What is your vote? Re-introduced wolves in the Rocky Mountain states, good or bad?

Question:
What is your vote? Re-introduced wolves in the Rocky Mountain states, good or bad?

Choices:
Bad
Good
Both

 

It's a critter that most would like to see back in the woods. That said, their numbers have to be strictly controlled by hunting or they will become a serious problem. They are just big dogs and they will reproduce like dogs. Up here they can be shot by anyone with a bigame licence in any bigame season, or any private landowner who deems them a nuisance. There are lots shot and thats how we keep them under control and afraid of humans and out of town.

Oscar that is my point exactly.

Oscar,

That's a very sensible policy and we should probably copy that example here in the USA...

I only voted no because the morons in charge would not control the number of Wolves. I would love to see them back out in the wild but in todays world I feel you have to think about what the lawyers and liberals would do first.

John

I feel that the amount of area in the greater yellowstone area is too limited for them to live harmoniously with surrounding civilization.

Too many ranches, highways and strip malls. For their own sake and the peoples they were better off up farther north. But this is a case of crying over spilt milk now. Now, the proponents have no choice but to listen to the pissed of ranchers and the befuddled citizens spotting them hundreds of miles away. A situatiion that is only going to worsen even with their de-listing.

I seriously doubt if they will ever be erradicated from the area again and they will continue to increase their boundries. I expect they will reach as far as the Sierra Nevadas before this decade is up.

Yes and only 10 years into the experiment, established populations are in the Big Horn Mnts. Norhtern edge of Colorado. With singles and pairs in Utah, which were trapped and brought back to Wy. But trapping and returning won't last long. To costly, and what better way to have woles every where than let them roam.

Oregon DFW admits to 3 wolves in Oregon; 1. trapped with a radio collar and returned to Idaho 2. ran over by a car 3. shot illigally during hunting season. I don't believe the only 3 wolves in my state where accounted for. In SW Oregon (a long way from Idaho) many a hunter have claimed to have encountered them in the past few years. There is a specific reason our forefather eradicated the wolf from the lower 48. I'm sure that hippy america would not allow that route again. I would never have missed a moments sleep if they had never been re-introduced.

If easterners think wolves are so cute and cuddly, lets dump thirty or forty in Central Park.
The ensuing carnage just might convince one or two people of just what a vicious killing machine these animals are.
Our ancestors did not eradicate them because they were stealing carrots from the garden.


From: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2005/01/05/807820-sun.html

Jogger fights off timber wolf attack
CP 2005-01-05 02:47:26

SASKATOON -- A man's evening jog became a struggle for his life in northern Saskatchewan when a timber wolf lunged at his head and sank its teeth into his leg. But Fred Desjarlais, 55, was able to fight off several attacks by the large predator and then wrestled it into submission long enough for a busload of co-workers to arrive and scare the beast away.

"I don't know what came over me or how I did it," Desjarlais said from his Saskatoon home where he was recuperating. "All I know is I had his head and I wasn't letting go until someone came to help me."

Desjarlais works for Cameco Corp.'s uranium milling facility in Key Lake, about 640 kilometres north of Saskatoon. He had just finished his shift at 7 p.m. New Year's Eve, and decided to jog the three kilometres back to camp instead of catching the shuttle bus, when he was attacked.

At one point, he and the wolf were face to face as the beast reared on its hind legs and looked down at him, he said.

"He had a big mouth and a big head," Desjarlais recalled.

"It was a bad attack -- it bit him twice really badly -- but Fred's a remarkable man," said Kimm Barker, Cameco's Key Lake safety officer. "It wasn't a very smart wolf because of all the people it could have picked, it chose one of the strongest."

Desjarlais was already into his run when he heard something and glanced back to see the animal creep out of the ditch and walk toward him.

"He was taunting me, (walking) in a circle around me. I looked around real quick and thought, 'I hope he's alone.' "

Desjarlais hollered and tried to scare the animal off, but it lunged at his head. He jumped to the side and dodged, but the wolf came back.

"That's when I knew he meant business," said Desjarlais, who eluded a second lunge. But the wolf quickly spun around and bit into his shoulder.

Desjarlais was wearing several layers of clothing which prevented the bite from breaking the skin, but it did leave significant bruising. The wolf then turned its attention to his lower body and bit him twice in the pelvis.

Both man and beast fell over and got back up. When his chance came again, Desjarlais locked onto the wolf's back, threw his arms around the animal's head and put it in a headlock.

"I pulled him down the way you would take down cattle (for roping) and I dropped onto his head, pinning him there," said Desjarlais, who held on for about 30 to 40 seconds before co-workers returning to camp on the bus spotted the pair.

"He was pretty much at the end of his string. His strength was draining," said Barker.


This is just my opinion, but I would rather see the species extinct than to see them kill a single human. While we have not had a wolf kill a human recently, any realistic person knows it will happen in the near future.
Can anyone tell me how many human lives should be exchanged for the protection of grizzley bears, wolves, or cougars.

If it means trapping wolves in Canada and sending them away I’m all for it. Come to Canada and shoot all you can.

Roy, No thanks, our illustrious government already paid millions to get wolves from Canada. It was like the preverbial, PSSSST! "I got some swamp land for sale",

I have hunted with Canadian outfitter/owners. Each one along with thier guides all said the same thing, time and time again. If you see a wolf shoot it! They all had photos and stories of wolf killed moose, half eaten, caribou cows killed and thier calves ripped out with the rest left to rot. Horses hamstrung in corals. Dead dogs killed right in the yard. I am sure you have some of the same stories.

shoot.....shovel....shut up

quote:

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Originally posted by Idaho Shooter:
If easterners think wolves are so cute and cuddly, lets dump thirty or forty in Central Park.

---

Please do--the "herd" over there is in desperate need of thinning, and anything that preys on individuals that deviate noticeably from the norm will find a rich banquet...

I voted "bad"... though I teetered on "good and bad"... given a different day I could as easily voted that way.

This issue just isn't as simple as those who can hold only one thought at a time in their mind's would have us think.

It's not that I believe wolves are "bad"... I admire and respect wolves. They're an amazing, nearly "supernaturally effective" predator and an icon of genuine wilderness. Too, the Yellowstone elk herd was abnormally large and YNP was grossly overgrazed.

In an ideal world we here in Montana would have virtually uninhabited wilderness stretching infinately north with room for all. Problem is there's very little genuine wilderness in MT. People back east are under the impression that the Yellowstone eco-system is a sort of limitless wilderness... just ain't so. There's a LOT of population here with big, open valley's and "pockets" of timbered "wilderness."

My elk hunting partner ranches just outside the park in Paradise Valley and has had a real struggle with wolf kills on his place (over 40 sheep and several calves in the last four years). That represent's a LOT of income for a small ranch with a big family. He has been reimbursed by Defender's but I doubt that can be counted on forever. He's been issued several kill permits by FWP and spent 90 days in a row fall before last trying to get on one. He found it nearly impossible despite being one of the sharpest hunter's I know (he's guided around Yellowstone since 1971). Finally this fall he shot one wolf... small victroy.

Because of our recent mild winters, the exagerated elk numbers around the park and easy picking's on local ranches the wolves have had it all their own way... litter's have been big and "breeding like rabbit's" is an apt way to describe their growth. Couple that with the Federal intimidation policies surrounding wolf reintroduction and management and we've got a genuine problem here in MT on our hands.

There is a glimmer of light as the state management plans are in the works and will be instituted soon. Also, rancher's are now not required to have kill permit's to take wolves that have attacked livestock... just a couple of years ago the Fed's were using the threat of land confiscation, so things are moving in the right direction!

Anyway, those are some rambling thought's on an overcast winter morning in MT...

I surely don't live in Montana, but I think this issue is more than about wolves. Sure, Defenders and groups like them would love to see a full wolf (and grizzly) recovery in all of the traditional ranges of these animals. I would too in theory, but, as you stated, Brad, there is very little true wilderness left in not only Montana, but the rest of the western states as well. Farm, ranch, town, and "ranchette" development has changed the landscape of the west forever, and as a result true wilderness animals like wolves and grizzlies will simply never be able to exist in true harmony with the landscape we altered. It's pretty much a matter of "us or them", and the same conflicts that led to the demise of wolves and grizzlies in the early part of the 20th century are set to explode now -- heck, they're already exploding. Only now, if a rancher shoots a grizzly or wolf, he can get into a whole heap of trouble even if his actions are justified. He practically has to have bite marks on his own ass to justify his actions.

I think some of these recovery groups have another agenda in mind besides the restoration of wolves: They'd like to see the west depopulated and restored to a primeval state. They'd love to see large areas of the great plains and rocky mountain west returned to an area comprised of native vegetation, buffalo, pronghorn, elk, etc., and without human population. Many of these same people hate ranchers, and would love to seen the ranching industry (and hunting industry) destroyed altogether. The widespread reintroduction of wolves is part of that agenda. If wolves can be seen as having more rights than humans, then so much the better as far as these folks are concerned. They talk a good game about "co-existance", but the real agenda is to get humans out of the picture.

AD

Allen,

I think that you're spot on in your opinion.

-Steve

Allen: You're spot on.

I am a Canadian, so I will not speak to the actual issue in respect of whether or not Wolves should be introduced to any American territory as the policies of the USA, except where they affect my country, are none of my business.

However, someone posted an opinion mentioning Canadian outfitters which is not reflective of Canadian public opinion in general. These outfitters are in favour of Wolf eradication because Wolves, in their natural state eat animals that said Outfitters want to sell to rich foreigners. This is rapidly becoming very unpopular here in Canada and I expect to see a total ban on "non-resident alien" hunting here, especially in B.C., within less than a decade.

The Wolf kills as it has evolved to kill, it is not "savage" or "vicious" and although the results of Wolf predation may upset those squeamish "outdoorsmen" who collect trophies by paying guides to actually do the hunting, it is a fundamental part of natural ecosystems.The terminology used to describe Wolf behaviour is the product of the fevered imaginations of "hunters" who have very likely never seen a wild Wolf.

In any event, we in Canada now have and expect to continue to have Wolves and we shoot them as game animals, etc; as Oskar mentioned, this controls any excess population or the very rare threat to humans. I prefer to recreate in genuine wilderness with substantial populations of Grizzlies, Wolves and very few people and this is my birthright; with the growing awareness of true conservation in Canada, I should be able to enjoy this for many more years as I have for nearly fifty previous ones.

Allen, you raised more issues which I believe I'm pretty clear about but which I didn't take the time to post.

There is an "eco-war" in the West right now and I live at the front line. There's a belief here that the wolf reintroduction is part of a bigger Federal land grab (extending YNP's boundries)... the wolf could certainly be used as "leverage" to make a case for said land grab. Generally, I'm not a conspiracy theorist as I just don't think people are smart enough to orchrestrate large events like this... that said, it doesn't mean they won't try!

Many people that post on this topic have such an inflexibly one-sided view of this issue that there's no point trying to discuss compromise, yet compromise on all sides is what it's going to take to achieve some sort of result we can all put up with. The eco-extremeist's won't compromise eaither, yet that's not the majority on "the other side"... good people on both sides of the issue can, should and do disagree.

Honestly I'd rather live with Kutenay up in BC as it's my favorite place on earth. Montana, for me, is a compromise (though a pretty good one!). BC has genuine wilderness with enough room for wolves and grizzlies... both of which, for me, are an important part of real wilderness. I'm a wilderness wanderer first and foremost... big game hunting is just part of that.

What Allen said.

Yup! I agree with Allen to. I don't hate wolves, just the manner in which they were reintroduced and by whom. And the lies from the USF&W that have followed.

We already had wolves, the Urbigkits proved it with video footage in 90 or 91 and a guy by the name of Jerry Kyser shot a wolf near Jackson in 93 or 94, the USF&W had adamately stated publicly that there were no wolves in Wy. He was never prosecuted. How can you prosecute someone for doing something that doesn't exist. Jerry made a few bucks off a poster he was selling that had a picture of him with the wolf pelt and a statement that reads, "Elvis Lives in Jackson" "Clinton won't raise taxes" and there are no wolves in Wyoming.

Isn't it convenient for the liberals that the land grab agenda fits in so well with the gun grab agenda. Just dedicate the game herds to the survival of the predators, then outlaw hunting, then outlaw hunting rifles, then confiscate all firearms. I can almost hear Hillary giggling with glee.

Wolves have only one way to control their population... Starvation.

It is a boom and bust ecology for the top predator. Yep Allen I agree with you.

Here is another Wildlife organazation that is trying to do something.

I love the hat!

http://www.sfwsfh.org/wyomingsfw.html

I agree with Allen.I live right in ther middle of Idaho where Wolves are becoming quite a problem to the Ranchers-Hunters and the local people who live in semi remote areas where there children and pets are at risk.They the Fish and Game have already had to kill off two packs just South of here.

I don't and didn't see the need to reintro them here as they were already here and have been like the Grizzly bear for years.The Forest Service in McCall Idaho(Payette National Forest) had Wolf studiers 20 years ago.My neighbor was one of the first to study the already here Wolves.

Good luck........Jayco

I think the day will come when we will have to round up all of the "earth first", "peta", "hollywood liberal" types and ship them off to the middle east. In fact I think we should lobby the selective service to begin drafting them now..

WestCoaster
one of us

posted 12 January 2005 05:14
Well I can speak to how Wolves will impact you.
On Vancouver Island B.C./Canada our wolves had been nonexistant till the mid 60's then reports started to filter in of sightings, nobody got too excited then. About the same time due to heavy logging on the north island our Blacktail deer population took off and for several years we had unbelievable hunting here! Well the wolves spread out and when they arrived in the north island with its burgeoning deer population their numbers exploded. In a few short years they essentially wiped out our deer populations to relatively unhuntable numbers. During all this we the hunters pleaded with our Provincial Govt. for a wolf cull all to no avail as they were not going to anger the bambi lovers no matter what! It is now about 30 yrs past and in some areas we are starting to see an improvement in deer numbers but nothing very exciting. We now have an established wolf pop. but at least we have trapping and hunting to keep them somewhat controlled. So now between the Cougars, Wolves and Black Bears they manage to keep the Deer levels pretty low. Of course some areas are doing better than others but overall we have a sad situation here. Our game branch is politically controlled and we have a well established anti hunting lobby here so they are no help whatsoever. In spite of all that I have said here I believe that if you have a situation where the wolf numbers are strictly monitored and you manage for Ungulates then there is no problem with having them around, but..... if you do not have this guaranty then expect the wolves to manage the game for wolves and this will mean limited hunting oppurtunity for hunters.

quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
It's a critter that most would like to see back in the woods. That said, their numbers have to be strictly controlled by hunting or they will become a serious problem. They are just big dogs and they will reproduce like dogs. Up here they can be shot by anyone with a bigame licence in any bigame season, or any private landowner who deems them a nuisance. There are lots shot and thats how we keep them under control and afraid of humans and out of town.

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I think the re-intro was good.

I think leaving them unmanaged is gross negligence at best.

If a wolf finds a place he wants to be it will be hard to keep him from there by relocating alone.

The was a radio collared wolf up here that was transplanted and within a couple of days was heading back home. The wolf was transplanted from Nelchina or Tok to the Kenai peninsula @ 500 miles away. I don't remember if it made all the way back but it did make it at least halfway to the mat-su valley. Which means it went through the Anchorage bowl.

BAD DOGS! S.S.S.

The wolf population in Michigan will reach 400 pretty soon. We've even got lions now and at least one wolverine.

The coyote population is also way out of control. My new varmint scope mount spotlight showed up yesterday, special delivery.

A guy has got to be realistic about this whole deal...no one listened to our opinion before the reintroduction, otherwise we would have no wolves in the west. I doubt that anyone in Washington takes us seriously, even if the state is trying to sue the USFWS.
If Wyoming is successful in getting our wolf management plan pushed ahead, even before the wolves come under state control the anti's are going to sue the pants off our Game and Fish.
It is a sad day, when wildlife management decisions are being made by folks wearing a black robe that know only the propaganda they have been fed, rather than the professionals who are stuck with dealing with this problem day in and day out. I hate the gloom and doom scenario, but it just seems that this is a sign of our pathetic times.
Now I hear that the MT Gov. wants to take all the bison out of Yellowstone and test every one for brucellosis??? WTF??

MG

It seems to me that (generally) people who live in "wolf country" tend to have little liking of them, while people who do not live anywhere near them regard them as a majestic symbol of the wild and want to see them brought back - into someone else's back yard.

In Ontario, wolves have generally been considered as little more than vermin, and could be taken on a small game licence in a year-round open season and no bag limit.

Recently, some eco-idiots have convinced sone of our round heeled politicians that the wolves in southern and eastern Ontario may be southern red wolves (over a thousand miles from their home range), and have had them institute licencing, limits and closed areas for the upcoming season. Ontario hunters may soon have to institute a shoot, shovel and shut-up attitude to keep the things under control.

Do you guys think the control should be turned over to the states? Just a thought, like Madgoat said, it will break the G&F departments. The feds brought them here, let them pay and control. They have killed over 200 wolves since introduction, it has to be running them ragged. They made the nest let them lie in it.

If every hunter that goes out in the Yellowstone area does his part when he sees one it will make a difference..It is something that has to happen if we wait for the gov. to do something it will be too late. I MN they have talked about delisting for 10 years and still no controls. If it wasn't for the locals taking it upon them selves there would not be many deer left up there. It has to happen here too..P

First let me state that I am not against the controlled harvest of wolves - I plan on buying a wolf tag when I go to Alaska in 2006. If the wolves in the Mountain West have reached their recovery goals - then it is shameful that they haven't already been delisted and recognized as a game animal.

Now, my next bit is probably going to PO many, but it's late and my brain is frazzled so what the heck. I just wonder what the reaction of the majority of the people on this forum would be if it was suggested that every single lion, leopard, cheetah, Cape hunting dog, and hyena should be exterminated from sub-Saharan Africa? While we're at it let's do away with all the tigers in India - they eat lots of people every year. Dolphins eat tons of fish every day that could go to feeding millions of Japanese people - let's whack them too. Bats carry rabies and scare little old ladies - in the dumpster with them.

I seem to remember a discussion last year where many advocated the on-the-spot killing of poachers in Africa. Over here "shoot-shovel-and shut up".

Are predators a danger to livestock - yes. Will I be pissed if a mt. lion kills one of my cows - yes. Do predators sometimes kill people - yes. Do they ad to the spice and fabric of our lives - yes. However, I'm still waiting for a documented case of a wolf killing anyone in America (kill not attack). I see this as something that we have to begin to deal with - here in East Texas we are seeing the return of black bears and mountain lions. Now I've got to be a little more vigilant, more awake to my surrounds when I walk the woods - but I'm going to have to be really careful in Alaska. I really have to be careful ... each time I get in my car and drive to town. And, I've carried pepper spray to protect myself from overgrown, "pet" canines, that's dogs "for those of you who live in Rio Linda", while walking down a paved street - maybe I should just "shoot - shovel - and shut up".