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I'll take a wild guess and say the shot went high and either went just above or just below the spine,temporarily knocking him out and then he came to and got out of dodge. I can't figure why there was not any blood but perhaps the partition didn't expand. | |||
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| one of us |
I would agree with Cheaha on this one. It the .338 can put a big hole through the Alaska pipeline (read today's news), it can do the same to a deer. Perhaps you missed the lungs. | |||
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| <heavy varmint> |
I would have to agree that holes through both lungs= dead deer so there is a chance you shot high above the lungs and bellow the spine and the shock on his spine knocked him down but I did shoot one deer with a .30 caliber bullet where the bullet went strait through without expanding (bullet failure) the deer went down within sight about 100 yards away. The bullet had took out both lungs but without expanding there was no blood trail so if you are reasonably sure you put holes through his vitals I would look close around every fallen tree, log, brushy area, or big rock within 150 yards of area. | ||
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| <Dan in Wa> |
The crows, ravens, magpies will find it for you in a day or two. | ||
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| one of us |
My guess is the bullet went in.. between the ribs, and came out between the ribs, and got little or no expansion, plus maybe were a bit "too" high and went under the liver and above the lungs. If it had been a 130 gr 270 bullet it would have opened up , but those big tough bullets will pop right thru. ------------------ | |||
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One of Us |
Is there such a thing as too much gun/ bullet for the job? Normally a 30-30 roundnose would do a bang up job on a whitetail at 75 yds. | |||
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| <William E. Tibbe> |
You missed! Better sight in your rifle. Kendall | ||
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one of us |
If it were me and I swore it was a good shot I would check the rifle at the same range to make sure something obvious like a knock on the scope had not occured and I was out of zero. Other than that it sounds like another good reason for training up that blood trailing deer dog. ------------------ Richard | |||
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| one of us |
quote: You may well have something here - maybe too much speed for the bullets to work. I assume this is a long range (200 metre plus) rig? ------------------ Richard | |||
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| <ssleefl> |
I think Tibbes (Kendall) got it right. You missed and the concussion from that big bastard stunned him and knocked him loopy for a sec. If you want to kill from concussion with a 338 you need to be closer than 35 yards. Is that about right guys  ------------------ Most divorces are based on disagreements over small matters, so are most murders. | ||
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Moderator |
Did you find any hair? You will almost always find hair that has been cut by the bullet, it will only be a tiny patch usually but it will virtually always be somewhere around. If you didn't find any hair after a close search then I'd guess you might have missed, but if there was some hair then I'd suspect the bullet didn't open, but my hunch is that there is a dead deer somewhere close by that you are missing.... | |||
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one of us |
I shoot a .338-06 & am thinking not enough resistance for the 225gr bullet to open. The shot could have been a bit too far back or high & you failed to score a decisive hit. When hunting deer size game w/ a med. heavy, I try to place the bullet closer to the front of the chest to get both heart/lung & maybe a shoulder as well. Sorry to hear you lost him. | |||
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| <Harald> |
Heider, nothing is a death ray. If he went down you clearly did not miss and you certainly did not stun him with the noise of the shot. It is possible that the hit missed lungs but approached the spine closely enough to be temporarily stunning. This effect is often observed. Based on my own tests, manufacturer data, other tests, and my knowledge of metallurgy I submit that the possibility the bullet simply did not expand approaches zero. Its a satisfying theory but the data does not support that conclusion. Partitions are soft and expand at velocities as low as 1900 fps, but they also tend to fold back tight against the shank at some velocities and that would make a very small exit wound in some cases. The deer died, probably in a matter of seconds. I'm sorry that you lost it. I've been foiled too in thick cover. A blood trailing dog is a good idea where legal. | ||
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| one of us |
Now we're going to have posts wanting to debate if the .338 is adequate for deer. | |||
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| <heavy varmint> |
I don't think it should be a caliber war, maybe a proper bullet war. The 225 grain Partition is probably great for plowing through elk but I'd bet that a balistic tip would make quicker work of a deer. | ||
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| one of us |
I took a shot at a springbuck sitting down behind a bipod in thick cover. Everything was rock steady and I had been waiting for him to come in to me for about half an hour. At 85 paces he stopped and I took the shot. The rig is capable of three inches at 300 and after I fired, he looked at me and trotted off, eventually speeding up and doing the running jump. I was stunned. After much head scratching, tugging at scope, muttering and shooting a small rock at 200 from the same position, I found a small twig broken off cleanly about 5 paces ahead of the muzzle and in the line of flight. Maybe your bullet was similarly deflected to a lesser extent and partially expanded on the way to the deer and wound up in the gut or some other non-vital area. If the bullet is compromised before impact, it may not penetrate fully. ------------------ | |||
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| <Gary Rihn> |
I'd have to say it was a case of spinal shock, like others have suggested. I shot a nice whitetail back a few years back with a 12 ga slug at about 90 yds. At the shot, he dropped and started rolling down the hill. I figured "dead deer" from the way he dropped. I had to work my way around a few things to get to him, when I got there, he was gone! (I never saw him get up & leave). There was snow, so I took his track. I found about 3 small drops of blood in the first 75-100 yds, then nothing but his tracks in the snow. I heard a shot in front of me so kept going. I found a guy standing over him. There were two hits on the deer. One perfect broadside hit, obviously the killing shot. Another just creased him across the spine, leaving about a 2 inch slice across his back. Since I only heard the one shot, it was easy enough to deduce who's deer it was... That deer hit the ground so hard when I shot that I would've bet you he was dead in his tracks. If that other hunter hadn't killed him & I got to see my actual hit, I would still be convinced I put a fatal shot on that buck. | ||
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| One of Us |
What range is your gun sighted for? If its sighted for 200 then a high hit is that much more likley. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
All, This just proves my long held opinion. The 338 Win Mag just isn't enough gun for whitetail! Better get a true big bore. I agree with the vast majority here that you most likely hit slightly high and stunned him only. If you didn't hit anything important he may still be running around the woods (slightly wiser than he was before). Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
Even when the bullet does not open up or even with a solid, you get a fairly decent blood trail with the 338. I shoot Impala and such with the 250 Nosler and Woodleigh solids all the time and it gets a, like I said, decent blood trail 100% of the time. It is usually in the form of a spray as the front feet hit the ground... Perhaps you clipped the top or just missed the spine, I have seen this happen...I have seen the shot above the lungs and below the spine happen on the larger animals but never on the smaller animals as the gap on the smaller animals such as deer is almost non existant, but it could happen I suppose. One thing is sure and that is you did not make a killing shot, and bullet performance is not part of the equation IMHO... ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
I just did (almost) the same thing on a bull moose. I shot a 35 Whelen high through the ribs, and the bull took off like a scalded dog. My son found 2 tiny little drops of blood, or I would have assumed it was a clean miss. Not a drop to be found in the next 200+ yards. Turns out the 250 gr. Hot Core went in between two ribs and out between two ribs. The hole in the hide was big enough to poke my index finger in == only up to the first knuckle (that's .65"). There was no blood trail, even where the animal finally fell. On the other hand, I shot a bull elk a couple of years ago a little higher than that, and pulled the bullet under the spine through the tenderloins, and there the blood sprayed out: like Ray said, the blood loss was enormous. Here is my $0.02. I would say you hit a high lung shot in a lobe without a major artery, and the animal ran until the lungs finally filled with blood. Higher than that, and the blood trail would have been bigger, lower than that, and the animal would not have been stunned. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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| one of us |
I would think it would be a choice of spine, straight through between ribs or horror of horrors I don't think it's possible to rule out gut. Having said all that I would reckon spine. I've shot a lot smaller deer with my 9.3x62 and the partition at 2,100fps impact velocity has allways left an exit hole at least as big as a faster smaller bullet of non ballistic tip type. All you can do is check zero and put it down to experience. We've all had something like this happen and no doubt if we take time of from our keyboards will have it happen again at some point - the trick is merely to do everything possible to minimise it which in my case is making sure I don't flinch as I pull the trigger. | |||
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| <Jeff S> |
Man...where is 500 grains when we need him? | ||
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| <dickens> |
your bullet was the right choice for elk although not the only and it is fine for whitetails a lighter one would be better. but there is no way it did not expand some. if you hit high above the lungs and below the spine some times a deer will not die and you may see him again in a few days. | ||
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| <monty> |
Funny things can happen. I once shot a buck with a 45-70 400 grain Speer bullet at 20 yards or less. I expected the deer to drop on the spot. It turned and took two hops made a funny right turn and vanished as if the ground had swallowed it. It was right at dark and try as I might I could not find the buck or a blood trail. I went back the next day and started tracking from scratch. About 20 feet from where it was shot I found it. The area was littered with windfall trees. There were two trees lying about two feet apart with a third tree on top forming a �funnel�. The buck had dove directly into the funnel and was nearly impossible to see. On a different note, I wasn�t two happy with the bullet performance as the entrance wound was about 4� in diameter. What remained of the bullet was lodged against the hide on the opposite side of the buck. | ||
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| <BigBores> |
Having shot several deer and elk with my 338WM and partitions, I would have to agree with Ray. The blood trails have always been very wide and very short. My buddy borrowed it one year for a cow elk hunt, no practice, not much rifle experience, (I tried to get him to practice...) and gut shot the cow. Even that shot left a huge "spray" area behind the shot. So I doubt it was a gut shot, besides at that close range I would say the chances are much better that it was a high hit, missing the lungs and spine. He's probably still out there behind a tree, maybe ran a good 600yds or so. Too bad it's lost. | ||
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one of us |
I think you just touched the upper side of the spine. The animal gets unconscious and falls on the spot. However, it recovers fast and leaves an astonished hunter staring. Most wounds will heal after some time as no vital parts are damaged. It�s a classic failure on moose hunting. There are many stories about mooses which drop on the spot but run away some seconds later. One of this stories is about the lucky hunter, who had just castrated the big moose bull, when it eventually rose and ran away. The only he had of it was the xxxxx ... Fritz [This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 10-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 10-09-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
I agree with Fritz, I have seen this shot more than several times, a good lesson is to be ready with a follow up shot every time you shoot an animal and do it.... Keep in mind that ANY bullet will fail on ocassions. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
It sounds like the bullet did not open up properly. For light game and big bores you may want to try Hawk bullets with the 0.35 jacket which open up quite easily. | |||
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| <Flinch> |
It sounds like typical partition performance from my experience, even though a shot in the lungs would have killed him. I have had several experiences with partitions that were good solid shoulder shots with NO blood trail and NO tissue disruption whatsoever! The animals stayed on their feet for several minutes while I cleared a case head seperation. I no longer use partitions, they just don't do enough damage for my taste and a caliber sized exit hole is next to worthless. Just my opinion. Flinch | ||
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| one of us |
Heider, Add me to the chorus chanting: Good Gun: Bad Bullet. That particular bullet is probably great for Elk,but will not open up on lighter animals,like Whitetails. That same shot would be guarenteed freezer fill with my 30/30 and Hornady Interlock bullet. Some years back,I put TWO bullets broadside through both lungs of a little spike. He ran off,leaving NO blood trail,and I found him the next morning. I was using a 30'06 with 180 grain "all purpose" deer-bear cartridges. I learned from my mistake and never had THAT problem again good luck ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Condemming the Nosler as a bad bullet is just pure horse hockey and shows a total lack of experience in big game hunting...I have shot a lot of animals with Nosler bullets and have never seen a failure other than poor shooting by poor shooters who like to blame it on the bullet.... I will suggest the Noslers perform best for 30 cal and over, as they do not have the cross section of a softer bullet, but do have greater penitration than most bullets, a desirable trait to me is they do not bruise meat as bad as soft bullets and will always find the vitals...I have used them on duiker and Buffalo, Lion etc. all with the same results.....No they don't leave big gaping exit holes, you don't need that for a good blood trail, all you need is "two holes" to let air in that in turn pushes blood out.... ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
Heider, I think your bullet stuck the spinal process (the bone that sticks our from the vertebra); this will cause the behavior you described. PH Steve Tors told me on a hunt once that he really hates to see an animal *get up*. You might want to o to Saeed's Hunting section and check the photos there of Lou Hallimore's "The Pay Line". Lou likes to talk about animals shot over the pay line ramping the horizon, while you pay! jim ------------------ | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
The bullet must have missed a vital area by a tiny bit. Three things happened, the shooter missed, the rifles no longer sighted in or the bullet hit something on the way. That round is way more power or bullet than what is required for deer. While I don't like the .338 Win Mag myself its a very powerful round. If a survey were taken as to the load that would be a sure thing for that shot considering trajectory, energy and the most reliable bullet performance that one would list near the top. When I hit an animal and it's down I keep my eye on it and run as fast as I can towards it. If it starts to get up I start shooting again. I recall reading the experts years ago say "let them lay down and stiffen up" I don't do that. | ||
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| One of Us |
I think the shot went above the lungs and below the spine. Because a whitetail is a light target for a Nosler P in that caliber, it probably did not open up much. | |||
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| <MontanaMarine> |
It's not a matter of "what happened???" It is a matter of what didn't happen: The bullet failed to: There are no magic bullets or calibers. A hunter must: MM | ||
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| one of us |
The pictures in the earlier topic "Nosler Bullet performance" illustrate 250 grain .338 Partition bullets recovered from Sitka blacktails. Muzzle velocity was a sedate 2550 fps. While I would have expected those 250 Partitions to have completely penetrated a deer (and am darned curious why they didn't), the pictures clearly illustrate that, at 2550 MV, they were expanding on deer-size targets. Sooooo, lack of expansion of a 225 Partition at 2850 MV on a deer 75 yards away is not even a question. That 225 was going faster at 75 yards that the aforementioned 250's were at the muzzle. And, that soft Partition nose should expand readily. Likely causes are an unseen twig in the way or the bullet striking the no-vitals area under the spine. | |||
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Moderator |
quote: Ray, you done stole my thunder I can't see anything wrong with using a 338 or larger on deer, or using partitions, or bullets of similar construction. I will say they have exactly the same limitations of the small bores, and that is, without proper shot placement, they don't work real good! Now fess up, you were sitting there for 1/2 saying, I shot it with a 338 and it walked off, couldn't a happened, I shot it with a 338 and it walked off, couldn't a happened... And one last things, sometimes critters just don't take kindly to up and dying easily, even when we do everything right. | |||
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| one of us |
I shot a Bull Moose last year @100yds W/250g Nosler Partition .338WM (2680fps) The bullet entered on the right side just behind the shoulder, it entered between two ribs and broke 1 rib on the way out the other side. The entrance hole was aprox. 1in. & exit hole aprox. 2in. He took about three steps and became real wobbly and tipped over!! There was foamy,lung Goo hanging out of BOTH HOLES! (he must have coughed)NOSLER PARTITIONS OPEN UP WHEN THEY HIT SOMETHING! Ya musta missed or grazed the top of his back! Have fun & Good luck! | |||
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