I've been a member on here a while and don't want to starting a flaming war, but it seems as though every rifle sucks according to the members of this board:

Remington: Stupid j-locks and custom shop sucks

Winchester: QC Sucks

Weatherby: Overhyped POS

Ruger: QC sucks and can't build a custom rifle

Savage: Ugly as anything but accurate

Sako: TRG-S stocks break, 75 synthetic stocks
suck otherwise ok

Berretta Mato: Actions suck won't shoot overall sucks

Custom guns: overpriced and can only get half value so they suck

I know I have forgotten some but what guns will you folks buy

Don't flame me, these have been the general impression I have gotten on here. My collection is pretty well complete. Just wondering if we are all becoming pessimist or expecting too much? Have at it.

Jim

My cup is half full. I went to the range yesterday and my new M70 fired on the first pull of the trigger! Not only that but the bullet hit within an inch of where I expected.

Tommorrow my buddy and I will cruise some gun shops and I will see his "new" 1940's M 71 Deluxe.

Things are good over here. The sun is out.

I use a VKT. Never heard of that? Me neither until I accidentally got one.

It's a Finnish battle rifle based on the Russian Mosin Nagant line. Sako used to make them too. Vintage 1944 barrel on a receiver made in Russia in 1900. Almost antique.

Stout. Simple. Made to be field stripped by uneducated peasants.

Inconvenient safety, but once you get used to it, it's OK.

1.25 MOA with handloads.

It brings up lots of questions when I pull it out for deer hunting (Wow, that a Mauser? no. Enfield? no. What is it?)

Little bit of anecdotal history with it. A little more interesting than a late model firearm IMHO (although there's nothing wrong with them....)

You can get one in NRA VG condition for $89.00 today.

I like it!

Sorry, I know that's not where you were going with your question, I just felt like chiming in.

Tim

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

Make mine commercial or custom 98 Mausers and their ilk. Yes, the custom varieties sometimes suck if you invest alot and later decide to sell and want to recoup most of your cost, but otherwise they are sooooo satisfying!

Hey Jim:

You forgot to mention the CZ 550. Here is a Czech Republic made rifle that retails in the US for between $600-$700. Your question is about value creation and CZ is doing that.

If you have travelled to Eastern Europe then you know the standard of living challenges where CZ is forging a solid reputation in the world. Do I think we are expecting too much from the Western World rifle manufactuers? No, I do not.

I encourage you to post a summary of the responses you get. Thanks.

I never owned a CZ 550, I want one 416 rigby though(my wife thinks I have too many rifles now I can't imagine coming home with another, but maybe I can sneek it in ). The only complaint I've read about them is the "humpback" stock.

The last time I was in eastern europe was 1991 or 92. I went to Berlin after the wall came down. The economy was pretty crappy at that time.

Thanks for the reminder about CZ's.

Jim

Has anyone who has owned a Sauer 202 ever had anything bad to say about it?? It oozes quality. Lovely wood, beautifully finished, interchangeable barrel system. It fits my like it was custom made for me.

Anyone who hates their 202 can contact me and I will gladly relieve them of it. My son uses a 6.5x55, my daughter will use the 270 next year, I have a 30-06 and a ltwt synthetic 30-06 and the most beautiful 375HH I have ever seen.

Bill in NE

Bill in NE:

I came very close to buying a Sauer M80 Grand African in 458 Winchester. This was one of the most beautiful factory rifles I have ever seen. It is probably more of a semi-custom rifle. However, the rifle was intended for dangerous game hunting and I was concerned about the extraction durability of the Sauer. Not action strenght mind you, I have no doubt the Sauer is one of the strongest actions to ever come down the pike.

The quality, fit and finish were superb! I did not have experience with the design.

I tend to favor the pre 64 M70's esp the featherweights. I have three custom rifles on the following actions, Sako,Ruger (tang safty), pre 64 Win M70. When traveling I usually pack one of the Weatherby Ultra Lights.

I think you've stumbled onto a microcosm proving the truth in the old statement that opinions are like assholes...everybody's got one.

What works for one may not work for another. Try to get the BR guys to see benefit in CRF? Try to get the African guys to see the benefit of PF? There is no one right answer.

The magazines have perfected this to an art form with the decades of articles about the best caliber this that and the other. Simple physics apply to everything we do for the most part and much of the discussion you will find is a result of a lack of understanding in physics.

Beyond that preferences are often made on anecdotal information.

Personally I think there is not one good rifle/component for EVERYTHING. Having said that it's then a matter of selecting what's best for the task at hand. In a bottom line practical manner, with the way most of us hunt, it's pretty hard to argue with the purchase of some surplus type of rifle in a common caliber such that it can be shot often cheaply. There are quite a few good rifles out there for under $100. Beyond that there are quite a few $100 rifles out there being shot by guys that are much more deadly due to practice than the guys spending thousands of dollars on rifles and using them little. Like the saying goes, beware the man with one gun as he probably knows how to use it.

There's very little crap out there and much of what interests us is open for interpretation. The other side of the coin is to have no options and be dictated to...which generally leads to no options whatsoever for this type of pursuit.

Personally, I've learned that if you want something interesting, of quality construction, and potentially retained value, it's pretty hard to argue with the older factory rifles. The pre-64 Win 70's, the FN's, the Browning Safari's, the old Rem 30, the 721/722, along with military rifles such as the M1 Garand, the Springfield, the Enfield, the 98 Mausers. They all tend to shoot pretty well, tell a pretty good story, and seem to go up in price.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Reed

My guns are all pre J locks and have almost all been rebarreled by a good Gun Smith. A couple are Rem 600's and pre 64 Model 70 Winchester. I don't worry about new hype or new guns I am interested in guns that shoot well. If I had to get an out of the box rifle I'd stay with what I have and pass on a new ones. That's my 2 cents worth.

I mostly use the old Browning High-Power Rifle Series (Safari,Medallion,and Olympian Grades).Why?Well.....

1)They're EXTREMELY well built
2)They're reliable
3)They're superbly accurate,straight from the box
4)They're a handsome rifle

That's all I need in a rifle.

Brian.

Brian:

Good group of rifles you use. Question, what if you wanted a .416 Remington or .416 Rigby?

Buliwyf

Well lets see if we can change that...

Remington: Have a few Rem 700's...Never had a problem, always reliable, always accurate. Hard to beat for the money.

Winchester: Have two, they've really come back strong with the reintroduction of the pre 64. I love both Model 70's. Good stuff!

Weatherby: They may be overpriced, I don't know, but I can't complain about mine one bit. Would I buy another, sure.

Ruger: Only owned one and it was ok. Performed well so no complaints. The bolt chewed a little cartridge brass but other than that, it was fine.

Savage: Hard to beat for out of the box accuracy and when you add the economical cost, well, 'nuff said. Good product at an affordable price.

Sako: SWEET!!!!The cream of the crop if you ask me. I wouldn't trade my AV for anything, well maybe a Krieghoff Double but then I'd go get another Sako to replace the one I traded.

Beretta: Don't own one so I can't comment.

Custom: Maybe one day.

These comments may be very simplified but so be it.
Hey, I like this. Positive comments, what do you know.

The sporting arms industry is highly competitive and has been for quite a while. None of the surviving companies can fairly be described as in the opening statement. Some just suit different people better.

Question for Fla3006:

Do you include the M70 CRF in the "ilk"?

B

Maybe some folks have misinterpeted my initial post. I am not saying this about these rifles, this is the impression I have gotten, or a general consesus from the forum members. Here is what I currently have:

Remington: Model 700 Custom KS Mountain Rifle (350 Rem Mag)
Model 700 VLS Customized by HCR (223)

Winchester: Model 70 Laredo Customized by local 'smith (7 STW)

Weatherby: Don't currently have any but have owned probably 10 different ones and like them

Ruger: 77 Ultralight (tang safety) customized by Pac-Nor (338-284)

Berretta: None

Savage: None

Marlin: 22 Mag

Sako: TRG-S (338 Lapua), Mountain Eagle (Sako action built by Krieger 338 Win Mag), Arnold Arms Accumax (Sako action heavy barrel McMillen Stock 220 Swift)

Custom: (other than above) Dakota 76 (330 Dakota)

I like all of my rifles and have had no problems out of any of the current batch. I have traded off some real dogs from all of the major companies.

On another note, I know it will take up some bandwith, but I wonder if Saeed would mind, or if folks are interested in having a sort of virtual gun show. We could post pictures of our collections or our favorite rifle, kinda' like gun shows used to be. Just a thought.

Jim

Dang that keyboard!

[ 01-17-2003, 05:31: Message edited by: Brian M ]

Well,I'd either plop down around $4,000 and get one of the rare one in 404 Jefferys (close enough to a 416 Remington),or I'd just get one in 7mm Magnum or 300 Winchester and have it rebored and have the action tweaked at bit for the 416 Remington.That shouldn't cost more than about $300 all together for the work,and a nice used Safari 7mm can usually be picked up for $750-$850.

OR,I could just use my 1972 Safari 458 and be happy.

Brian.

[ 01-17-2003, 05:30: Message edited by: Brian M ]

338Lapua: I know what you mean - I personally always try to impart some positive knowledge from my experiences in my posts regarding product reviewing. I never get into the Ford/Chevy banter and nit picking. If I have a negative comment about a product or a Hunting practice I state it in a non-attack way. I used to frequent another board that constantly erupted in personal attacks. It overwhelmed the site. For that reason and the fact that the two guys that ran the board were political cowards. I told them they were cowards and unprincipaled people then left - never to return. Those two cowards refused to police or protect the board from the constant pest invasions and attacks by anti second amendment types and they are diminished.
I own a half ton of Winchester Rifles, about a quarter ton of Remingtons, lots of Rugers, several Sakos, 5 Kimbers, several custom Rifles, 2 Weatherbys, a couple Marlins and various other Rifles but I condemn no one that enjoys the Savage line. Or any other type Firearm I do not choose to own! Same goes wit scopes and bullet brands. To each their own I say! But on occassion I do defend with facts and or experiences the victim of an obvious misguided attack. The resulting flames do not normally motivate me in any way. I often just fire back at the flamer with more personal experiences and facts.
I personally think Remingtons are the best value going out there right now with all things being considered - durability, reliability, accuracy, cost, resale value, American made, easy to find parts and accessories (triggers, mounts, upgraded stocks etc etc etc). I just bought my first locking bolt Remington 700 and I really had to swallow hard to do it! I have had the Rifle 3 months now and it shoots so well and is such a sweet handling rig I have forgotten about the "J" lock! I was going to have the locking bolt shroud replaced but it is no longer high on my list of to do's.
I have never owned a modern Savage Rifle but I have shot along side them in the Big Game fields as well as the Varmint arena and at the range. Now after 55 years of never buying a new one - I am just on the verge of buying one! So be flexible, tolerant and observant in ones dealings with others. A person learns a lot that way and makes sincere frends instead of back biting cyber-adversaries. If someone goes out of their way to constantly be contrary and offensive then the solution is simple - ignore them!
To each their own and long live choice!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Great campfire discussion! I've noticed a lot of criticism of various rifles on this post, and, having spent a lot of time working in sales to 'Joe Public', I've learnt that there is a massive body of people out there who have 'all the gear and no idea'. (I actually saw this phrase as the name of a boat when I was coaching sailors!! Everyone has their own opinion, most of it based on their experiences of that particular item. Just ask people their opinion of 4x4's!! For me, I have been huntin/shooting for over 30 years, in a great variety of environments - my family owns a sheep station in the Outback of NSW, but I get to shoot in sub-tropical rainforest as well. I've actually seen people keep their rifle in a case to protect it when hunting in a 4x4! I've owned a Rem 788 in 6mmRem, Rem700BDL 6mmRem, 700 BDL 25-06, Ruger Mki 25-6, rebarrelled to HV, too heavy, another 77MkI 25-06, restocked, too pretty, among others. I see a lot of criticism on the board(s) and wonder how much is based on actual usage. I currently onw a Ruger 77MkIIRBZ in 270 (Timney trigger, Leupold 3-9x40 scope, a CZ527 American in 223 (Tasco 3-9x40 WC Scope) and a Striling 22mag with a 4x32. They DO THE JOB THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO, and they do it well. End of story. To me, they comprise the best battery of guns I've ever owned. They ain't pretty (they've been in the truck for a while, but they do what I want, when I want, how I want, and I can rely on them.
When these types of discussions surface up at the farm, I find that EVERONE has the same story - ie they have their own opinion, based on their own collective memories. We call it 'pissing in the wind'.

A nice rifle? Depends on what you buy, and who you talk to. Same with wine, guitars, fridges, washing machine, computers, ad nauseum.
Go with what you like - you will always find someone who will tell you that you have made the wrong decision - not many who will support you!
My 2 cents worth.
Rugeruser

Buliwyf- I haven't tried any of the new CRF M70's but I own 3 pre-64's which I definitely include among the 98 Mauser "ilk" or derivatives. My favorite commercial 98 types are FN's, Brno's, HVA's, Oberndorfs, older M70's and Brevex & Vector magnums although I don't have a Vector (yet). I also have a Rem 30 which is a great piece.
338Lapua- I think a virtual gun show is a great idea. Perhaps Saeed might add another forum devoted to pics of members' guns?

[ 01-17-2003, 19:56: Message edited by: fla3006 ]