I'm going to central Idaho to hunt elk this fall. We take mules and pack in 20 miles from the trailhead and will stay for most of two weeks. Problem is- where we are going is fairly flat. Everything looks the same. What gps should I be shopping for, and do you think it would be beneficial or a monumental waste of time. I've been thinking about gettin one for awhile but don't really know what I want. I'd like to be able to enter in specific locations like where camp is, where a particular meeting place is, or where a downed game was left so i can find it later. Any ideas?

I don't use a GPS. Only time I did was in the service, and then, basically only to "play" with. While I agree they do have some value (probably great value), they can get you into a heap of trouble by relying on them too much.

The only advice I can give if you chose to use a GPS, is to only use it as an aid. First and foremost is learning to use a compass and a topo map. Terrain association is great tool for self location, and even better is to do a resection by using your compass and a pencil. Get the map of your hunting area well in advance of your hunt. Study the map. Study it some more. And some more...you get the point. Try to become as familiar as possible with the area before you even get there. Once you get there, practice using the map. They do work! And they work without batteries! Don't be afraid to write on your map either...helps keep the information from getting "lost."

Going back and re-reading your post, I see you will be in a fairly flat area. The methods above do work there too, but with more effort. If there are prominant land features visible and on the map, you can still do the resection technique. Flat areas are harder to "work" with. I can see the "value" of a GPS in the flats, but still, don't rely too much on them!

[ 03-14-2003, 02:13: Message edited by: Trapdoor ]

The regular Garmin ETrek will serve you fine and do everything that you need. Just get one at least a few weeks before you go so that you can practice with it. Get the yellow one at Walmart for $120.

Sure enough before we are done here they will run the bill up to $300 on you. I have stuff like that and I can't find the directions either and I no longer have a nine year old here to program that stuff for me.

I agree with Trapdoor.
I would rather have a 10$ topo map and a 30$ compass than a 300$ electronic gps.
Just my 2 sense.

I have used GPS in the mountains and they work great, they are extremely accurate and can and will save you alot of time going to places you have picked out on topo maps or finding your camp in any any weather. The only down side is they need a clear view of the sky to get a fix, meaning they will not work well in thick forests. They are hard on batteries which means you will not want to leave it powered all the time. I like compasses and you should still have one with you once you have walked around for several hours a compass will not point the direction and distance back to camp or your car, which the GPS will.

I bought a Garmin Etrex Summit and it works awesome! Cost me $200. Check EBAY there are all sorts of deals there. Today's models are very accurate and reliable. I hunted a unit last year in Colorado that was riddled with unmarked and unfenced private land. You had to constantly plot on the map where you were as to not trespass. I carried a compass as a back up, but my GPS was so accurate i used it in the dark testing it out and it got me right to the truck within a few feet. Only time it did not work was in a heavy rainstorm with low clouds. It is nice to pull up your points and check distances etc. I will never hunt without one again!!!!!!!!!!

I have an old Garmin. I have used it fishing. I was glad I had it in Canada when there were so many islands that I did not have confidence that I could find my way back to camp.

I think it is an excellent idea anywhere.

Jerry

Last year I did a pack trip in the Adirondacks, 12 miles in to camp on horseback. Used a Garmin 12. Made life easy, even in a snowstorm.

I always carry a map and compass as a back-up, but I also carry extra batteries. GPS are great for what they are, an aid to navigation. As is a compass.

Rob

I use a Garmin XL12, more user friendly than the Etrex and easier to read. The GPS is a great tool, but I also carry a map and a compass, I like to know where I am at all times. Also agree with Trapdoor don't rely on it 100%, they maybe realiable the majority of the time but they are still electronic and could fail. I like to compare my dead reckoning with the GPS reading, see how close I can get, also its gives you a confidence level for your GPS

Carverelli, in my experience at play and on the job a GPS is a great tool in the mountains. I use them and depend on them on a weekly basis, and I work in the Rockies in north-central BC. In my opinion GPS brands start and stop with Garmin. The extrex models are easy to use, the Garmin GPS12 is similar in price and is better for serious use although it takes a bit of extra time to get comfortable with. For the record, I also always have a good map and compass in the pack, and know how to use them. The garmins are great, but you're only a bad fall or dead batteries away from being lost with them. Hope this helps.

I used a garmin 12 XL for a few years and it is a great unit. I have since picked up a garmin rhino 120 and it is a real tool, gps & radio combined. There are many models available and you will have to decide what features you want. You can get units that will have a base road and city location maps to units that you connect to a computer and download city, topo and marine maps to. All depends on your uses. They are handy when fishing from a boat and it gets dark.
As mentioned earlier, a gps is an aid, but it can fail. I always carry a topo map marked with gps coordinates and a good compass incase the unit breaks or the gps system is turned off for whatever reason. If you get one, be sure to spend enough time with the unit so you know it inside & out.
I have found that the energizer lithium batteries give better life than alkalines and work well when cold.

GPS are great. I carry one on all my horse rides. Always know the direct route back to camp/truck. I've marked game with them. I hate walking around a mountain trying to remember where the animal was I shot when I come back with the horses to pack it out.

I've used the Garmin Etrex Summit and upload my routes to my computer when I get home. It will print out exactly where I rode. So I can review exactly what peak I was standing on or what saddle I crossed. It also fun to know how many miles I traveled that day or the elevation that I am at. It tells me my current speed, my average speed and my max speed. Not important to survival, just fun. Especially when riding a horse, bike or skiing.

Look at the new Garmin Rino products. It is a combined GPS and FRS radio. If you hunt with a buddy and he has one, it will pin point the other person on your gps so you know where they are when you are talking on the radios. They are just a little more money. But heck, I hate carrying two gadgets when I can carry one and not have to worry about batteries for two gadgets. And I've gotten into the habit of carrying a gps and a radio and compass and . . . .

Learn to use it before you go. Batteries last about 12 hours. Take spares. Look into the add on antennas. They can dramatically improve your sattelite reception. Especially in the trees and where you might be in steeper canyons or shadowed from the sattelite signals. I velcro the antenna on my hat, put the GPS in my shirt pocket. That way your body doesn't block the signal.

They are a great tool and lots of fun.

Trapdoor has got it right.

I use a GPS unit for work pretty much everyday and at first it was just a toy but once you get the hang of it they can be invaluable. I still always use a map as well. I mark all of my way points onto the topo maps and try to triangulate off other points to double check the GPS. It has been off by over a kilometer before. They take some doing though to figure out how to work them but once you get the hang of it it's not a problem.

As Savage99 says the Garmin Etrex is a good machine. Works well in fairly thick cover and picks up sattelites fast. I really like the Garmin GPS II plus. Its a little more accurate and is easier to work and find functions. It also has a data base of every town in North America in it if that floats your boat. (Not maps just way points of the towns)

I've used Magellan units too and thought they were garbage.

Gentlemen,

I prefer the Magellan GPS 315. I use it all the time, both working as a forest engineer, and when I'm recreating in the outdoors. As a tool, in conjunction with a quality map and a quality compass, they are wonderful. A GPS will never replace map reading and navigation skills, but they can certainly help. Be sure to bring extra batteries.

One thing that might be worth doing is signing up for an orienteering course through a local community college or hiking club. Nothing will replace practice.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Gentlemen, thank you for the help. Sounds like the Garmins are the way to go. I like the idea of a frs radio coupled w/ the gps. I'm not a complete idiot so maybe I can learn how to read and use one of these things to my advantage. Topography maps are good to to help read the terrain, but as said earlier the gps should be a valuable companion. I always carry a AA maglit w/ spare batteries and a decent map of the area, not to mention a lighter,matches, and a good compass. Landmarks are my usual way of orientating myself in an area, and I just make sure I'm back at camp before dark. But, as most of you know the last hour of daylight can be the most productive hunting. The place I'm going has a lot of meadows that could produce a nice bull late in the day. I would like to be more confindent in finding my way back to camp. Staying on a trail would be the easiest, but there aren't always trails everywhere.
Again, thanks for the advice. I'll start shopping.

I use an E-trex & really like it for the money. I also carry a compass & a map. The GPS is great for marking downed game & the location of your vehicle. I mark the camp/truck & then turn it off & go to my compass. Compass & map skills are great, but take the GPS & spare batts.

I've used a Garmin GPS since they first came out many years ago. I have a Garmin 12 which is about 4 years old now and still serves me well. Garmis's customer service is great!!! If I were to buy a new GPS, they(Garmin) just came out with a new handheld that is WAAS enabled. I would definitely make sure that whatever I bought had that feature. WAAS gives greater accuracy, actually better than differential GPS. Do a little internet search on GPS and differential or check out Garmin's site http://www.garmin.com Any other questions, don't be afraid to email or PM me. The unit I'm talking about is the GPS72. Here's a link http://www.garmin.com/products/gps72/

bowhuntr

[ 03-14-2003, 08:18: Message edited by: bowhuntrrl ]

I doubt that you would need on in central Idaho, but I don't suppose it would hurt anything...I have never used one nor anything else like maps or compass...I have a since about where I am until I get to Dallas, then it's hopeless...

I was astonished in Tanzania this year when I noticed some of the game scouts had GPS..that has me thinking I might just get one...If they need them and they really liked them, then I know damn well this white bread needs one....

I love Garmin and want to upgrade from my GPS III+ to the new Garmin GPS V. If you're interested, I'd be willing to sell my GPS III+, accessories along with the Mapsource Roads & Recreation and Topo CDs all for $250. I take excellent care of my equipment so the unit, accessories and CDs are like new. The III+ is the most versatile of the units and has 36 hour battery life to boot. If anyone's interested, send me a PM or e-mail.

As was said before a gps is no substitute for a map and compass. The smartest thing to do is use your gps in conjunction with a map. In thick timber the gps can be worthless. I've seen gps's claim north is one direction,while two compasses claimed north was in another direction and the compas was right. Magellan was popular in the beginning,but Garmin has pretty much dominated the market lately. At one time garmin was the only gps endorsed by the FAA.

RMK, I just can't imagine a GPS unit giving you a bearing 180 degrees off. That is impossible. You were probably looking at it wrong. If you are in an area with a clear view of the sky, they are extremely accurate. If you are in timber or down in a canyon where you can't pick up many satellites, the accuracy may not be as good, but still there is no way it would give you a reading that far off. One possibility is you may not have been moving when you looked at your GPS. A GPS can't give you a direction unless you are moving, and the faster you are moving the more accurate it will be(up to a point.) That is why, like you said, you need to use GPS in conjunction with a map and compass. The thing is GPS can tell you what direction to go to get back to your camp, your truck, or your dead elk. A compass can't do that. Another thing to remember is for the best accuracy, you need to have at least 4 satellites. With three satellites it will give you a position and you can navigate with it, but the accuracy won't be perfect. But even with only 3 satellites, the direction may be 3 or 4 degrees off, at the most.

RMK, after writing this I re- read your post and I see you didn't say it was 180 degrees off. But still, a GPS will give you the same bearing as a compass, but you do have to be moving for the GPS to give you a reading. If you are in the "Go To" mode, it will give you the bearing to whatever point you are trying to navigate to. You then can turn the GPS off and use your compass to follow that bearing.

[ 03-14-2003, 10:55: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]

Go with the map, compass and gps and practice, practice and practice some more - for a fun way to practice gps usage, try this link: web page - lots of fun also. KMule

I got a gps for my birthday and it is fun playing with it but I stay away from using it, since I believe that using so many machines turns men soft.
Using a gps plays gainst our natural instict and against our aquired capabilities. I would rather tend to rely on them than on a battery operated gadget.
If I hunted in flat, vast, unknown land I would not hesitate to carry it with me, though.
Just my thoughts,
Montero

Trapdoor is 100% correct. A GPS is no substitute for a map and compass AND THE SKILL TO USE THEM.

I used a Magellan in the Gulf first time around and it was very useful in the flat. I now own a much smaller Germin E-Trex - the yellow entry level one and it does it all.

I don't know about turning men soft as Captain Bligh had no qualms about using navigational instruments like a sextant and compass, and that guy was no softie. He proved it later by dead-reckoning something like 3600 miles across open ocean.

But give me softness and a GPS over stumbling around in the morning dark shining a light and stinking up the place trying to find that perfect place you scouted the day before.

(Just jerking your chain Montero...)

I'm a relative newcomer to GPS, but in the dark is where they "shine".

But I always have a compass with me, period.

I watched a guy walk us back to his downed elk a few years ago with his GPS. He was from Florida hunting in northeast New Mexico, so he didn't know the country. He got us within 100 yards, and then the immediate vicinity of the kill started looking familiar. We walked right to the bull.

I will probably buy one to take with me next year to the NWTs.

A flat spot in Central Idaho? This I got to see!

That said, the biggest problem we had with a Garmin last year was getting good readings. Steep inclines and closed canopes caused us to get very un-reliable readings several time (especially the elevation).

Works great on the road, but, then, who needs it there? FWIW, Dutch.

I have had a loran since 1985 and a Garmin GPS 12 since 1995. I use this stuff all the time for coastal sailing. On the water it's very hard to tell where you are. Of course we did it with ded reconing before that and one must still have the charts (maps) and of course a compass.

I carry the GPS in the field when I am in a strange area. It will find your starting point or any other waypoint you have entered with great accuracy.

If for instance you have wandered around and need to head back the gps will give you the exact heading and distance. Then you use your compass until you think you need the GPS again for a check.

The GPS's will not get a signal with a heavy canopy overhead, if it's snowing, cloudy or even overcast the signal will be compromised as it will in a very deep valley. In other words they won't get a signal all of the time in the woods.

Last fall I hunted a small state forest in CT. This is a tiny parcel surrounded with homes. There was deep snow and it was very slippery. You might think CT is patty cake and it might be but when your on a very steep ledge just able to hold on it's suddenly difficult. I got wedged against the private property and the ledge. I know some smarty will say I should have planned it all out with a topo. I turned the gps on and it gave me the heading and distance out. It saved me a lot of trouble. Due to the clutter overhead in the trees I had to find a clearing to get the signal.

The comment above on a gps giving the wrong heading could have been from a very weak signal that came in and out. Of course the wrong way point could have been entered.

I like FSR radios sometimes. I would not combine the two.

Ray,

The easiest way to learn how to use a gps is to give one to some nine year old when he is over the house. In ten minutes he will have you outside and be showing you how neat it is. Then get one for yourself.

[ 03-14-2003, 18:48: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

as far as it giving a false North, you need to calibrate it for either magnetic North like a compass, or true North like a map. Since i am using a map in conjunction, mine is set for true North which will show slightly a different direction than a compass. That could have been the problem.

Maps and compasses are great when you can see but they are not much use in the dark in black timber, in thick fog, or in a blizzard. I have used the Garmin to find the duck blind and my antelope 'spot' several times when the fog was so thick I couldn't see 5'. A spare set of batteries is also a must.
C.G.B.

I've been using GPS's for the last 5 years. I started with Magellan. Went through 2 of those. Then I got a Garmin 12. Thought I died and went to heaven, until I just got 2 Garmin Rhino 120's. These things are awesome, and the price is great too. This is the best place I found to get them.

Select Zone

I only wish they would had these when I was 16. I probably would have never graduated with all school skipping and hunting.

C'mon Dutch there are several flat spots in central Idaho, it's just that all six of them have tents pitched on them.

Dutch, look at a topo map of central Idaho. Find Big Creek. Somewhere between there and Chamberlain looks fairly flat ot me. About 20 sq miles of it. Once you go further north towards the Salmon River breaks it changes dramatically.
Dad told me a story of a couple years ago. It started to snow pretty bad, and he lost his direction completly. don't even think he had his compass. Figurd it might make him soft as another poster suggested. Anyway he didn't know which way camp was, where he came from, or the nearest trail. Turned out he let his mule have his head(let him go where he wanted) and in a few minutes he was right on his backtrail headed back to camp. Perfect place for a gps or even a compass!!

I've used GPS in the mountains, the ocean, and lakes.

I have a story about how valuable they can be.

The first year we used one we were on a outfitted hunt in north eastern B.C. We had crossed the Prophet river to hunt a mountain that the elk had been holding on. We tied up the horses and were about head off when I said "hold on so I can put a fix on the horses". Being the yougest hunter I was told why the hell would we have to that. The horses are tied to a tree and there is no way we could lose them is this obvious spot.

To make a long story short, it was dark when we got back to the area of the horses and our flash lights showed us nothing but more forest. My GPS told me we were on top of the horses but we still could not see them. We started to argue about there where abouts and even considered the fact that the unit was not doing the job. Just before panic set in the horses let us Know that they were about 50 yds awy.

That was the old Magellan 2000 unit. It did it's job then but it's useless now. Sometimes it takes a hour in open country to get a fix. Time to buy a new model.

A few years ago while in a Montana Wilderness Elk camp, a Texan had one. He showed it off every day and was quite proud of it. Of course, if you knew how the drainages went and where the trails were it was unnecessary. Kinda like having a hand held video game along if you know what i mean. Anyway he came into camp one night looking rather dejected and said. I lost my GPS. I couldn't help myself. I said, "It's not lost...it knows where it is!"
The devil makes me do things!
Rich Elliott

Does anyone have any exp. with a Garmin E-Trex Legend?

I had some hunters in camp here in Idaho, friends of mine and one of them had a GPS and about noon we tied the horses stopped to eat lunch on a high spot. I asked him to tell me where we were, he checked out everything and slowly said well according to this thing we are on that high point over there on the other side of this canyon!!!

I packed our stuff and said, Maybe, you better stick close to me for the rest of this hunt!~

Carvelli, you're right about the Chamberlain, of course. Used to be poor hunting, but after the fires, should be much better now.

Lab, I don't know which one my father-in-law bought, to save my life. It does give elevation. Problem is, it gives elevation whether it is correct or not. In one instance, while dropping off a ridge to camp, it told us we were 1,000 feet higher than we actually were. Long story short, we ended up hiking those 1,000 feet back up.

What GPS's are exceptional for is for drawing horse trails and unmarked logging trails onto your own map. I'll buy one for that reason alone. There's nothing worse than coming out on a road, and then realizing the Forest Circus hasn't drawn it on the map! FWIW, Dutch.

thmpr,
I have had two Garmins this year. My first one is a Camo unit, The second is a Legend.
I started using mine to help me trap sage hens. I was working trapping grouse and putting radios on them. During hunting season I used my Camo unit all the time. One time I was hunting deer and found a group of deer about 2 miles out and across a canyon. I "projected" a way point to the deer and used the GPSR to guide me to them from a different area. I also used it during my elk hunt. A friend of mine shot a elk on a ridge across a canyon. I projected a way point to the spot and a storm moved in hard. I followed the GPSR right to the medow I last saw the elk in.
Then I guided us out in the middle of the night in the worst storm of the year. we got 18"of snow that night.
The Legend I have now is a lot better unit. I like having maps IN the GPSR. The legend now has 10,000 track points and 1000 way points.
Both units are very accurate but you have to remember that they are not precise, they can be off a little.
RAY, A lot of things can affect how far off a GPSR can be. Older units only hook up with a mamimum of 6 satellites. The newer ones can recieve 12. The Number of satellites actually hooked up at the time of reading can throw off a reading.
For the most part a GPSR is very valuable in many aspects of hunting. Ron