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Good morning, Since we have been on this accuracy thing lately, I thought I would throw a question into the ring. Here it is... If someone made up their mind that they were going to become proficient with an aperture sight, how good could you get? I'm asking in terms of the larger aperture hunting sights not the target apertures. Are they good for short range woods hunting? Are they better for open country? What kind of ranges are practical for someone proficient with an aperture sight? How do groups with aperture sights compare to groups shot with a scope, from the bench and hunting positions (for most people)? TIA, Bob | ||
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quote:You can attain 0.25 MOA aiming accuracy with reasonably good aperature sights properly used on proper targets. Deer don't wear targets so you will not accomplish this level of accuracy on them, however, the same would apply to scopes as well in this regard. In any event, they are great hunting sights when properly used under reasonable conditions. If you want to shoot in the dark, they have liabilities. BTW, you can get quality aperature sights with instancly adustable aperatures to adjust for most any legal hunting light situation. These usually go by the monicker "hadley eye cups". Good aperture sights cost real money by the way. Brent | |||
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I have shot 1 inch 5 shot groups with a 3/32 peep and sourdough front sight. The target was a conventional 6 inch black circle with 2 inch center. It takes very little practice to get so that the peep sights are as fast as any. Using the standard aperture rear sight and post front on the M14 service rifle human silohuettes were a simple target at 350 yd and misses were rare (for me). I think 250-300yd shots on big game would be no problem with such sights. The furthest shot I have made on big game with peep sight was about 75 yds however. Regards, Bill. | |||
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It's a regular thing for me to hit the spotter pin again and again at 200 yds in postition matches. The spotter pin is a wooden or plastic pin that if in the previous hole must be about 5/16" in diameter. It may not always be in straight so it may present a larger target at times. This is with apeture front and rear sights of course on a 40X that will shoot ten shots into .375 or better MOA from a bench. When this happens it delays the target going up in the pits but they are used to it and get help. I missed a nice buck once with iron sights. It was legal light but still not bright enough to see the front bead on the ramp. I estimated the height of the bead as I could see the ramp. This was when I was a kid long long ago. I don't know if I would take that shot again. I like scopes for hunting for the safety aspect to identify the target. Sure enough some wordsmith will twist this around to make it seem like I say to look for game with the rifle scope. I didn't say that. I said that if your going to shoot at something to make sure it and the background is safe. Of course my pistols and some shotguns have "iron" sights but they are for close range. Where I hunt most is in VT and there is no requirement for hunters orange at all and in fact most of the natives refuse to wear it. The bear season is open at the same time as the deer season also. This adds up to the fact, im my mind, that the best use of a hunting scope is safety. | |||
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What would you guys recommend for a front site when using a peep rear? I've got a 7.65 Argentine sporter arriving soon with a 50's vintage Lyman peep and I think I'll need all the help I can get. Should I consider having a gold, silver or bone bead added to the front? I haven't inquired that closely on the front sight but from the pictures I was sent it looks like a standard black poet. Thanks, | |||
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I don't know what the limit is, but I put a Mojo aperture sight on my Swedish Mauser, and can pretty routinely do 1 3/4" groups at 100 yards. You can see their web site at www.mojosights.com. In low light, they are not as good as a scope, of course. But for 59 year old eyes, that can't see the rear sight anymore, they are a great improvement over blade sights. Price is $50, and the rear sight has full windage and elevation control. | |||
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As Savage99 said, aperature sights are the berries for target shooting. With a Merit adjustable rear aperature and properly sized front aperature, on a round bullseye target with good light, I do not feel a bit handicapped. In 1995 I put 14 thirty cal. holes in a 3" spotter disc (as described by Savage99) shooting from prone position using aperature front/rear @ 600 yards. The group measures 2.610" and the 14th shot took out the spindle. Larger rear aperatures can be sufficiently accurate for hunting, but, not with poor light @ dawn & dusk, nor or they suitable for "older eyes". If you can still see the sights clearly, they will do the job. Regards, hm | |||
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Bottom line is I find the Ghost apature all I need for shots up to 200 yards, after that the scope prevails, but I would not hesitate to take a 300 yard shot with a rest on a broadside deer or elk...and for offhand shooting at up to 150 yards, but not beyond, I will take a receiver sight every time over a scope. I shoot perhaps a little better with a receiver sight than I do with the English V, but either will do up to my self imposed limit of 150 yards...Regardless, I don't shoot at game at over 300 yards these days except on very rare ocassions.. It took my son about 20 minutes to talk me into a 410 yard shot on a real nice whitetail a number of years ago..I killed it clean, but thats the last long shot I've taken. I like to think I'm a good enough hunter to cut those long shots in half or better... | |||
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The Army and Marine rifle teams fequently shoot possibles in 1000yd matches with peep sights and (highly modified) M14's. So I'm told. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:BB, if you have a 3/8" dovetail up front, it is hard to bet a Lyman 17A for deadnuts solid performance. In addition to the Lyman inserts tha fit it, there are custom inserts from Lee Shaver and Ron Snover available. I use the 17A with a Shaver crosswire in it for hunting or a Snover aperture sight for targets. The 17a has a thick knurled locking ring that holds the inserts in. I do not like it being so thick, and have thinned it down on my "lathe" (aka drill press w/ file). But I use the 17a so modifided on all my hunting and target rifles except the flintlock. It is cheap to at ~$25. Brnet | |||
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Here's a question regarding apeture sights- What's the best target (or procedure) for doing load development with these sights? I can hit and kill with iron sights, no problem. You've got a big target to shoot at. But when you are reloading for accuracy, I sometimes find it hard to say that I am consistently aiming in the same spot as the shot before, unlike with a scope. Do I just need a bigger target that is easier to see? PS My eyes are fine. | |||
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I put a Williams aperture on my Rem muzzleloader with a fiber optic front. Took some getting used to but am able to keep 3 inside of 2" @ 100 yrds. I'm pretty confident to 150yrds with it, which is a long as I would go with the muzzleloader. steve | |||
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Gatehouse, you don't need a bigger target. What you need is to recalibrate yourself to a new idea of sight picture. If you have front and rear apertures, all you have to do is line up so that the white space between the rear aperture and the front aperture is equal all around, AND the white space between the front aperture and the aiming black is also equal in width all around. Imagine concentric circles. This may be hard to understand using words only to describe it, but it becomes intuitively obvious once you see an illustration. So, here they are: These show a few holds using a rear aperture and a front post: Six o'clock hold  Center of mass hold  This is the correct hold when using front and rear aperture sights.  | |||
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Thanks... What would you say are the size of the targets in your pics? 6"? I generally use small black squares when using scopes. (I use scopes more often than not.) | |||
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quote:Gatehouse, I use 7" bulls at 100 yds. BUT this is calibrated to the size of the front aperature so that I see a small white ring around the black bull within the front aperature. If you are concerned about your aiming accuracy (as opposed to your rifle's accuracy), there is a way to check this. But you should be good for about 0.25MOA of aiming accuracy. Brent | |||
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quote:Gatehouse, those illustrations are based on standard NRA highpower rifle targets, where the aiming black is 6 MOA. | |||
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Thank you all for the responses! The thing that got me thinking about this was that when I was at the range a couple weeks ago there was a gentleman who was shhoting a black powder cartridge rifle with a tang aperture sight. He was shooting off hand at a steel plate 200 yards away and he was kind enough to let me take a crack at it. Now, I'll be the first to tell you that I don't practice shooting off hand as much as I should and I thought that anything within range of this rifle was in danger! However I was amazed at the regularity with which I was able to hit the plate, and when I missed it wasn't by much. This got me thinking that up to that range I might be able to shoot better with the aperture sights!?!? I have always thought that the magnification of a scope caused me to over correct when I wavered off my intended target. Anyone else have similar experiences or similar thoughts comparing scope to aperture sight shooting? Keep those responses coming! It has been interesting to here of others experiences with this type of aiming system. Thanks, Bob | |||
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quote:Bob, Quality tang sights with quality front sights (usually hooded inserts), are a well know "secret" to those of us that use the bpc rifles. So, the next thing you know, we adapt them to our muzzleloaders and our squirrel rifles and anything else that comes to hand. I do not hunt with anything else anymore. But take a good look at quality sights like MVA's at www.montanavintagearms.com. These are the sights against which all others are measured. They are not cheap. The only way to save a buck that I am comfortable with is to use a Lyman 17A up front with Shaver inserts. This is a rock-solid sight that will cost you less than $50 with the Shaver inserts. Otherwise, prepare to pony up real cash. I recommend you stay away from Soule type sights and stick with verniers or the Marbles types. Add an adjustable eyecup like the Hadley if you might be shooting long range. I've taken antelope out to 260 yds with this set up. With a modern highpower chambering, it would be simple to go much further. Brent | |||
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Large aperture peeps are all I used for the 1st 15 yrs. of deer/hog hunting on a mod 94. I did not find them inadequate for low light except that I missed an intervening branch in the sight picture one evening and missed the deer. Made one of the finest running shots of my life at dusk in dense cover with the setup on a spike buck...right behind the ear. Precision? All I need. Compared to scopes? Little practical difference I think on big game within a few hundred yards. JMHO. | |||
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all the accurate stuff that comes from aperatures sights has to be target sights....if the sights are matched to the target like in smallbore rifle like I shot as a kid...its easy,,,, but you couldnt HUNT with those sights! an arperature sight for hunting has to be large...its fast and can be HUNTING accurate, but not accurate as normally used.....plus most guys would be wise to understand that their eyes will soon not be able to use sights spread so fat appart...its called a strange phenomina called "getting old" you cant focus on all three objects....even to the point of being able to hunt with them....for a while the middle aged guy may be able to focus two good and the third..sorta OK....but it gets worse.....If you have great eyes...knock yourself out...most people dont....and should understand this before jumping both feet into iron sights. I do think kids should learn to shoot with iron sights before they get to use scopes.....good luck....bob | |||
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With my Marlin 1895 with either Ashley Outdoors or Williams sights I can hit a target the size of a deer's vitals offhand every time at 150 yards. I don't think you can expect or need more than that with aperture sights. | |||
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quote:Bob, I use target sights for hunting all the time. They are extremely adaptable to hunting. In fact, many target sights are just hunting sights made with better tolerances. You also do not understand the way they work if you think that you have to focus on both the front and rear. Even with barrel sights you should not do this. The entire point of aperture sights is that they help you overcome age-related eye issues. I regularly get out shot by retired guys using aperture sights. They work wonders for old eyes that know how to use them properly. That they provide a huge sight radius is another plus. My main rifle has a 36" sight radius that is just the ticket for shooting game a long range. Brent | |||
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I'm 69 years old and still shoot iron sights both shallow V and Ghost Apatures...I wear bifocals, I just don't use eyesight for an excuse not to shoot irons..I have no problems shooting irons with my specs on...I know a bunch of old PH's that still shoot irons...Most use the eyesight thing and age because they don't think they can shoot irons, and won't try them....when they do they are usually amazed.... I would NEVER use a hooded front sight while hunting, they are not condusive to hunting IMO..I toss the hood and keep and extra front sight in my grip cap... | |||
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quote:WHY? I have used hooded and unhooded sights and like the former better. Esp, since it allows the use of different front inserts (extras of which I keep in my wallet). I find bright sun can cause significant changes in point of impact unless I make extra deliberate adjustments. One thing I hate to do while hunting, is make more adjustments than necessary. There are always a few, which is part of the challenge, but this is one I prefer to avoid. Of course, my sights are not simple, removable hoods but integral to the entire front sight and cannot be removed. Seems to work for an awful lot of folks that hunt with these sorts of rifles and sights anyway. Brent | |||
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I GOT AN APERTURE REAR SIGHT FOR MY BEEMAN THAT I SHOOT SQUIRRELS WITH. BEEMAN SIGHTS ARE MUCH LIKE WILLIAMS SIGHTS WITH ADJUSTMENT KNOBS ON THEM. BRENT I LIVE JUST SOUTH OF FT DODGE IOWA. WHERE ABOUTS ARE YOU ?? THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL.............. | |||
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even with a large apperature shooting in dim light is difficult, like a rainy day, or a very cloudy day or early and late when hunting can be the best. As with everything, there are always eceptions, and i figured someone who shoots good with them and is older would speak up...I still think seeing the target clearly and a fuzzy front sight, weather post or bead or whatever, and getting it centered is more difficult for the average guy the older he gets....I have shot with many types of sights, I have even made some precision sights for use with my silhouttee guns, and my black powder rifles.....I know the NRA small bore sights we used as a kid had a small apperature in the rear and a ring on the front sight...and wow sure enough the bull JUST HAPPENED to fit exactly in the front sight at the range we shot at!!!!!....iron sight have to block parts of the animal at longer ranges!!!!! but like all subjects there are those in favor of both sides.... or many different sides in some cases.....Bob | |||
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quote:Yes. I prefer aperature sights for offhand shooting........covers up my "wobble zone". I tend to "get on the trigger" when using a scope and can see how much the rifle is wandering around. quote:Actually, you do not focus on all three points. That is one advantage of a rear aperature sight. The eye automatically centers an aperature rear sight. Focus on the front sight and center your target in front aperature or on post front. Want to test this theory? Using a rifle that FITS you and being very careful to get a GOOD cheek spot weld each shot, remove the rear sight on your rifle and shoot a group @ 100 yds focusing on front sight as described above. You will be very surprised at the results. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} 2-3" groups are not uncommon IF your eyes can focus on the front sight and you are careful with your spot weld/position.I am 67 years old and use aperature front & rear on targets to a good advantage. Blackpowder hunting in Colorado requires "iron" sights. I really have a problem seeing a front post but front aperature is not very good for hunting IMHO, so installed rear ap. and front fiber optic and get good hunting accuracy out of my Hawken out to a very comfortable 100-125 yds. Absolutely cannot see V rear sight any longer. The farther the front sight is away from the eye, the better, especially w/older eyes. Regards, hm | |||
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quote:Tasco, I'm between Story City and Ames. - Exit 123 on I-35 Brent | |||
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Regarding hooded front sights. I don't like them because: Harder to see the post in low light, unless you cut a hole in the hood. More likely to fill up with snow. Tendancy of the shooter to use the front hood as a front aperature during buck fever conditions. How many '94 Winchesters have you seen that still have the front hood? They didn't fall off, the owners pitched them. | |||
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Gatehouse, I use a scope for load development, then go back to irons to hunt. Okie John. | |||
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quote:Hey, I would too, but I'm not going to drill my Garand and other stuff for a cope that I never intend ti use! ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:Johnny Tell me more. Convince me not to sell my 94 because I hate that hooded sight....I thought they were pat and parcel... | |||
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I have an M1 Garand which I got from the then-DCM in the mid-1990s. It is a cherry H&R, which appeared to have been almost unfired when I received it... it was 99% original and there was very little finish wear on the parts which typically show wear on an M1. Anyway, this rifle is capable of making pretty small groups at 200 yards with its original sights. Off the top of my head, I can't recall the best group I've gotten with it, so I hesitate to say that it is capable of a certain size group, though I believe it is capable of better accuracy than I can demonstrate with it. I don't shoot it much anymore, as it is more valuable as a collector piece than as a shooter. I used this rifle to take my first deer. I used shooting sticks (a.k.a. "buffalo sticks") to support it in the field, and I was firing Federal premium ammo with 165-grain Nosler ballistic tips. I checked the accuracy of these rounds on 200 yard targets at the range before going hunting and so far as I recall the rifle seemed to like that ammo. Now I suppose that the excitement of shooting my first deer could have made me a little careless with the sight picture, but I made a 200 yard shot, give or take, off the buffalo sticks. I could have sworn the sights were aimed just behind his shoulder, though I hasten to add that at 200 yards the kill zone on a 150-ish pound buck looks pretty small through the rear aperature on an M1. Anyway, I fired and the buck jumped and ran. Thankfully he ran directly at the hiding place of my partner who then blasted him a second time with *his* M1, also firing 165-grain Nosler ballistic tips, from less than 50 yards. Upon dressing and quartering this buck, we found that my bullet had hit the deer right in the hip, so to speak. The bullet totally shattered his rear leg bone and blew bone fragments, etc., throughout the ham, totally ruining it. The other round-- my friend's bullet-- went in through the front of the ribcage and turned the buck's lung, stomach, etc., to jelly. The meat loss was very depressing to us, though I'm sure the local scavenger animals appreciated it. Anyway, the next season my friend and myself were both using scoped bolt actions. We decided that the M1s were great for CMP matches and shooting other humans in wartime-- in other words, great where meat loss isn't so much of an issue-- but not so great for hunting. | |||
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Brent, Do you have any problem with target aquisition using a Lyman 17A for hunting? And any idea how to determine what height 17A to use with a Marlin 1895,late seventies one with the straight stock? thanks, rob | |||
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quote:Rob, I don't have any trouble with acquisition at all. BUT, I don't take running shots (except on bunnies and then I use an unhooded Marlin 39A with tang sight). I generally don't hunt on the dim side of dark-30 (illegal anyway) and I use crosswire inserts up front (from Lee Shaver @ www.egunsmith.com, or via Brownells). The advantages of the wires are that I only need to see 2 of the 4 segments against any background or animal to be able to aim accurately. Thus, if there is a lot of shadow below the animal in dim light, the lower segment is often unseeable, but if I can see either the left or right segment and the top, I'm good to go. Others like heavy post inserts. One thing I do NOT like about the 17A is the thick knurled locking ring. It is too heavy and blots out too much of the planet. So, I modify mine by simply mounting it in my poor-man's lathe (aka drill press) and cutting the knurling off (with a file), until it's the same outer diameter as the rest of the sight. You can see this on my Sharps posted in the Virtual Gun Show thread. I would think that you could go with the lowest Lyman for your Marlin, but I don't know how they are set up exactly. Brent | |||
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