A while back there was a thread going regarding the superiority, or not, of the modern variable powered scope for hunting. Allen came out loudly in favor of the variables while I calmly cast my vote for the good quality fixed power scope.
Now it happened that yesterday after supper I was looking out the window and noticed that one of the deer in the field looked different than the others. A look through the 20x spotting scope confirmed that it was indeed a small buck! Well, we eat these things so I decided this one would fit well in the freezer.
This deer was standing about 750 yards from the house and I know that many of the guys who frequent these forums would simply have taken it from the porch. I lack that confidence though so decided to stalk the deer. I planned the stalk from the confort of my couch while I put on my boots.
The first step was to neutralize Buddy, the pointer, and his beagle friend so they wouldn't screw things up. They had already noticed that I had gotten a rifle out so they knew something was up. I managed to get Buddy into the house but Beagle Bailey was another matter altogether and showed some impressive evasive manouvers for a dog that is a bit overweight. In the end I decided to get in the truck and drive out the back of the yard as if I were going somewhere then double back. It worked! It will be a sad day when I can't outsmart a beagle!
In outfitting myself for this "hunt" I'm sure I did some things right from Allen's viewpoint. I was using a CRF rifle. A M70 in fact. That's a plus. It was a 30 cal magnum (it isn't a 300 Win Mag but as a 308 Norma it shouldbe close enough)another plus. It has a wood stock which might be a minus but for front yard use should be OK. But, and this is a major "but", it wears only a 4x scope.
It turned out there were at least 20 does and fawns between me and my intended victim so it took quite a long time for me to crawl out to where I could see the buck or, in this case, see where he had been a half hour earlier. I located a group of about 7 deer and, sure enough, the one one the extreme right appeared to be my buck. I got into the sling and into a solid prone position. My right elbow was planted solidly in a pile of elk dung. As I looked through the 4x Scopechief though Icouldn't really see the antlers. The sun had just set and it wasn't real light and the deer was refusing to pose for me so I just couldn't be sure. In the end I gave up and stood up. All the deer I had laboriously crawled past looked at me inquisitively and went back to eating. One, in answer to my question, "What are you lookin' at?" switched her tail and took a couple of steps toward me. I stomped back to the truck which, as you recall, I had driven out to give the beagle the slip.
So what did I learn from this debacle? Well, either one should only hunt deer whose antlers are larger than their ears. Or maybe, just maybe mind you, Allen might be right and I should get one of those variable scopes! Regards, Bill.

Or you could grab a rifle wearing a fully multi coated 6X42 on it.
How about a binocular ? A variable makes a poor substitute for one. E

Bill,

You could stick a deer decoy out at 750 yards and shoot at it any time you want. On the other hand, how many times do you get the chance to stalk, and I mean really stalk, a deer like that off your back porch? Personally, I would say that you did things "right" and picked a satisfying, challenging and plain fun approach regardless of the outcome. I stalked a buck several times over 18 months before I eventually help in his down fall. The whole story behind it, makes it more of a story for my mate who eventually pulled the trigger and took him.

The only thing your outfit really lacked was a pair of decent bino's; they would have allowed you assess all and any of the deer at a reasonable range before switching to your rifle and x4 scope to make the shot.

Regards,

Pete

[ 09-24-2002, 18:44: Message edited by: Pete E ]

I just want to have a place where I can see a deer 750 yds from my porch and the land between my porch and the deer is "all" mine. Do you know how good you got it?

A rifle scope is to shoot game, not observe or identify...you should have a set of good quality binoculars..

I would not hunt without them...also perhaps a scope of higher definition,.....I can see a barbwire fence at 300 yard and I can see the barbs at 200 with my Leupold 4X, that should surfice for any hunting situation. I can see a bull elk or deer at 1000 yards well enough to get a good sight picture. I would not take such a shoot..

No doubt a good varible will give you a bit of an edge, but that edge is removed by the fact that a good fixed power has fewer working parts and has less tendency to go heywire at the most inopertune moments IMO....Leupold and others tells me the fixed power seldom is returned for repair and that is taking into consideration that more varibles are sold than fixed scopes..They say it is just a fact of life, go figure...

There is a reason I like fixed scopes or low power varibles with 20 MM objective lens and its based on my personal experiences..

I certainly don't require anyone to agree with me on this issure, and most don't, but I'm convienced that the durability, toughness and ability to hold a zero overides the attributes of a big varible scope..

Bill:

Congratulations on a great stalk, even if you came up empty.

What everybody says about the use of binoculars versus scopes for spotting is certainly true. However, in the circumstances you described, you had already "spotted" your quarry and were engaged in a stalk by crawling. Few of us would have burdened ourselves with the extra baggage of binoculars on a crawling stalk toward a previously identified target. Your point about the utility of the scope for FINAL identification of the target is an excellent one! The sight picture through your scope is always the last opportunity you have to be sure of your target. I can recall numerous times when a group of animals were "milling" about that the one I wanted was selected with binoculars, but after the binos were put down and the rifle positioned, the target had to be reidentified through the scope. A good variable DOES come in handy in this instance!

I would echo what some of the others have said about not having binos along for this little stalk, but any other time or place they would be on my neck!
That said, the variable would have made identification an easy thing and that, plus other reasons are why I use them in preference to any fixed power scopes.
As Ray said, I use them because they have worked for me, have never broken on a hunt or otherwise given me a bit of trouble. You can use whatever you want!

Bill,

Im not sure exactly where but Im sure we've covered this optic disgussion before. loved the story though, especially about the beagle and your selection of elbow rests.

Ray,

Ive been a 3X9 user for years but I think theres merit to your approach, Its pretty much a given that a non-vatriable has a reliability edge IMHO.
Im going to give it a try this year and see if I remember why I switched.

Since the price of quality fixed scopes is about the same as variables this debate is just for fun as far as new scopes go. The variables just offer more for the money.

But to get really specific then each hunt could have a different answer.

My hunting is for bucks with one antler a minimum of 3" long. I can see these horns with my 4X scopes and this really simplifies things. I don't bother with binoculars except for varmints.

But I just am buying Leupold variables now and used Lyman 4X All Americans. This is what works for me. If the price of a fixed Leupold was in line with what you get that's what I would but but it seems that the economies of scale make variables the best buy.

Well when I am hunting I turn my 3-9 down to 3x. When I am at the range it is cranked to 9x. So if you hunt only I would say a fixed scope would probably do you well but after 100 yards a 4x isn't helping me much shooting targets. Also I tend to shoot game close, like under 200 yards.

I just got back from moose hunting and my scope was set on 3x. I was along side a lake with an opening of cat tails,etc up to the tree edge. That case a variable is not needed. Also it turns out the gun wasn't needed since I saw no moose!

Well, I must say no matter how short the stalk/hunt, I always take bino's; to me they a crucial to my success whether in relatively wide open spaces or fairly thick woodland.
When I need to crawl, they either get tucked in my jacket or get slung under my armpit out of the way. Of course to use bino's effectively, you really need to change your whole style of hunting, and that is not easily done....

Me too - my binos allways around my neck and I do a lot of crawling.

With small roe bucks the difference between 6 and 7 power is noticeable when looking at tiny little antlers or penis tassles.

Enjoyable story - amazing how deer ignore you at last light.

Where I hunt,bino's are a hindrance, just more weight to lug. 50 to 80 yards hardly requires 'em. Now in your situation, knowing I had to crawl, I probably would have forgotten them as well. Worse, my variable is a 1 to 4.
Oh well, the most enjoyable part of hunting is the doing, not the kill.

If you were just after meat , why not just take one of the does ? One small deer eats about the same as another .........

sdgunslinger,
Why not take one of the does? Legality! here it is bucks only. Some bone head in Victoria got info that the deer population was on the decline so they stopped the limited entry draw for antlerless deer. We are constantly struggling to get trees to grow faster than the deer can eat them. When the deer eat one of my wife's shrubs it isn't the deer that has to put up with the bitching! Regards, Bill.

I savvy Bill . There are unwise buck only laws in effect in many places , one day maybe the various DNR s will wise up .

I am a fan of reasonbly sized fixed power scopes . However , under those conditions , where you may be forced to pick out small bucks from does , the variable likely is the best choice . To the folks that say use binoculars , feeding deer are shifting positions constantly . It may be important to be able to see those spindly antlers at the instant you need to shoot ......

[ 09-25-2002, 19:16: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

I've really had no use for binoculars. I do most of my hunting in heavy forests. I do carry mine deer hunting when chances of a longer shot could happen. I carry 20 year old Tasco's. I looked through some Pentax binoculars and they are a marked improvment over my Tasco specials.

If you hunt in areas where ranges are long I would rather spend money on a decent bino because you shouldn't be using a scope to look for animals.

I also hunt for meat not trophies. Any decent size animal I will squeeze the trigger on. Bucks only where I hunt as well.

I agree with JYC 100%.

[ 09-26-2002, 01:20: Message edited by: Ranger Dave ]

The day I cannot spot a buck with my binocs and then shoot him with my rifle because he shifted places, then I will never hunt again...I simply keep my eyes on him and shoot him, not that complicated...I think sometimes that stuff is just made up because it sounds plausable.......

I hunt the plains and the thickest bush with binocs, I stop and glass constantly...It works.

HotCore,
Maybe I couldn't see the barbs during those hours but I bet I could see the deer and the crosshairs, in fact I know I can....now I ask you is that not all that is required of a scope. It is for me...

Bill: I can identify with you on the deer and wife thing. I guess I am in the minority opinion- I only have 1 fixed power scope and it is a 12x, otherwise I use 2x7, 2.5-10, 3.5-10, and 6-24 power scopes, and if you look at most of my rifles you will find the scopes on 10x. The only time they go lower is low light conditions, or if trying to walk something up in some really thick stuff. I will say that the two biggest bucks I have shot to date were shot on 2x and 3x, and the shots were 275 yards and 350 yards, I think good optics will outdo high powered optics everyday.

Hey Mr.Ray, It seems that either your eyes are much better than my 20/15s(with contacts), your scopes have HEAVIER reticles then mine or we are just talking about different ambient light conditions. I'm not arguing with you, but I do believe we are talking about different types of hunting.

After my last post I was sitting back enjoying a bit of Liquid Corn and thinking about one old HUGE WHOPPER TROPHY Buck that walked 15yds from me that I couldn't shoot. I could not see his antlers due to the background(so "MAYBE" it was a 225pound Doe HAHAHA), but it didn't matter cause I had a "thin duplex" reticle that couldn't be seen either.

It was during the mid-November Rut back before the SC Wildlife folks issued us a bunch of Doe Tags. I was way up in a tree overlooking a large cornfield that had been picked and disked. Don't remember the exact time, but lets say Sunset was at 6:30PM and it was a little cloudy with a nearly Full Moon.

It was 45min after Sunset(still Legal), but I was all ready to begin coming down. As I was adjusting some stuff, I spot this HUGE Deer headed toward me. It was in the typical "Bloodhound" tracking mode with it's head and neck perfectly level with it's back. Apparently tracking a Hot Doe that had passed by earlier.

This WHOPPER came up within 15yds of me and I could not differentiate the Antlers from the mangled corn stalks laying haphazard about the ground. I switched to some "Compact" Binocs and could see even less(last time I ever used them).

Obviously a HUGE TROPHY Buck, but I couldn't see the crosshairs or the Antlers. Nearly burst an eyeball trying to strain to see - to no avail.

Old WHOPPER turned and walked directly away from me still Bloodhounding. He got about 150yds out and was closing on a piece of woods. About that time, a smaller Deer came bounding out of that woods and Froze in place. The WHOPPER never broke stride and walked on past. Little Deer waited until it passed and slinked back into the woods.

It went about 70yds farther and stopped. It turned and looked back in my direction like that old Elk used to do on the Insurance commercial. All of a sudden the clouds apparently moved and it was like a spotlight shone down upon him - my gosh, what a rack!

Now it is 220yds from me and I can spot the rack. Still can't see the thin reticle. It put it's nose back down and Bloodhounded across the open field to another woods.

...

Trashed the Compact binocs and said bad things about the folks that made them for the sucker that bought them. Got new 10x50s.

Got 8 Leupolds refitted with HEAVY Duplex reticles. Swapped around and got some of the nice big 50mm Objectives which help me considerably during the "Twilight Periods".

NEVER saw him again!!!

So, perhaps we are talking about slightly different hunting conditions. Now they issue us Doe Tags. So today when I get into that situation, if I can see the HEAVY Duplex, it is Trigger Time.

Good story ,Bill,if your place is like mine finding the rifle,one not apart or locked,then finding the binos.Boy that's asking alot.Good luck with the rest of the season.

Great story Bill! You shoulda grabbed that 6.5x55 and bench'ed him with some MatchKings.

Was this little buck out by the big black stumps?

Nice trick with Beagle Bailey. Good thing the horses aren't able to roam over that far, eh?

Canuck

Canuck,
Over by that old log cabin on the other side. As for the 6.5 you must remember, Matchkings are not a hunting bullet! (ouch!) Regards, Bill.