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I normally do not post the same thing (if ever) in two different forums. However, I thought I would post this as this forum may see more traffic. I’d really appreciate some opinions. I’d first like to make a disclosure. I am no gun or ballistics expert. I have a dilemma (it’s a good dilemma). Based on last years drawings odds, I’m about 75% sure I’ll draw a Utah sheep tag. I have several rifles to choose from but will probably by a new gun for this hunt. I’m looking more of a light weight rifle than what I currently have. I’m looking at the Brown Hells Canyon model. I’m a big Browning fan and this looks like it might be what I’m looking for. I would really like a .300 Win Magnum. It has been my favorite caliber in the past. However, if I purchase it, there are not a lot of factory ammunition options. I would really like to test different ammunition before I settle on something. There is little availability with this caliber in regards to ‘premium’ options. Therefore, I’m actually considering buying a .308 instead. I want to get comfortable and confident shooting out to 500 yards. There is currently a lot of different ammunition options in this caliber. What do you think? Should I go with the .308? Do any of you have experience with the new(er) Browning Hells Canyon? Thank you! | ||
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I used a .308 with full satisfaction to hunt a once in a lifetime sheep. It is a fully adequate cartridge for hunting sheep and certainly is an accurate cartridge. But 500 yards? You've been reading too much marketing hype and internet drivel. Stalk closer. You'll have a more satisfying hunt and the chance of wounding and losing a once in a lifetime animal will be less. | |||
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MOst sheep even desert big horns are shot at 100 to 200 yards, the 308 would be fine..but all that said the ideal sheep rifle is the 270 WCF hands down..I shot my first sheep in Mexico with a 25-35 win carbine by accident..That cost me 5 lbs of suger a brick of 22s and a case of shotgun shells. fine..so I shot another one and added another case of shotgun shells..Lord how I loved that mordida system.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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+1 100% I've shot 3 Montana Bighorn rams and a NWT Dall ram, all one shot kills, and the longest shot at any of them was 206 yards at the Dall. I shot all of those rams with my .257 Ackley and 117 grain Sierra GameKing handloads. I also have a Weatherby Vanguard in .308 Win that I shoot weekly at our range gongs out to 450 yards. I have a Leupold VX 3i 4.5-14x40 CDS scope on it and I have verified and marked the CDS turret out to 430 yards so I can dial the turret to any range out to 450 yards and be confident that my shot will hit the target at that range. I would not hesitate to use that rifle on any North American sheep hunt. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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308 is fine. If you're buying a new rifle in the Browning I'd take a hard look at the 6.8 Western. I've shot the Hells Canyon and they are nice. I like Sakos better. Both are good options. | |||
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I appreciate the advice from everyone. Truth be known, I have no intention of shoot 500 yards. I of course prefer getting as close as I can. However, I do want to be prepared for a longer in the rate case that I cannot get closer. Years back, I saw a situation where it was impossible to closer to an elk (I know it was not a sheep hunt) and my wife shot the elk at 430 yards. I want to be as prepared as possible and a 100 yard shot would be great. Thank you | |||
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300 Win Mag. Ammo is plentiful. It will reach out but the recoil is not that much more than a 308. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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One consideration of a good sheep rifle IMO is its weight because of their sometimes insane habitat. Considering that I think you would be better off with a 308. Im with Ray though, I would take my 270 or 257 Roberts. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Kimber has a lightweight 280 AI, but you will need to load for it for ammo variety. Factory ammo is produced, but not much. Of course it's made in 308 and other calibers too. Good luck on the hunt! | |||
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This absolutely a concern and hitting 50 this year has me wanting a lighter pack  | |||
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Years back my brother brought a custom 257 Ackley improved on 1903 Mannlicher action. The gentleman said it was his sheep rifle. Nice rifle don't think he has fired it much most likely he would sell it. | |||
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308 is perfect, as will anything you can shoot accurately. I used a 7m-08, necked down .308, on mine when I turned 50: bang flop at a lofty 35 yards. Get what you like and what you'll practice with. Shot placement is 99% regardless of other blather. Much more important! Please post pictures when you get your sheep! | |||
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mt Al: Thanks for the advice. It will be enjoyable finding out what I shoot best. I am first going to try my Rem .280. I plan on trying some different loads to see how it shoots. If that does not work out, I will try something else. From these replies and a few PM's I have decided that before I buy a new rifle, I will try the above set up first. Besides, after adding up all the equipment I will need, I think that helps the decision as well. With all that said, I am still not guaranteed the tag but it is likely I will be hunting next fall. | |||
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Learn your DOPE on any modern sporting rifle and you will be fine. It's not always distance that you need to be concerned with. Anyone can ring a gong at 600 on a still day with a 308. Try it with a 25 mph crosswind and you will appreciate velocity a bit more. I missed a stud of an Aoudad on a windy day shooting across a canyon with a 308. I often wonder if a 300 mag would have been enough velocity to better the odds. | |||
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My friend took his sheep in NV last year with his .308. No issues. If the Browning .308 is what you want, buy it, use it and tell us about your hunt! Good Luck! All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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Some of the Model 70 Extreme Weathers are pretty light (6 lbs 12ox) without scope, sling unloaded and some in nice calibers including 308. Might be worth a look. I'm thinking of buying one to replace the 270 I gave my so. Right now I'm hunting elk with my 500 Jeffery. It weighs 12 lbs with scope unloaded, so it's a work out, but it handles light in my hands. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I bought lightweight sheep rifles 20 yrs ago for when I drew a tag and still no sheep or goat tags. Montana has a terrible system to draw tags. I think the 270 win is tough to beat, but I will probably never get to use it for sheep. | |||
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I have two of the Hell’s Canyon guns . 308 & 26 Nosler. Both shoot well. I recently did a couple of days training at long distance with a retired Delta Force sniper . He has won the Wimbledon Cup multiple times . I took the 308. At 300 yards it was fantastic. At 600 yards , it was awful. On the other hand, I also took a Begara chambered in 6.5 Creedmore . It was lights out at 600 yards . The instructors theory is that it was my ammo causing the change but could not be sure . With the 26 Nosler, I can hit a baseball sized gong every single time at 300 yards. Having done a lot of sheep hunting , I’d take a 300 . | |||
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What about the .257 Weatherby? | |||
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Mountains usually equal wind. I'd want a heavier bullet than a 257 Wby uses. | |||
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Larry: The .300 has been my favorite caliber. I have a Ruger which is quite heavy. My dad offered me his Christensen Arms .300 which I shoot quit well. It’s light with little recoil. I’ll try a few different options. After adding up all the gear I’m looking at purchasing, I may be taking a slingshot ha ha. | |||
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i used a light weight 306 for all of mine - but ut might be to old to use today | |||
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30-06 is the king and the .308 is right there with it. | |||
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The hardest part of sheep hunting is drawing the tag. The next hardest is getting into the country that hold sheep and finding what you want. The last thing to worry about is killing the ram. Full disclosure: I worry about the weight and cartridge also and have used a number of different ones but never a 308. 6.5x280AI 280 270 270WSM 280AI 7mm Rem 300 Win Multiples with a few of those named and they all worked to perfection at various ranges. Sheep are not tough to kill if hit correctly. I would always be prepared to take a 500 yard shot if the situation and terrain dictates but start cutting that number way down as the wind goes up. It's called honing your craft! By the way, I could name the yardages on a few of those rams but I won't for fear of being castigated by those with obviously more sheep hunting experience. Zeke | |||
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I Like that "Honing Your Craft" statement, Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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I bet few would object to a 6.5 creedmor. So I struggle as to why there would be an objection to a 308 win  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, Thanks for the smile. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I have a friend who hunts in Europe. He is fixed on energy levels the cartridge generates!!?? I keep telling him that is the last of my worries when it comes to hunting, accurate shooting is all that matters. My 375/404 has more drop than the 308 Winchester. I have been using it for so many years, shooting animals from a few feet to over 500 yards. Know your rifle, and hunt with whatever you like best. | |||
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Great chart Mike! Those 6.5 cartridges really shine at distances that are un ethical to be shooting at game animals. Unethical for a number of reasons, in my opinion: Too far away to keep all shots on a pie pan, which approximates the lethal zone Too far away to understand how the bullet will drift in the wind. Wind is neither linear, nor constant. Too far away for established zero's. One thousand yard ranges are very rare east of the Mississippi, don't know their availability West, but that is a lot of land to pay taxes on, and not do anything but shoot. Having shot in many 1000 yard matches, you have to have good zeros' to have a chance of hitting the black first shot. Book values don't work, they might get you on an ten foot by ten foot target, but they won't get you in the middle. And, for the distances you read in the in print press, the 1500 yard shots, who has a 1500 yard range to establish a 1100 yard zero, a 1200 zero, etc, out to 1500 yards? And, you don't know bullet stability out to those extreme ranges. I was very surprised to find 190 SMK's tumbling at a muzzle velocity of 2535 fps at 600 yards. Shot well at 300 yards  tumbling before it reached the 600 yard target.   Too far away to ensure expansion of the bullet. Most cup and core don't expand under 1800 fps. Might as well as be shooting FMJ's at the extreme distances promoted in the in print press. | |||
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I have hunted sheep in Alberta, British Columbia and Yukon Territory. I used a 300 mag on every hunt. Having said that none of the sheep were out of range for a .308 And I would certainly hunt Sheep with a .308. If I were looking for a light sheep rifle in 308, I would consider a Remington model 7. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Sight a 308 in 2.5 to 3 inches high at 100 yards, then check your zero at 200,300 and 400 if you can,if not just go with it as is and use a center body hold on the shoulder for a hit..The 308 will kill an elk stone dead at 400 yards with a properly placed bullet and witha rest and good trigger pull on a sighted in rifle, a 400 yard shot is fairly easy, wind can be the spoiler, not elevation has been my mini series over the years..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Browning makes a nice rifle in the Hell's Canyon series. As for cartridge, it doesn't matter. What matters is bullet and speed. You want a bullet that has a 0.5 or better G1 ballistic coefficient, and you want it travelling 2700fps or faster. Drop is stupid easy to figure out and deal with. Wind is a cast iron bitch to deal with. High BC bullets handle wind better. ANY bullet with the above spec, at that speed, out of any caliber will be a good blend of drop and wind bucking. A .308 Win spitting a 165 gr Sierra Tipped GameKing would be ideal, IMO. That said, a 6.5 Creedmor, Swede, or 6.5-284 with a 140gr Tipped GameKing would also be money. 7mm-08, 7X57, or the best, a .284 Win shooting a 140 or 150 gr tipped GameKing would likewise be well suited. These are just examples of putting together the whole picture. Bullets don't kill with energy, they kill by blowing the shit out of the animals innards, and that means speed and proper placement. High BC bullets increase hit rate (this is provable), and retain speed at distance. Just my 2 cents, but I wouldn't hesitate to take a .308 with the right bullet. Jeremy | |||
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Thanks fir all of the suggestions. Me and my wife went for a trip this last weekend for our anniversary. On the way, I stopped into a mom and pop sporting goods store. I could not believe that they had several boxes (5) of 7mm WSM. 4 boxes were 140 grain and the other box was 150 grain. I bought all of them. I’m going to see how well thus factory ammo does. If it shoots well, or I should say if I shoot it well, I’ll go with the 7mm WSM. I’m also getting some help from Mike D on my .280. We will load some of these and I’ll test them as well. I still like the idea of the .308. However, given what I already have, I’ll put the new gun idea (money) towards gear. | |||
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I used to sight in some of my rifles at 200 yds, then I realized that doing so could potentially handicap me at close shots, especially if shooting at an up or down angle. Now I sight in all of my rifles @ 100 yds. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Why ? Seems silly to chance the trophy of a lifetime on a cartridge not suited for the job.  Talking as a sheep hunter of many years.Grizz When the horse has been eliminated, human life may be extended an average of five or more years. James R. Doolitle I think they've been misunderstood. Timothy Tredwell | |||
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How so? Most high velocity cartridges would be maybe an inch low at 25 yards and a tiny bit high at 50 yards with a scoped rifle and a 2.5 to 3 inch high zero. So unless your shooting something really small at close range missing wouldn't be the fault of the gun. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Well that all depends doesn't it. Take a SP with a BC of .390 for example @ 2700 fs MV and dial her in @ 200 yds, it will be just over 2" high @ 100 yds. But that is according to a horizontal sight in. Throw in a steep hill shot and the divergence just gets worse. Sight in yours however you like, but considering that the majority of critters are taken inside of 100 yds that is potentially a good 3" out of whack that I can do without. Besides, at a greater distance the odds are better that you might have more time to sort out the bullet drop and compensate accordingly. For anyone who knows their rifle I suppose it is mostly a matter of preference. 100 yd zero has become mine. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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If you already have a 280 then you are set. It will kill everything you need to kill out as far as one should reasonably be shooting. Our 280s are stone-cold-killers on everything from small critters up to bison and moose. (The same as many favorite cartridges for other hunters.) | |||
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My uncle just bought a Browning Hells canyon in 270WCF. He shot under MOA right out of the box with his first group. He shot a box of ammo and all of his shots were under MOA out to 300yds. For him that is big because he is not a rifle shooter. He's always been a bow hunter but now he's having issues with his shoulder that prevents him from drawing his bow. I am impressed with the rifle overall. It shoots the 145gr Precision Hunter whereas my Winchester Featherweight doesn't like them a bit. The one good thing about the 308 is the fact that every single ammo company will carry several different loadings for it. In the current climate it might not be the easiest thing to get but finding anything around here is a chore. | |||
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