". The guides I have used, told me to shoot so that the critter was either going to be dead at the shot, or at least have both shoulders broke. JMO

Doc,

Your experiance seems correct to me and the guides seem wrong by saying that the magnum will zip right thru.

About 1966 when I got my first .358 Win my late dad, his buddy and son who was my age were walking on an old woods road near my camp in VT and came upon an abandoned farm way back in the mountains. His buddy was a gallery shooter and I doubt that he had ever hunted.

I had the 99F loaded with handloads shooting the 200 gr Silvertip at about the factory MV. The path took us to an old apple tree where there was a very large porkupine high in the tree. I saw no danger in shooting almost straight up into the tree as at that time the area had a very low population with most places unoccupied. Today I might not take the shot.

His buddy said "it will go right thru it" which sounds like the guides you quote. I hit the porkupine in the middle and it flew out of the tree and landed at our feet. All of its internal organs were gone or hanging from the trees branches! You could look down into the porkupine as it was on its back and see it's ribs.

"it will go right thru it"

IMO: For bowhunting I would always use the sharpest fixed 2-3 blade broadhead I own that shoots well.

As far as rifles: There is a whole range of cartridges that will work on bears. But as far as sitting over bait, a magnum is not needed. But if a 300 WM (25-06, 270, 20-06 etc) is all you own, by all means take it. Not everyone is a rifle loony like some of us. If you are spot and stalk hunting in the west or the SE Alaska the magnums will have a further reach.

But in the case of baiting (short range), a bigger diameter bullet is better. The velocity is only needed for bullet performance.

I have only shot a couple bears with archery equipment, and have finished off another archery hunter's bear with slugs (too afraid to trail and finish the job). I think a mild loaded 45-70 would work great on bears as would a whole host of other cartridges. Like a slug gun sighted in appropriately with a low power scope.

If I go this spring, I'll probably take my 338-06, or maybe 348 Win I don't see the need for my 375 H&H or my 416 Rigby.

I consider black bears to be relatively soft animals that don't need a lot of ft/lbs to punch through them. Nor do I feel that a premium bullet is needed for close range baiting situation type shots.

These are from a hunt I did Sept of '04 in Manitoba.

Exit hole from a 30-06 180 grains Nosler Partition at 55 yards:



Same view, during skinning:


I might add that on this same hunt, 1 hunter hit a bear with a .50 cal BP, the bear was lost. Another hit what he claimed was a 400+ lb bear with a broadhead. This bear was also not recovered.

Personally, the only opinion I have is that you have to practice before you fire at a living animal. Shot placement and bullet performance are important. Caliber, weapon, etc just matters of choice.

Not too long ago on another forum a guy mentioned that the really experienced bear guide he was talking to suggested he bring a fast rifle with a quick expanding bullet and it surprised him. I have been on several guided hunts the last few years and have talked to a bunch of guides in the process of research. Inevitably, it turns to guns because I am a gun nut. Opinions vary all over the place. Most guides don't seem to know much about guns even though they can sometimes have very firm opinions on calibers and types of rifles. From what I can gather as I asked more questions most strong opinions are really based on examples of one.

-Lou

-Lou

Lou270 you nailed it most guides are not gun people. Most Do not reload or own bunchs of guns they are out to make a buck.

They get away with it because most people that hire them know even less.

quote:

"The magnums just zip right through the bears leaving very little damage, no matter the caliber."

That is the biggest crock of B.S. that I have ever heard.I hope that he knows more about guiding than he does about cartridges and bullet performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
He stated: "most hunters think about bears and bring a big magnum even though their shot is only about 50 yards for a long shot. We set up our stands for bowhunting. Seems like all the bowkills make it about 20-30 yards and the ones shot with a rifle make over a 100."

He stated that he'd prefer a muzzleloader, shotgun or, as previously mentioned, a 45-70 or the like...even over a 30.06. "The magnums just zip right through the bears leaving very little damage, no matter the caliber."

According to Nosler, the minimum velocity for reliable expansion of their partition bullet is 1800 fps. This is stated by them in their on-line forum. There is no known upper velocity limit for proper performance.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1347

According to Remington, a 180 grain bullet (not the Nosler Partition) in a 30-06, 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby Mag will show that at 400 yards the 30-06 has reached 1846 fps, at 500 yards the 300 Win Mag has reached 1856 fps while the Weatherby is still doing 1976 fps and so should push the effective range of the Nosler partition out another 25 to 45 yards.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics...30065*R300W2*R300WB1

I can NOT imagine it is routine to shot Black Bear at 500 yards.

According to lot of old gun magazine stories, you want a slower, flat or round nosed round for heavy brush. I have never figured out why that is supposed to work. I have never seen a study that shows one type bullet does better than another in heavy brush.

Given that our guide is running a commercial operation, I would expect that he has provided his clients with clear shooting lanes. So the need for a "Brush Round" goes away.

quote:

According to lot of old gun magazine stories, you want a slower, flat or round nosed round for heavy brush. I have never figured out why that is supposed to work. I have never seen a study that shows one type bullet does better than another in heavy brush.

Many tests have been performed to determine if a particular bullet is less effected by striking branches or brush,and the results have always been that slower flat or round nose bullets are just as effected as higher velocity pointed bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by ELKMAN2:
I ran a small bear hunting camp in N.MN.for almost 20 years. Mostly friends and family.We killed a lot of bears, big ones and small ones.In that time we lost only 2 bears, both bow hunters, after the last one I told every one rifle only. If you wanted to use the sticks go ahead but I was all done trailing bears on my hands and knees at 1AM. The "pro" outfitters I knew in the area all had similar experiences but they could not be as descriminating as I could..I support a person's right to bow hunt, just not in my camp. As far as rifle calibers, we used anthing from 6mm to 338 mag. All resulted in dead bears. Shot placement is more important than caliber, IMHO.

Shot placement is more important than caliber, I could not agree more.

I guess I need to put my money where my mouth is. A bear hunt just came through for me and I leave May 7th for week in Saskatchewan.

Since I don't have time to work up new loads and haven't been shooting enough with my traditional bows. I am going to grab my 338-06, mount a 1.75-6 heavy duplex scope and use a 200gr Hornady SP (2730 fps) load that I shot deer with last fall.

.300WM and Weatherbys, 338's, 30-06's, Wow, they must be breeding some tough assed bears nowadays. In my misspent youth, a hunter armed with a .35Rem or a .300 Savage was considered to be ready for any bear east of the big river.

Well, here's another thought:

I'm talking to this guide in far north Manitoba who claims that bears in camp is a norm, almost daily.

Yet, he uses a 22 rimfire for "deflating the lungs."

He tells me bears are a piece of cake to kill, just use anything to deflate the lungs and they're dead. I guess my question would be, dead where? How far can they go after being shot at 10 yards with a 22 rimfire long rifle.

Oh well, I'll be sure to post our results by the second week of June. My brother has decided to join us on our first week of bear hunting.

Doc,

I think his logic is flawed... It seems to me that the bears mouth & windpipe can refill the lungs with greater volume that can leak out of a small 22 cal hole... deflation isn't what stops lung function. Lung function ceases when the lungs fill with blood, which will occur faster with a bigger hole.

I agree.

My Dad shot lots of deer with a 22 back in the 30's. He allways said shoot them in the lungs they run about a 100 yards. He said that about deer He shot with a 22 or his 300 savage.