I'm returning to hunting after too many years away. I selected a new .270 Win, for it seems to be a great "all around" caliber for the game Nevada offers.

I need recommendations for a .270 Win bullet for cougar. I'm hunting in northern Nevada in a high desert/rangeland topography.

I'm not using dogs, preferring to track/stalk.

I want to have a full body mount and seek to damage the game as little as possible.

Thanks for your recommendations.

Any good 130 or 150 gr. bullet would work. The speer 150 gr. spitzer is my favorite.

Given certain circumstances, any bullet -- even a fully-metal-jacketed projectile -- can do significant damage to a pelt if major bones are hit or if the impact is around the edges.

I'd recommend the 150 grain Sierra GameKing. Driven to a moderate 2750-2800 fps, the high BC will allow you a fairly flat trajectory while the modest velocity will help assure bullet integrity -- and hopefully result in minimal pelt damage if you put the bullet behind the shoulder. And Re-22 is a top-flight choice to start with.

A cougar is not thick-skinned, heavy-boned or particularly hard to kill.

Good luck in your quest.

The very best recommendation I can give you is to go to Nosler's Proshop website and look at their "2nds" bullets.

I purchased 1000 of their 270 130 grain Solid Base bullets. This is the bullet that preceded the Ballistic tip. It is highly regarded as the best cup/core hunting bullet made.

You can pick up bags of 50 for only $6.95.

I have 2 loads in it already and they happen to be what Nosler found to be very good as well.

1) 58.0 Re22
2) 57.5 H4831SC

Both measure just under 0.4 for 3 shot groups, 3 strings each. I used Winchester brass and Federal 210 match primers. Though Nosler's older manual shows the Re22 to be best, their most recent data switched to Hodgdon 4831SC.

Re22 was tightest group for me.

Good luck with whatever you choose, but I can tell you, you won't go wrong with that bullet at that price.

Doc-

I have to agree: those old-style Solid Base bullets are fantastic. I stocked up on the 7mm/140 and a few in .30 caliber as well.

I didn't realize any were left.

I just checked the site, and the remaining bullets, however, do have a cannelure, but for that price, they are a tremendous deal. Wish I needed some of those...

nvhunter-

I forgot to add: WELCOME to the AR forums. Hope you enjoy them.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I should have mentioned that I do not CURRENTLY reload and am now using factory ammo.

(Any factory ammo recommendations would be greatly appreciated.)

HOWEVER, that will change, the cost of ammo today is ridiculous, and as I am learning, I can create better loads myself, once I learn to reload.

I guess my next questions are:
Where is the best "reloading for dummies" type website/book?

How much would it cost to do basic, yet quality reloading, specifically, inital equipment setup costs. I'm skilled with rifles and my Glock, but I know NOTHING about reloading.

Thanks again, and have a great day.

Sorry about that. I did the usual and assumed you reloaded.

For factory ammo, a very good, do-all ammo that is hard to beat is Federal's partition load in either 130 or 150. My rifle printed 1.7" groups with it at 100 yards. (Which is why I load my own).

In terms of loading equipment, you can get an RCBS partner kit for about 165.00. The easiest way to learn is to buy a reloading manual or get some videos. The more accurate you want your loads to be, the more tools you'll need. It's just that way, and for your time and effort, it is my opinion that it is worth it.

But for basics, you need a press, shell holders, dies, a scale, a dial caliper, a way to prime your hulls if your press isn't set up for it, load books, which much is online and free anymore, case lube, case prep tools, powder, primers, bullets, ammo boxes, targets, a forgiving spouse, this website, and an open mind for various opinions.

For example, Lee equipment...many use it, like it, love it, been using it for decades, works well, isn't expensive, etc. I don't use it.

I like Dillon, RCBS, Redding, Hornady, and the stuff you can find at Sinclair, International.

Reloading/handloading is very enjoyable but can be extraordinarily dangerous. But, I personally hate case prep. Once I get to priming and powder throwing, I'm ok.

I have the Sierra loading videos with David Tubb that I'd be happy to mail to you if you will return them within a reasonable amount of time, say, 30 days? They are a big help for those who are new and interested.

quote:

Where is the best "reloading for dummies" type website/book?

For reloading or hand loading "how to" books I suggest that you pick up several references since most reloading manuals have basic information in the introductory sections. Two that have the most instructional material are the Lyman Reloading Handbook and Modern Reloading by Richard Lee. For starters try the Lyman book.

The powder manufactures' publications and websites are good also places to look. The manuals published by the bullet manufacturers are recommended as well. Nosler, Speer, Hornady, Barnes, etc all publish books and some have data on their websites.

Doc and Oday450,

Thanks much for the information.

Doc,
Thanks for your generous offer. Thanks a lot, but I'm certain I'll be buying the videos myself, along with the other items. I'm a very detailed oriented person, so I'm sure I'll be watching them often.

ODay450,
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll be looking for the "Lyman" book today to get started.

Yes, reloading is the way to go. I want to buy a 375H&H rifle and begin planning my trip to Africa. I previously NO experience with rifles .375 and up and the ONLY way to get familiar and confident with a caliber is with "trigger time". Lots of trigger time on .375 and .416 is expensive. Time to learn to reload.

Thanks again

Somehow I can't get impressed by all this learned discussion about whether a 270 (in any bullet configuration or loading) will be sufficient for mountain lion. I saw a mountain lion shot off a rock ledge at about 20 feet above ground ( near Zion in Utah) with a 22 pistol. She slumped upon the shot and was dead when retrieved. This is a thin skinned animal routinely shot by Westerners from time immemorial with 30-30s, 25-35, 38-44, and any caliber you want to name. Reading this discussion reminds me how readily the gun and ammo companies have sold newcomers on using ever more powerful loadings -and that bullet configuration is supposed to matter so much -(when bullet placement always carries the day) -maybe as a subsitute for accurate shooting - although I cannot imagine where cougars, pumas, catamounts, mountain lions, by whatever name are ever shot at long distance. But then I'm a New Yorker and couldn't know about mountain lions - so what do I know? (Sorry to get so teed off but the original poster seems like a perfectly nice guy who never saw a mountain lion close up. He already owns a rifle that, in my youth, the famous argument in the gun magazines was whether it was as good -or better than the 30-06 for shooting -what? Alaskan brown bear - a critter a heck of a lot bigger than the mountain lion. The 270, I would bet, regardless of bullet configuration, as a 130 gr. loading would plant the biggest and most adrenalin hyped mountain lion that ever walked. ( I will now retire to my bomb shelter to await incoming)

gerrys375,

Thanks for taking the time to comment, you'll receive no "in coming" from me.

Regarding my choice of .270 Win, I selected this caliber because in Nevada, there is much to hunt, includine, Big Horn Sheep, Pronghorn Antelope, Elk, Deer, Mountain Goat, and maybe soon, Black Bear in addition to Cougar. Many of these animals are harvested at great distances. I wanted a rifle that could be used for most of these game animals. I'm finanically comfortable, but I do not want to spend any more money than is necessary. .270 Win is a popular caliber with hunters I have personally communicated that have lived in this area their entire lives.

I have an email from a Professional Outfitter here in NV that offers guided cougar hunts with and without dogs and his recommendation was any caliber OVER .270 for my type of hunt.

I'm not sure what you mean by "long distance", but cougars are sighted often here by those that know where to look for them. I'm very new and still learning this topography. You are correct that I have not seen a cougar "close up"...

Nevertheless, it's great to be preparing for hunting again. gerrys375, I appreciate your honest opinion. Please keep em' coming

I'm planning to get to Africa, likely next year.
I can't wait to see the replys when I inquire about using .375H&H on Cape Buffalo or Lion.

Thanks again and have a great day.

Try some 130 gr. core lokt's. They usually shoot pretty well out of most rifles.

Gerry375 wrote:

quote:

Somehow I can't get impressed by all this learned discussion about whether a 270 (in any bullet configuration or loading) will be sufficient for mountain lion...Sorry to get so teed off

Gerry, to be blunt, you need to work on your reading comprehension before you make such a ridiculous statement. The poster NEVER questioned whether or not a .270 WCF was sufficient for couger. He wanted advice for a bullet that would minimize pelt damage.

This is what you missed in his post:

"I need recommendations for a .270 Win bullet for cougar. I'm hunting in northern Nevada in a high desert/rangeland topography.

I'm not using dogs, preferring to track/stalk.

I want to have a full body mount and seek to damage the game as little as possible."

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:

Gerry, to be blunt, you need to work on your reading comprehension before you make such a ridiculous statement.

I agree. The main point of the post was clearly written as a "all around" caliber and reduced pelt damage was mentioned about the cougar. The man already made his rifle choice and was simply seeking some advice from there.

I'm not doggin you, but I don't think you read the post cautiously.

Doc-

Gerry probably didn't read the post at all and formed his tenor simply because someone will be hunting cougar. Add Gerry absolutely, positively does not want anyone to hunt a cougar or a wolf.

This is what he (Gerry375)once posted:

"Frankly, I don't think that anybody except ranchers, farmers or sheepherders have a right to hunt mountain lion ( or whether called puma or cougar). We need to protect them - and I don't care if I'm called names about this. There are some animals that should not be hunted for "sport". Mountain lion is one - wolves are another."

Bobby Tomek:

I fail to see the point of your quote. I think mountain lion should only be hunted by ranchers, farmers and sheepherders -who expereience real damage from them. Otherwise it is an animal that preserves balance in the herds (that don't eat meat). If you think that's not important, I invite you to take a look at Eastern white tail deer herds who have no natural predators anymore -and how stunted they are in many areas. I didn't misread the poster. If you want to save on pelt damage -use a 22 pistol. That's what I saw and it sure worked. Another solution is a steel jacketed bullet and use on tissue areas only. Of course, I want lions to be hunted to some extent. (The California ban on hunting them is totally wrong) I just want them hunted by people who have to stop their depredations. There just aren't enough of them to support sport hunting any more. In any event,let's agree to disagree.

And the re-introduced wolves are really "balancing" herds in the West, aren't they???

Tell you what: to appease your greenie side, I'll promise to never, ever shoot a cougar or wolf with anything but a lead-free bullet, OK?

quote:

There just aren't enough of them to support sport hunting any more.

You are absolutely flat out wrong on that Gerry, lion populations are robust and expanding.

A problem for NV is that CA and OR lions have been dispersing there for quite a while and NV's big game herds can't take the additional pressure.

Every state that has lions should be managing them, management that includes hunting. I'd prefer to see animals taken for depredation to be taken by someone who will pay to do so and utilize the lion.

The documented depredation take of lions in CA is now about 4 times what the recreational hunter harvest was when the last season was held in 1972. The lions taken under depredation permits go to a landfill for the most part.

Bobby Tomek:

I had refrained from getting down with you before on the assumption that you were a Texan. ( Some of my mother's people settled in Mundy, Texas, before "The War". and I have known more Texans than your kind ever heard of. By your name I know you are a latecomer to Texas and probably are "all hat and no cattle". You are an insult to real Texans who never pick a fight where someone wants no fight. I was simply arguing an issue - there was no need for insults. You could take a lesson in manners from the poster after you, Skinner, who has posted a reasoned statement -without insults. He may very well be right and I would yield to his statements therefore. If I'm wrong (and Skinner's statements indicate I could be wrong)then I'll apologize - but not to the likes of you, mister.

Gerry-

Who is picking a fight here? You came onto the thread, never bothered to see what it what about and said this:

"Somehow I can't get impressed by all this learned discussion about whether a 270 (in any bullet configuration or loading) will be sufficient for mountain lion...Sorry to get so teed off"

That was your reply when in fact NO ONE asked if a .270 WCF was sufficient for cougar.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine. I merely corrected you. If you view that as an insult, then so be it.

But let me correct you again, for you stated: "By your name I know you are a latecomer to Texas and probably are "all hat and no cattle"."

Really??? If 138 years of my family residing in the great State of Texas makes me a latecomer, then, by the same parallel, you saying "no cougar or wolf should be hunted" absolutely makes you a PETA greenie, right?

You started this...not me. I am as cordial as anyone you'll find, but I will not sit back and take internet garbage, either.

In that vein, you wrote: "there was no need for insults. You could take a lesson in manners from the poster after you, Skinner, who has posted a reasoned statement -without insults."

Please show me where I posted an insult. I challenge you to that end.

Well, I will refrain from insults and respectfully disagree with the notion that cougars should only be hunted/killed by ranchers, et al.

I have several friends who reside in CO and cougar numbers are plentiful.

Wolf and cougar are on my "to do" list and I make no apologies, but it is for sport hunting only. I do not plan on eating a wolf or a cougar.

Wherever populations of mountain lions are sustainable they should be hunted with a realistic scientifically developed criterion (shameless plug )

Giving every hunter in the woods a cougar tag for $5 and extending the season from August 1 to July 31 can have very poor results:

1) cat populations suffer drastically and move towards unsustainable
2) the proportion of females with kittens that are harvested goes way up (in proportion to their availability)
3) immigration of young males into areas which are not managed at the proper scale increases cougar/human conflicts and can lead to sexual segregation of females with kittens and (where the two are sympatric) can lead to disproportionate selection for mule deer. In other words, some hunting regimes if not chosen carefully can lead to an INCREASE on mule deer predation.

Back to the thread-- if .270 was all I had to stalk lions with I would go with a really light bullet and a very light load. If a .243 or .223 were available I would go with that.

Good luck however you go-- stalking and killing a mountain lion is a very difficult thing (not saying it can't be done) please be careful not to remove any females who are traveling with kittens

IV

Bobby Tomek:

I am ashamed for what I posted -in every respect and I hereby apologize. I am particularly ashamed that I cast any insults at your name and your family residing some 138 years in Texas. (My mother -born in 1891- with family who settled in Texas before "The War" would not be proud of me for shooting my mouth off) Your reasoned response to me shamed me even more. Please let this old "damyankee" say that I really do like Texans and that I was wrong. I honestly do feel that mountain lions and wolves should only be shot by the people in the West who are hurt by them. That's something on which we can honestly disagree without it coming to a gunfight. I guess that I teed off on you for calling me a "greenie". Put it down to an Irish temper -and again, please accept a truly meant apology.

From left field: Gerry and Bobby T, you both have showed that you are gentlemen, and I tip my hat to you both. Pity so many other web wars carry on for so long, with no one willing to give an inch (I am guilty of this at times, I admit). Sometimes a simple apology is plenty. Anyway, good show, boys.

Gerry375-

Apology accepted. While you and I do not agree on the wolf and cougar issues, I respect your right to your opinion and applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. And I hereby withdrawy my "greenie" reference which I cast during a moment of sarcasm.

Have a great day,
Bobby

140 grain Accubond

Standard box of 130gr Rem core-lokts

Wow! Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm grateful for the information.

What is the opinion of the 115 gr. reduced recoil cartridge by Remington?? Would this work on cougar at about 100 yards or less without ripping it apart?

I'm not recoil sensitive, but am curious as to this cartridge's performance.

I respect ALL opinions, including those that disagree with the hunting of large predators such as cougar and wolf.

The cougar numbers are ever increasing here in NV, partly due to California's cougar hunting ban and the population overflow eastward. "Problem" cougars, cats that come into populated areas can't be relocated due to issues with placing a problem cougar in another's territory. That's what a NDOW (Nevada dept of wildlife) guy told me.

As we all know, many hunt the cougar, and FEW get one. That's why I want to hunt one.

Locals here are very friendly and I was suprized that many hunters will gladly share their knowledge of possible cougar locations. Many hunters here have little interest in cougar as game, most want the Pronghorn, Big horn, deer and elk.

Ranchers are VERY happy to show tracks and welcome hunters quickly.

I guess I'm an "oddball", cougar hunting seems to generate little interest. I know it will be great.

Thanks again for all suggestions

nvhunter:

I'm going to confine myself to a very narrow remark. I was never a reloader of the 270 and always used factory loads. I also never shot at a live animal with the 270. My impression was that the 130 gr. was deadly accurate. My same impression (from bench rest) was that the larger weight bullets (even only up to 140 gr.) did not group as well. I have heard -and I freely admit that it was sheer talk and I have no personal experience -that the heavier bullets skewed and hit differently.{penetration was poor} I repeat that I never fired my 270 at a live animal (the only rifle I ever owned in my life, by the way, that I never got to shoot at a live animal. I had wanted to hunt Wyoming antelope - I never got there - I shot a Cape buff - and I still would have loved to have been able to shoot a Wyoming antelope. Just an old man's thoughts for what they may be worth to you - but I do urge to you that I always heard that the 270 did not handle bullet weights or loadings about 130 gr. As far as the lower weights -whether in bullet weight or powder loadings, I just don't know. I am somewhat suspicious that Remington has managed to improve upon Winchester's superb 1926 invention!

Bobby Tomek:

Thank you.

For minimal hide damage use a bonded core bullet.

Im the 308 the Wife and I have had great results with the Federal factory 165 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw.

Even game like bobcats shot at @30 and @60 yards did not have any hide damage. Just an in hole and an out hole.

Tiy do not want a lead bullet that fragments.
Also an X bullet would work, but it might not expand much on a cougar.

The Trophy Bonded Bearclaws will. I shot a red fox in AK at 300+ yards with a Federal factory 200gr TBBC out of as 300 Win Mag. The bullet was found in the deep snow behind the fox, and had expanded nicely even on such a small animal at that distance.

I shot a honey badger ar @30 yards and a heyena at @ 40 in Zim with the 308 load, same story quick kill no hide damage.

You might consider the new Berger .277 bullets. Many who use Bergers for hunting report they enter but most always do not exit.

I can imagine a 130 grain Berger traveling at its slowest would go in and might not exit, leaving only a tiny entrance wound.

gerrys375,

I believe you were discussing situations similar to the one on the YouTube vid below:

This is from SE Carson City, NV. The State Capital.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jftkzhcf-ao

The news story:

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20080510/NEWS/333107943

nvhunter:

Many thanks for your posts. I watched the video and also, of course, read the article. Needless to say, it reinforced my thoughts that anyone directly harmed by mountain lions should have the right to shoot them on sight. I have to confess (and, now with a bow to eland slayer)that I am modifying and indeed, changing my objections to shooting of lions by sport hunters. I'm beginning to agree with an argument of northern California hunters that they should be allowed to shoot mountain lions because the total ban on shooting them in California has resulted in the most aggressive of them attacking joggers in state parks - and the mountain lion never had a reputation for attacking humans years ago -when we all could shoot them on sight.

The point about the article that jumped out at me was that the cat that was trapped and killed had killed "4 ewes,a ram and 7 lambs" in that one attack shown in the video. That really atsonished me. Predators (in my part of the country anyway) normally kill what they need to eat. (In my own part of the country, a fox in the chicken coop{usually a vixen} would kill and eat one chicken on the spot and kill a second chicken to carry off to feed her young. Only a weasel killed like that mountain lion -killing more than it could eat or carry away. In the case of the weasel, it was sheer blood lust and the joy of killing. That really changes my thinking about whether or not to allow sport hunting of mountain lion. In plain words, they may have gotten out of hand)

Eland slayer, I owe you another apology.

To my dismay, I see where I kept referring to Eland Slayer -where I meant to say Bobby Tomek. Bobby, please accept my now third apology! (Eland Slayer is also a good guy and I don't know why I involved him in our "fight".

Tracking and stalking for Cougar is a receipt for dismall failure! trust me on this one..I was raised in the denses population of Mt. Lions in the USA...