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Keith, Thank you. Canuck | |||
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For me as a non-Northamerican it has been much more convenient to go hunting and take my guns to Canada than to the US. I just present them at customs, pay my 50 bucks Canadian and that�s it. Treatment from police and customs officers has always been first class. If I want to go to the US, I have to apply to the BATF 2 months ahead with a lot of paper work. What if my application is rejected? Cancel the pre-paid hunting trip? When I lived in the US and moved back to my home country, I had to apply for an export license to take my property with me. Now which place is more burocratic? Best regards, Dirk [ 01-13-2003, 19:49: Message edited by: DUK ] | |||
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quote:bowhuntrrl, I know where you are coming from but I have a different proposal. Let's do just the opposite. Let's flood Canada with hunters & fisherfolk. Then the local constabulary might see there is a lot of money flowing into their region and look at things differently. Let's support our northern brothers and not cut our noses off to spite our faces. It seems like the anti's are at work here. They want to restrict guns and hunting in Canada. If we boycott them then the anti's have won. If we flood Canada with sportsmen because of their actions then we have won and have reversed the tables on them. Let's stand in solidarity. [ 01-13-2003, 20:06: Message edited by: WyoJoe ] | |||
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I've hunted and fished in Canada many times, and I've never had a problem carrying firearms across the border. Most of the times I've had no problems coming back into the USA either. I went caribou hunting in Quebec in Sept. 2001, and it was one of the easiest border crossings I've ever had. Canada's new gun laws suck for Canadians, but they are better than most other countries for aliens. In the USA, we're getting our gun rights taken away systematically. If you boycott Canada, you are only hurting the hunting/shooting fraternity. | |||
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There are some very good posts here, and a few not so good. Thank you to our supporters. The government in Canada works a little differant then in the US. We do not have equal representation in Governement for each area of the country. Due to the way the country was founded, the majority of power lies in central Canada (Ontario and Quebec). To get the constitution accepted by all areas they had to put a clause in there that no matter how the population base changes in the future, if another area of the country gets another Member of Parliament (MP), they will get one more as well. This effectively locks the power base of this country into Ottawa (the Ontario/Quebec border) for all time. Now, it's easy to say "Revolt", and lord knows I do it often enough, but even in the US, talk is cheap (perhaps especially, I've seen Jerry Springer{little humour there}). The government is catering to it's main demographic, which is the urbanites in Toronto and Montreal. In Toronto they have Jamaicans shooting each other and a few bystanders up quite often, and in Montreal it's the bike gangs fighting over the drug trade. The government can't say anything bad about Jamaicans (it's not politically correct, or politically astute) so the blame goes on guns. The only exposure to firearms these people have is gang violence, so they pretty much see it as a simple "no guns, no gun violence" issue. It's not true, but that is the way they look at it. Because these are a LARGE block of voters, in the most politically powerful areas of the country, the liberal government kow-tows to them and their fears. Even though the guiding/hunting industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, it's not even on their radar. Politically, the only hope hunters/shooters/outfitters have is the Alliance party, which pretty much dies at the eastern Manitoba border. Our other "right wing" party is the Progressive Conservatives, and all they are is Liberals with a blue tie (traditionally, the Liberals use red (appropriate) as their party color, and the PC's use blue). So yes, the system sucks, but blaming the firearms community in Canada, and begrudging them your support, is simply shooting your own cause in the foot. You don't think if the Liberals make this fly up here they won't be pointing at what a fine example it would be in the US? Of course they will. Get your head out of your behind and look around. One way or another WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. - Dan | |||
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I would like to see a few things happen first off if you Yanks are complaining about Canada. 1) No more Americans coming up here to go fishing(the muddholes you call lakes will have to do). 2) Close border(if you guys want to goto Alaska you will have to fly or swim). 3) No more lumber for you to build houses. 4) No more oil or natural gas(have a nice winter). ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} 5) No more water. 6) No more Canadian Beer for you either(we all know that is why you guys come up here anyways). ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} All kidding aside, we need support up here. This just isn't a Canadian thing, the United Nations sees small arms EVERYWHERE as a threat. SOOOOO guess what? That means you guys too!!!! We may be a few decades ahead but your Grandchildren will also possible see a society without firearm's ownership too. So instead of crying and whining why don't you guys down there start writing letters to the Canadian government expressing your disdain for the gun laws and harrassment you have received in the past, if any. | |||
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Canuck, There is no way I'd spend even $1 to get a temporary FAC for any of my guns; the Ottawa gov't would surely see that as a sign of support for their program. Back when Klinton was in office, there was genuine concern that Ottawa would share the registration data with our ATF Gestapo. Registration is anathema here in the States, and no true believer in our gun rights would be for it. No, I'll just wait until this all shakes out, whether the law is repealed, modified, or the western Canadian provinces secede. George | |||
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Keith is right. I hunted in Canada last year and had ZERO problem getting my gun in or out. To tell the truth, it was more of an inconvenience for me to get the customs paperwork filled out here to bring them back in than to pay the $35 USD to the canadian customs guy. If that's where the game is, I got no problem following their rules to hunt there. The natural solution to the problem that originated this thread is to set up camps that are so inaccessible to provincial officials that they will never know how you are storing your weapons to begin with. You will have a better hunt by following this rule anyway!!!!! For example, I had no worries that some guy was going to jump out of the woods and write me a ticket for improper storage last year when our camp was a full days snowmobile ride northeast of Haines Junction in The Yukon. Best Regards. | |||
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Canadian gun laws are what we would have here if California and New York made up 60% of the population. The tiny little strip of Canada on the New York to New Hampshire border is highly urbanized and pretty much determines what happens politically in Canada. In no way does this segment represent the population living in the rest of the country. | |||
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Truth be known George, I think the FAC (now PAL) is a good idea. It has been a requirement for obtaining a firearm in this country for a long time. It requires that the applicant complete a firearms safety course, background check, and character references (including your spouse). Once these things are taken care of your off to the races. I can now buy a firearm anywhere in the country with this licence, including through the mail (delivered to my door). When you come to this country you are a guest and you are expected to abide by certain rules and these include filling out paperwork to bring a firearm into this country and paying the administration fee that goes along with it. When I travel with firearms to your country I'm expected to do the same thing (much more difficult as has already been mentioned). If you think that you are above this, then by all means stay out. I really have trouble with what you are saying, especially when you travel with firearms to other countries that also require extensive paperwork. chuck | ||
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If you want to stay home, by all means do so, but remember, you are aiding the anti's, and hurting the outfitters. If you want to stay home, or are just POed, write to a Canadian Newspaper, letter to the editor. We can use all the help we can get. Most of the major ones are online, so an email would help. Here's a few, and TV too: [URL=http://thestar.com/ http://www.nationalpost.com/ http://toronto.globaltv.com/ http://www.ctv.ca/ http://cbc.ca/newsworld/ http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/menu-e.html http://www.canoe.ca/ [ 01-15-2003, 16:26: Message edited by: John Y Cannuck ] | |||
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quote:Where's the problem? | |||
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quote:We should have invaded when we had the chance a couple hundred years ago. | |||
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quote:Oh boy. And we wonder why things are the way they are. | |||
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k-king actually u tried an invasion then but the beaurocrats got in an argument over who was to pay for lunch and forgot to go.Mark Also, what do you Americans think happens to the forms you fill out at your ffl. They get sent to BATF for filing,so in fact your firearms are registered to you upon purchase. The difference is in private sales. When the gungrabbers want your guns they'll go to BATF records get your name and address and here they come. Don't kid yourselves, when urban politicians think the time is right it will happen to you.Mark | |||
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Chuk, It is probably thanks to like minded individuals like yourself who made up the executive of the NFA that we have such regulations. These people thought licensing and required training was a good idea (I suspect they were hoping to cash in some way) in spite of the fact that all provinces had instituted hunter training years before. In 1978 the FAC was an unnecessary requirement which did nothing to combat illegal gun use. It was simply a means of identifying gun owners for a purpose which will no doubt become clear. You are also, no doubt, representative of the people who think that having the government regulate how I store guns in my own home (my castle under the BNA act)is a good idea. MY feeling is that no segment of the government has any business on my side of my property line unless I am causing injury. Ithink the FAC was a stupid idea because we got absolutely nothing in return. Requiring someone like myself, who had been a professional gunsmith for over 15 years at the time, to take a "safety course" was a stupid idea. The purpose of this was simply to reduce the number of potential firearms buyers. It was so successful in this that businesses have closed from lack of support. kuduking, I think the US did try to invade 200 years ago and failed miserably each time! Regards, Bill. | |||
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This thread has got a little out of hand. The way it openned was a issue about how the police are handling the new gun laws up here in Can. The issue was not the customs officers at the border. The way I see it our country will allways treat foreigners better than it's own people. Americans will never run into police in the guided hunting camps up here. They are usualy private or remote for the most part. You might run in to our game wardens but unless there is a wildlife infraction I hear very little complaints. Of course there is a bad apple in .... KuduKing You did invade a couple of hundred years ago and we beat all the way back to the White house and burned it down! And thats without lazer guided musket balls. | |||
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Chuk, That's the difference between Canadians and Yanks: we're citizens, you are subjects. George | |||
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Last time America tried to invade Canada they lost. I have some good friends come up from Iowa every year for the last 28 years. They can get some good bag limits on birds and the birds haven't been that spooked yet(we like to spook em good before they hit the border. The price is right cause they are just working stiffs like us. The US buck goes along way up here. I am not happy about some of the posts i have read here and am particularly disappointed in the inhospitable attitude from some of the Western Canadian posts I have read. Alberta is Cowboy Country and we don't treat our neighbours in this manner..They will learn on their own or will hear from me when they ask for my opinion. My neighbour is always invited into my home(provoding he unloads his gun .. he-he) and I will take him to my best hunting hole..That will include Americans and the odd guy from B C providin he ain't gueer or a tree hugger..I do have some limits. | |||
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KuduKing - quote:Actually, you did. We kicked your ass... Look up the war of 1812. | |||
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Keith, I will add an amen to that. I have had trouble coming back to the states more than once and that was pre 9/11. | |||
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Strange - every time I've crossed the border, the U.S. Customs folks were polite and courteous. Every time I came back, the Canada Customs people acted like Gestapo. Maybe they're all trained to hate their own...come to think of it, you'd have to be a bit of a closet Nazi to work for Customs (Or the tax dept.!) in the first place... ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Kuduking wrote: "We should have invaded when we had the chance a couple hundred years ago." It must be nice to have modest, open-minded and well-educated neighbours in the South like these... This attitude might partially explain their popularity in some places. | |||
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I guess maybe the FAC is a bad idea if you have something to hide. My point was, what is the difference between my FAC and someone having to show your drivers licence to have that background check performed at the store. Bill, as for businesses shutting down because of it, I don't buy it, its a good excuse. I know businesses that are flourishing inspite of these new laws. I also am tired of people that think their lives are in a bubble and that the world revolves around them ( I don't need to be given a test to see if I can handle a car responsibly so everyone else doesn't eigther). If those of you in the US think that there isn't a paper trail attached to your firearms, think again. One last thing I was born in 76, the FAC, is all I have ever known. chuck | ||
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quote:Now here is the German lecturing the American about invading their neighbors! Oh sweet irony. Humorless as usual, and missing the whole point of the joke. We're not here to win popularity contests, and we really don't care what you think about us. We represent freedom and oppose totalitarianism. The fact that Americans are successful and envied, and that a huge proportion of the world's population wants to move here, is in no small part due to our social/political values and economic system, which we will defend. When a ruthless dictator kills his own people, makes chemical and conventional warfare on his neighbors, attempts to kill an American president, and seeks to dominate a strategic region with weapons of mass destruction, the German and his European allies sit on their hands. In the rare occasion that they take their hands off their butts, they wring them at the Americans. Fortunately for them, we have the guts to take on Saddam instead of paying his blackmail. And what does any of this have to do with hunting? Boilerroom's comments are comforting, but a hunt isn't very enjoyable if you are concerned about some inadvertent violation of an obscure gun law. As for the Canadians who have posted looking for a handout to help them with their own silly gun laws, you make your bed you lie in it. Those provinces that are fed up with the socialist dogma that is your central government, once you win your civil war, we'll be happy to consider you for statehood. Provided you agree to vote Republican. [ 01-14-2003, 19:17: Message edited by: KuduKing ] | |||
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Chuk, The FAC is not a bad idea if you have something to hide. It's a bad idea because it increases government intervention in our private lives for NO GOOD REASON! At the time of the introduction of the FAC there was not any gun crime problem in Canada. It required the establishment and maintenance of a growing bureaucracy with NO redeeming qualities. The establishment of the FAC in it's original form had a minor but still significant effect on businesses involved in the sale of firearms. Each subsequent change further affected those doing business and has been largely responsible for many closing their doors. Government intervention seldom makes for an improved business environment and it did not in this case. You don't buy this simply because you have no experience in the field prior to the early '90s. I'm DAMN tired of people half my age thinking I should modify my life style to satisfy their sense of order! Regards, Bill. PS My apologies. This thread has become seriously off topic for the Big Game hunting forum! | |||
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First off, I agree that this has gotten way out of hand but I would like to get a few things cleared up. I do not agree with the new gun laws here in Canada. I think the POL is rediculous, storage requirements for firearms are way out of hand (I argued this point just recently in a university class), registration is criminal, and the need to show an FAC to buy ammunition is outrageous. There needs to be some form of accountability in the sale of firearms and I think the FAC acomplishes this with a fair degree of lattitude. For example Bill I can buy a gun from you from afar and have it sent to my door via Canada Post. I have done this and I appreciate it as a left handed shooter (I can cover a lot of ground on the phone looking for the gun or action I am after). the FAC/PAL is not a perfect system but it could be much worse. I would appreciate it if our friends from the south would quit telling me and others here that we are sitting back on our laurels doing nothing about these things. It is an ignorant as well as arogant declaration. chuck | ||
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You know, the oiginal post stated that the majority of the fines had been levied at guys with loaded firearms who had beed drinking. Not defending the cops even being in the camps I think I would prefer that they be there to get any hunter out of the woods who had been drinking. I hate hunting with the thought that some yahoo is loaded with more that a firearm and could possible have his blurred vision and sights on my backside while I creep about in the bush. The attack on hunters is worldwide and we do need to form a common front of defense and more importantly, of honest information but there is also the case for safety and common sense. [ 01-14-2003, 23:04: Message edited by: Frank Martinez ] | |||
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quote:Here we go. Now the teetotalers and Prohibitionists are chiming in. NO alcohol in the hunting camps! For the record, the article said NOTHING about loaded guns and drinking. It said hunters IN CAMP had been drinking and their guns were not under lock and key. There was NO suggestion that anyone was stumbling around the woods drunk with a loaded rifle. So now according to you I can't have a cocktail in the evening while hunting. I spend several $$$$ once a year go on this hunt, to get away for a week or two from the insanity of work, the tyranny of marriage and interminable responsibility of child-raising. And I'm not "allowed" to have a couple of cold ones or a cognac by the fire until all of us lock up every gun in the cabin. While they are at it, why don't they come in and check that I've wiped my ass properly and washed my hands afterwards so my camp-mates don't get some ecoli-like infection? Africa, call your office, I'm booking. | |||
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Chuk, Do you know of a Wal-mart in Canada that still sells fire arms? Have you been to a Wal-mart in America? Checked out any hardware stores? Undoubtedly this whole system is cutting back on business for companies that do or would like to sell firearms. I asked at Canadian tire why they don't even carry shotguns anymore and they replied it was because it was too much of a pain in the back side to have someone on staff at all times of the day that could sell firearms and to keep track of the paper work. Too much of a chance for some door knob off the street to screw up and sell a shotgun to an undesirable. I myself do not see a whole lot wrong with licencing to purchase a firearm if thats what makes the Frenchies happy. I'd rather have nothing though at all. Registration is a major pain in the ass and completely Violates what I perceived to be my rights. Could some one please tell me what this country stands for??? Bill Leeper, where did all the good ol boy Canadians go? When did we let this country go the way it has gone? | |||
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Chuk: You wrote: "I guess maybe the FAC is a bad idea if you have something to hide." Does this mean you would allow a cop without a search warrant into your home to conduct a search because 'you had nothing to hide'?? | |||
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Kuduking wrote:" Now here is the German lecturing the American about invading their neighbors! Oh sweet irony." I am not aware of any country invaded by Germans after 1945, unless you count our tourists. However, looking at the US, I remember Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, the Dominican Republic, Grenada, Panama, Cuba, Afghanistan and so on. Ah yes, I know, hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered just for the sake of Democracy and Free Trade (for US companies). And yes, Mr. Bush only wants to restore human rights in Irak and is not at all interested in the Iraki Oil. When will he take care of the human rights in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, too? For Americans, the US might be the best place in the world and many have-nothings might want to go there. For myself, I very much prefer to live in one of the European Kanuckistans. [ 01-15-2003, 15:27: Message edited by: DUK ] | |||
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I don't know what you guys are talking about, read my damn post! chuck | ||
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Kudu king, I guess I'm a little confused. It's alright that when you go to another country (except Canada) that you have to do a whole bunch of paperwork on your firearms/licences etc. But it isn't OK in Canada, which still is another country. Why is that? Oh and we're not asking for any handouts, if you don't wish to hunt and fish here, it really is your loss. The only state that compares to Canadian hunting and fishing is Alaska. But we are telling you, that as your population becomes more urban, you WILL be following this path. Support the NRA while you can, I think another poster on another thread showed that out of 22 firearms owners in jury selection, only three belonged to the NRA. Work on fixing your porch before you tell me how to fix mine. - Dan | |||
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I'm starting to see why the Americans are raising concerns. There is definately a lack of education up here when it comes to our own gun laws. Sorry guys. chuck | ||
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I got one suggestion for ya'll fellow canadians immigrate to america LOL. Most people say the eastern canadians are the real butt heads. My experience with canadians have been with people like old-diesel. they where some of my dad's best friends when he was in the horse business | |||
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quote:Hell yeah you are confused. What are you talking about? What are you reading? Have you been drinking this long cold winter? I never once complained about paperwork or customs forms. I complained about the propect of being hassled, AFTER I filled out all the BS paperwork and was out in the bush HUNTING. The idea of having the gun control police breaking my balls because I stepped into the cabin, from the woods, and had a beer without putting my rifle into some arcane security system. And THAT is what your fellow Canadian and hunting writer, Mr. Wieland, is complaing about. [ 01-16-2003, 07:50: Message edited by: KuduKing ] | |||
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quote:I note with amusement your caveat "after 1945." I think until about 1964 your country was still under Allied control and forbidden to have a real military. This fact was due in no small part to the immediate pre-1945 German regime which accomplished a scale of human genocide quite unmatched in its horror in all of human history. Said genocide which could only occur with the participation of the German people, both actively and passively. Now the freshly "passivist" modern German allows further genocide to occur next door in Bosnia, where thousands of Muslims were most cruelly exterminated for purposes of ethnic cleansing. The German and his European friends sat on their hands until the Americans arrived to kick ass, take names and do your European dirty work for you (once again), and stop the slaughter. Meanwhile the European generals paraded around in their starched uniforms, gave pointless orders and pretended to have actually done something about the human suffering. What was America's strategic interest in that? None. We simply would not allow genocide to occur again in Europe after sacrificing hundred of thousands of American lives to restore freedom during WWII. For the German to criticize America on this score is beyond ludicrous. Your mention of Afghanistan is similarly beyond comprehension. Unlike the German, who has an international reputation of paying off terrorists and sending them to some other place to kill someone else, we will find the terrorists, and those that harbor or suport them. When we find them, we will destroy them. We make no apologies for that. Unfortunately war does not produce perfect results, and we can only hope it ends quickly. [ 01-16-2003, 08:39: Message edited by: KuduKing ] | |||
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Kuduking wrote: "When we find them, we will destroy them. We make no apologies for that. Unfortunately war does not produce perfect results, and we can only hope it ends quickly." Now this is the real John Wayne, shoot them all and let God sort out the good and the bad ones... It is interesting how Mr. Kuduking is focussed at the obviously very black spots in my countries past and how he insults Europe without really understanding what�s going on in other places outside his backyard. I am wondering if there aren�t any black spots in every countries history. In the case of the US I would think about the genocide against the native americans, slavery and discrimination against blacks until the late sixties, the killing of more than a million innocent civilians in the Vietnam war, the senseless nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, etc. I am aware that "German bashing" is very popular due mostly to those cheap Hollywood movies where apparently some people acquired their knowledge about foreign countries and history. Still, I would like to mention that there was a German history before those unfortunate 12 years and also afterwards. We learned our lesson and are now called passivist. I can live with that and would recommend my american friends to moderate their agressive behaviour towards other countries and cultures as well. [ 01-16-2003, 15:41: Message edited by: DUK ] | |||
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