Re:"the best 7mm" thread.Now we hear all the time about how the 280 Rem can "equal" the 7mm Rem Mag in velocity.Now...comparing like case capacities/bore sizes(or close enough) we have the following comparisons.Why is the 270 Win not considered the "equal" of the 270 Weatherby? Why is the 25-06 not considered the "equal" of the 257 Weatherby? Why is the 30-06 not considered the "equal" of the 308 Norma? But yet we hear over and over about how the 280 is the "equal" of the 7mm Rem Mag.Please explain this.Maybe "equal" means different things to different people,or maybe there really is such a thing as "more equal".Any thoughts on this phenomenom?Don't get me wrong,I like the 280, I don't have one but I may someday. A shooting buddy has one and loves it.

It's called the 'Bullshit phenomenom'

The 280 Rem. is not the equal to the 7mm Rem. Mag.

Daryl

Its a cyberspace "wannabe" thing. Kinda like the zit head that puts a set of hot pipes on his VW and wants you to think he has a Indy race car. You see it an awful lot in the AI section.
I have 7-08's, .280's,and 7mags. I like them all and each fits its own niche. But, in short, a .223 will not match a 22-250; a .257 will not match a 25-06; a .280 will not match a 7mag nor will a .308 match a 30-06.
It may have gotten its start when chronies got cheap enough for us common folks to own one. We found commerical ammo was pretty watered down compared to the numbers published by the companies. So, we found that we could HANDLOAD a .280 to near the velocities of a factory round of 7mag, etc.
But, the fact remains, we cannot HANDLOAD a .280 to outdo a HANDLOADED 7mag.

Good topic. Good question. And Daryl...great answer. You said a mouthful, my friend.

RSY

Daryl, you are correct. Wishful thinking be stuffed, case capacity STILL counts for something. Load both cartridges to their full potential, and the average 7mm Rem. Mag. still beats the average .280 Remington across the board by 200 fps.

AD

Actually, the .270 Weatherby and the 7mm rem mag are neck and neck.

Can't say it any better than Daryl D. B.S.P.
You can crunch numbers and make them say what ever you want here, and on paper, but that doesn't equate to much in the feild when the lead hits the air.The 280Rem is not a 7mmRem!
X-Ring

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Sinner, saved by God's unfailing grace!

Interesting topic.
I am not sure what you mean by "equal" but It is obvious that the external flight ballistics are not. To me however, the 280-270 and the 7mm mag all kill virtualy the same. I have never seen difference, and thats why I no longer own a 7mag.

Usually those comparisons involve a .280 with a 26" barrel and a 7mm RemMag with a 24" barrel. This shrinks the difference in performance of the two to around 100 fps or so. In equal barrels the 280 can never equal the 7mm RemMag.

I would not have a 7mm RemMag with less than a 26" barrel myself, and would probably go 28".

JMO, MM

The statement has some validity, If one compares 7 Mag. factory ammo to the 280 or 284 that has been handloaded and in the case of early 284 Silvertip ammo, then the chronograph shows the old 284 stuff beat it and the handloads beat it. Thats how a lot of that stuff got started. Also the use of short barrels will kill the difference in the belted boys.

In my opinnion the only way a 7 Mag shows any significant advantage over a 280 or 270 is with the 175 gr. bullet in a hot handload, at least for all practical hunting.
I think the same applies to the 300 and the 30-06, I see no advantage in killing power in the lighter bullets. I do see a wider difference in the 300 with 200 and 220 gr. bullets..

this same fact would apply to the 308 compared to the 30-06 and so on down the line.

To really put all you 7 Mag lovers in shock I see little difference in killing power between the 308, 7x57 270,30-06, 7Mag, and only perhaps a little with the 300's. the advantage is in trajectory, but if one does not shoot beyond 300 yds. it really doesn't matter...

Guess where I think all the BS lies!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Between the 270,280 and 7MM RM. I really don't see any significant gain in down range performance in any of them using hand loads. So why put up with the extra recoil, muzzle blast and powder use of the 7MM RM for no real gain?

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From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

The best 7mm. Hmm, lets see, power wise, that would be the 7.21 Firebird.

[This message has been edited by Ben Rapp (edited 04-14-2002).]

Smallfry, now you open up another can of worms: IS a 7mag NEEDED over a 270/280 for hunting purposes.

beemanbeme...
The 7mag is obviously very popular, whether people "need it" over a 270/280 doesnt seem to matter much... its more on the order of "they want it". For me, the 7mag has no real advantage over the 270/280, and I say that because I not only see that they kill about the same, but I also dont oftan make shots at 500+ yards (actually never have on big game). Aside form that... my 7mag has long been replaced by a 300mag. I think Ray makes a very valid point with the 175 grainers, however, when you consider say... an elk I doubt I would be shooting one with a 7mag,270,280 at over 300 yards. In this case even the 280 would provide enough velocity. I would however be more apt to pick a barns X in 140-150 weight range which I have personaly seen out penetrate a nolsler 175 on elk. Needless to say the 7 mags will never go away... they are very good cartridges, just not for me.
take care

Read and save what Ray Atkinson wrote. And add to that another one of his statements "at some range every (.300 mag) becomes a 30/06"

At normal ranges the 280 will give better bullet performance (Harald's site).

So the only reason for a "magnum" in small bores is long range shooting. If that's what you do then it will make a small difference.

Atkinson is also right on that there is no difference in killing power over the class of cartridge mentioned at reasonable ranges.

Always go up in caliber. That's the sure way to improve effect. Of course I forgot to mention the recoil. "ouch".

The .280 Rem was the #1 choice for custom rifles about 10 years ago. Not a bad choice. But the 30/06 always makes more sense.

Let me add that in my bullet testing I found that heavier bullets in the same caliber expanded to larger diameter than shorter bullets! Of course the velocity has to be high enough. Makes sense.

[This message has been edited by Don Martin29 (edited 04-14-2002).]

I look at the belted Mags(6.5-338) when the ranges are going to be long (400yds+) This is where the flatter trajectory comes into play. So it really comes down to where, what and how you hunt. I like a 7Mag stoked with 140-150gr handloads for hunting deer or antelope in open country, this combo has paid off for many. If you need 175s, you are better off with a 300Win with 180s or 200s. sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 04-15-2002).]

sure-shot has it nailed. It depends on how one views his 7mm Rem Mag.You can look at it as a heavy bullet(160-175)rifle for all big game or as a "supercharged 270/280" with 130-150 gr bullets.In the case of larger game where one feels more than 150 grs is in order,you should step up to a .30 cal magnum,I do.Mine is a deer rifle only with 140's at 3300.A moose/elk rifle it will never be.I take a 30-06 for backup to my 300 Win Mag.I came into my own 7 Mag quite by accident,I was buying a "rifle",that just happened to be chambered for the 7 Rem Mag.So I tried it out and was impressed.It's true that a lot of ballistically challenged shooters carry a 7Mag because they have the impression that it's a laser beam killin' machine,which it's not.When viewed as a slightly faster 270/280 it's a great cartridge.Reminds me of a conversation I had with a fellow a couple years ago regarding the 7mm Rem Mag and the 7mmSTW.A lot of guys knock the STW(they've never had one) saying it's hardly faster than the 7mm Rem to make a difference,BUT, when asked if a "super new powder" was introduced that would add 300+ fps to their 7 Rem Mag,would they use it? The answer was of course a very loud YES.Well, that "super new powder" is in the the form of an 7STW reamer.
PS: I also own a 270 Win and have taken more deer with it than any other cartridge up to the present.Great cartridge. I like Ray's comments on the 30-30,everyone should have at least one.Make mine a 336 Marlin with straight grip and half magazine......whish I could find one.

[This message has been edited by rembo (edited 04-14-2002).]

I have a bunch of good choices in my safe and find reasons to get more. I could use about any of them for deer and several for elk but choose to use one over the other. The differences are small but the jump between each cartridge over several jumps add up! I have a .280 I've never shot. I don't need it, I won it in a raffle. I havn't used my '06 in years and the only time the .308 is out is to bounce around in the jeep. I dislike the .270 , no reason really. It is a good deer rifle but I feel it is way over rated. The 7mm RM is a little over rated to but I got one as a gift and love it! There isn't much that can't be taken with it and its a beutiful piece of work. I don't see the point in a 300 Mag anything but I don't have one either. If the 7mm RM isn't enough I use my .338 WM and if the 7mm RM is to much I really enjoy using a .257 Roberts. I't doesn't really make a lot of sense to draw lines but we all do. True the .270 outperforms a .257 Roberts but it isn't really that important to me. As long as people use a gun they can take game with without cripples then its just something to argue over. We all WANT things we don't have, but don't need the things we want. How many of us have a bunch of rifles that overlap in performance and usefulness? Who could make due with a .22LR and a mid size whatever for about everything? We all could but we don't. I like picking by mood, expectation, challenge, or whatever. This fall I'm going after elk with a bow for the first time since high school. I know the .338 is ballistically superior but I bet I'll still have fun!

Ya and whats with saying these new Short Mags will equal or beat the .300 Win Mag?

I think Ray pretty much summed it up--pretty much all the calibers he mentioned have been in evidence on our hunts---all have really done well when the hunter did. Chuck