On the 30-30 thread we got to talking about where to hit that Elk. Some say the shoulder, some say the lungs. Nobody so far has said the heart.

What do YOU say?

Blue

blue, it is wise that you ask many questions before going on this hunt. I think it was said by allen and a few others on the other thread but I will add my thought's. If the shot presents itself, I will try for the spine, I want to anchor this bad boy where he stands.
A big mature bull can cover alot of ground even with a heart or lung shot and it always seems to be at the bottom of hell canyon. I understand you said you would hire horses to pack out your game but I assure you that there are lots of spots you can't get a horse and you can end up packing out quarters 1/2 mile or more to the horses.

If, you penetrate the chest cavity by shooting through a shoulder, you will cause massive trauma to the heart, lungs and the aorta(s); this will induce hypovolemic shock which will bring about loss of brain function, thus death. I have noticed that dead Elk do not run as far as living ones.

If, you place your bullet tight behind the shoulder, you should damage one or both lungs; with a one lung hit, an adrenalized Elk can go for a hell of a long way. This wound also sometimes allows them to recover, but, they are usually lost to the Grizzlies or Wolves. This happens very often here in B.C.

A broken shoulder and the concommitant sucking pneumo-thorax caused by a properly placed shoulder shot will cause an Elk to drop, due to O2 loss, more quickly than a lung shot. Again, Elk are very, very tough animals and not easy to kill or even stop quickly.

A serious bullet, a shattered shoulder, ruptured lung(s) and a leaking aorta equals your Elk, on the ground, where you want him/her. A lung shot that just slips behind the diaphragm equals your Elk, half a mile down in a canyon full of blowdown, doghair Spruce or slide Alder; you haven't lived until you have packed an Elk out of this situation.

I have used lung shots on all of my elk and all were quick clean kills.All animals dropped within 25 yards.

Not all elk are created equal. There is a mighty big difference between a raghorn and a mature bull in both size and tenacity.

Chuck

Hey Jimmy,



This one died at the bottom of Hell Canyon the winter of 02! I know because I packed it out for my Uncle. He was good for one trip, I got the other 4.







No way a horse would have come out of there alive. 3 inches of snow, just enough to hide the "pecker poles", and steep. We came down to it the next morning, but packed it out by going down, and then up the other side. 2 days of packing, and he was a small one! But, he was shot in the spine The picture doesn't show how truly steep this was. The fun part was crossing the swamp/creek at the bottom

That night back at camp after a long day. That's the "Red Plastic Cup" smile My Dad on the left, and Jim Conrad of "Conrad Meadows" fame on the right. Conrad Meadows is over near Lake Rimrock. His Grandparents homesteaded it at the turn of the century. Great guy and a pleasure to share the fire with.

JBabcock , You expressed my point. I have hunted that Rimrock area quite a bit. In fact we have packed several out from south of the White Pass ski lodge down into the Rimrock area and No horses.
The best I can do is to try and advise blue, that once that animal is down it will be no cake walk, even if you can get horses somewhat close.

JBabcock, I'm sure we have crossed path's up that way as I seem to remember that jeep, small world. I have spent some time in the Conrad Meadows area, used to be a great spot till they changed the reg's.

Someone in here at some time posted "shoot for the exit hole" and that makes good sense if you think about it. Visualize how the animal is standing and where the bullet is going to come OUT if you shoot it in x spot. Thus, if possible, you would be better off (IMO) shooting a quartering shot thru the ribs, lungs and into the off shoulder rather than hitting the near shoulder and hoping the bullet could bust thru the shoulder into the vitals. If the animal is quartering sharply toward you, forget the shoulders and shoot for the heart. With any sort of shot placement, you'll get the pump or at least major arteries and lungs. (an elk can travel a long ways with a busted shoulder if that's the only damage. My example of one is an elk that my friend shot with a 30-338. Yes he was using a light for calibre bullet at boy howdy, look what I can do velocity. And yes he did think it was lightning in a bottle and only had to be pointed at an animal to kill it. We played hide and seek with the elk for five hours before we got it on the ground) It has been strongly argued in here that the texas heart shot is a sure and sudden killer. And it is if you hit the brown spot and not one of the hams. I've never shot an elk in the ass but I've cleaned a couple of deer thus killed and its a job for a cold, windy day or when you have a couple of young'uns along for the wilderness experience.
One last bit of advise and then I'm done with this: If you decide to try this, when you decide to shoot, keep on shooting until the animal goes down or out of sight. Contary to what they might tell you, that's pretty much the way the old timers did it. The rifle didn't hold 15 rounds for no reason.

I vote for lungs, both of them. I listened to a pre-hunt Jack Hooker lecture on the subject, and it convinced me. Results since have borne him out, although my experience is a limited sample size.

This thread was originally about whether or not a 30-30 would work on Elk. The answer is yes it will. However thats when things are perfect. These 3 Elk were shot in 1955.







The guy on the left is my Grandfather, Chuck Babcock, 5x6. The lower one is a Spike, Gene Snow. The guy on the right is my Dad, Tom Babcock, his first big bull, 7x7, Yakima County. Gross Boone and Crockett, 342. It was shot 5 times with a 300 Savage, which isn't a whole lot more powerful than a 30-30. Did it die? Yes. Was it the best gun for the job? No. He ended up getting a 300 Weatherby. The 30-30 will, and has, killed Elk. But it isn't the best choice for an awesome animal. Gramps used a Remington semi-auto in '06, that was an Elk killing machine when it wasn't froze up . Not sure what Gene used.

JB

That is a wonderful wonderful photograph. I remember when I was a kid that my Dad had a Chevy pickup that looked a lot like the one in your photo. Had the separate starter pedal on the floor. Those were the good old days!!!!

Anyway, this discussion can now end. I am convinced, based upon all of the objective expertise provided here by all of you folks, that the 30-30 is going to stay home from this fall's elk hunt. If I were going with someone who could help me track, and help me haul if I were successful, I might consider it, and then make sure to limit my shots to less than 100 yards. But all of you Yahoos have convinced me that Elk hunting is one of those very unpredictable deals where if your goona shoot one you better know what you are doing and you better have enough gun. I have a brand new Winchester Model 70 Classic in 7mm Rem Mag. that I am going to try and sell and then I will look for another .338 Magnum. I wish I would have kept the other one I had (it was a stainless but it had the boss and I didn't like that boss so I sold it after only shooting a few deer with it).

Now all I gotta do is order my boots and pack, and sit around here and wait for this fall.

Thanks to everyone for your opinion. Special thanks to you Jimmy for hanging in there with me.

Blue

"Shoot for the exit hole" is an extremely sound and logical concept to follow, and to live by. Ten pounds of solid weight in every word!

One thing I've found is that some guys seem to shoot (subconsciously) at an entire animal instead of a tiny, specific spot on that animal, and the result is usually a miss, or even worse, a poor hit. I always try to mentally superimpose a spot about the size of a silver dollar on the spot where I want the bullet to go. I'm shooting for that dollar--not the whole animal.

A little off-topic, but I'm also convinced that improper sight-in techniques can create the illusion of a proper (but in reality, false) point-of-impact that can lead to misses in the field. Once the rifle leaves that mechanical benchrest support, zero needs to be confirmed by shooting from actual field positions, as you would hold the rifle in the field. That benchrest-style, hand-off-the-forend/squeeze the rear bag technique is OK for testing loads in light rifles, but unless you intend to shoot that way in the field, don't assume that your rifle is properly sighted in by shooting that way from the bench. At the range get into a solid field position, grasp the forend as you would in the field, get into the sling, and THEN make final adjustments, and by all means, call your shots as you go. Try it without the sling as well, and repeat this exercise for a number of range sessions before you call your rifle "sighted-in". Use good, clear targets with a well-defined aiming point, always.

David Tubb (in the American Rifleman) is the only true expert marksman that I've read the written work of who has actually advocated this method for final sight-in, but was he ever right! This concept can save you an untold number of frustrating and costly "mystery misses" over the course of your hunting career, and it is bedrock in its importance.


AD

That 7mm with 175 grain pills, or even 160 grain Noslers will work perfect for the task at hand. I'd prefer the 175's though. I shot a Spike last year with my Sears and Roebuck 270 using a 140 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaw and got complete penetration. Shot him in the near shoulder, through both lungs, and out the other side, right below the far shoulder.

Blue ----- I like to hit the Elk in at least one shoulder and one lung, in other words an angled shot that will enter a shoulder and exit a lung or vice versa. I shoot a rifle powerful enough to achieve that. Broadside I would go for shoulder area, but not to far forward, headon would be under his chin, from the rear would be up the chute. Happiness is a clear shot, a good rest, and time to take the best shot. Good shooting.

blue, it is the same advice I would give anyone. Elk hunting is a tough game. The 338 is a fine choice. Put some 200 grainers through the tube and you will have your elk.
I used to hunt with family but the last 15 years or so it has been on my own, as I am just a bit hard to get along with or so I've been told. The best advice is to be totally preparred for weather changes and by all means get in shape. Trust me when I say, packing out a quarter that weigh's between 125 and 150lbs will take you down in a hurry. good luck

Alan

I am so glad you brought up that subject of "mystery misses". I know some fellows who claim that they can shoot sub minute of angle (my four younger brothers), and then when I hear them shoot in the woods and later ask them where the animal is there is always that "mystery Miss".

I tend to hunt whitetails up in a stand much of the time overlooking a river. (most people would not believe that whitetails will run for and cross big water when they have been disturbed) Anyway, I will admit here and now that I tend to miss more shots when I am shooting down at something. They are a mystery miss to me. I have read about compensating when shooting downwards, but I still miss. Probably might be a real good idea for me to do some sightin in at some pretty steep angles before attemting to hunt Elk.

Blue

I think your choice of gun also depends upon the tag you have as well. Here in Washington you have to apply for "Branch-Antlered" tags. If I had one, my 338 would go with me. If I have just an over the counter Spike tag, the 270 will work fine. As someone noted earlier, there's a big, big difference between a mature Herd Bull, and a Spike that is running with the Cows.

I am glad to see that you came to this conclusion, it is the most realistic in terms of today's Elk hunting. I scrupulously follow the sighting technique that Allen describes so well, I got this from the great American, Elmer Keith's writings in the early sixties. As usual, the old boy was right on when it came to serious hunting rifles.

One point, if you are going to wear a pack while hunting, cut the stock of your .338 about 1/2" shorter than usual and install a Decelerator, I find that this makes it easier to shoot quickly if you jump a really big bull. Just use a strap-on pad at the range and you will not get boinked by the .338.

I sure wish the hunting here was like it was at the time of that neat photo, but, my first 4x4 was a '52 Willys p/u truck and I do not miss the vehicles of that era, give me a Tacoma 4x4 anyday!

Kutenaymtboy



Ya, the vehicles are nicer today for sure, but in them good ol' days everything was so much more "innocent". There wasn't such an emphasis on the money end of hunting, and things were a lot more mellow. There weren't any million dollar log homes on the way out to the huntin grounds either, and people wore red instead of blaze orange. Those were great times.



Jimmy



Who told you that you were hard to get along with? I never saw that in you. You say it like it is, and you say it from experience,just like Allen and Kutenaymtboy and JB and all of the Others who have contributed here. Thats good enough for me.



Well, its the wife's day off so her and I have to head down to Owatonna to Cabela's to spend some of her money!!



Blue

Blue,

Two season a go, one person who is handicapped, shot a huge Cow elk.

Upon gutting it, there seemed to be a cyst or something on the wall of the heart.

The heart was washed in a sink at the cabin and the 'cyst' was cut off of the heart wall ( heart fed to the dogs) and upon cleaning it, we discovered that it was a mushroomed bullet!

Of course we had no way of telling what caliber it was.
We were all pretty amazed!

It is not to say a heart shot is bad, of course. I just think it takes a good shot placement and X amount of luck also.

I hate to say tho, I have seen more guys the last couple of seasons banging away at Elk at 500 and 600 yds, than shooters banging away at them under 400 yds.

I always see my biggest Elk the day after hunting season is over.!

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

In my own opinion I would have to say that every situation is unique in it's own way.Can the Elk get to a nasty spot in the time he/she has after a clean broadside,double lung shot?If yes,I agree that a little wasted meat is worth not taking that chance.However unless your rifle/bullet combo is for sure able to penatrate the shoulder and into the chest cavity(eg.I would not try to hit an Elk in the shoulder with a .243),the responible hunter should wait until a broadside shot is presented,rather than taking a chance of wounding the Elk by trying to prove that their peashooter is on equal terms with their buddies Super Ultra Cross Continent Game Taker. An Elk on three legs can go alot farther than one with no lungs!! But hey,opinions are like #@%holes,everyones got one.

With all due respect to those that say that elk are tough and can soak up lead in the thorasic cavity and keep on ticking, I suggest that you are not using enough gun. I have never had an elk take more than a few shaky steps after a hit from my 416 Rigby, 458 Win mag. Actually, I cannot remember any of them taking a step, most just stood there for a few seconds and then dropped, or fell at the shot. These mature bulls and cows too, no babies. Actually, the only bull I ever lost was to a 300 Weatherby magnum with a 200 gr bullet in boiler room. Little blood, and we lost him rather quickly. Prompted me to use the big bores from them on, the big bores really do work as advertised! Of course you will want to use a thinner jacketed bullet, as buffalo bullets don't expand too much on a thin scawny little ol' elk.

FWIW, compared to buffalo, elk are winnies, they really are. I still love to hunt them and eat them though

Wasn't it Elmer Keith that said that most most shots he has seen on elk were quartering away shots ? If so you do need penetration to get into the vitals.He also liked big bore so 36 Whelen,338,375H&H or close in 45-70 would be suitable.

Well Blue, as with most threads there are many opinions expressed. I too believe in aiming for the off side. I don't look for a shoulder shot only but always try to put one through the happy spot in the middle where the heart, lungs, and aorta are all close in proximity. I am not perfect and this idea in shot placement allows me to put it through the onside shoulder, through the happy spot and exit a lung. I'd much prefer the opposite, and I too think the quartering away is pretty common. The last one I shot was spooked toward me and hung up in the trees. All I could see was the neck so thats where I shot him. It missed the spine low but caught both jugulars and he dropped in only a few yards.

On another note, there wouldn't be anything wrong with the seven mag and some 160 or 175's for elk. My favorite is a .338 with a 22" barrel but if you have a 7mm mag then spend your money on a good pack, good boots, a Wiggy sleeping bag, or a membership at a gym. Any of those things will make your trip more enjoyable than a new rifle.