For all your preference point, bonus point, and drawing odds gurus...if you were trying to draw a big horn and a moose tag and were starting with no points and wanted to draw in the the next 10 years where would you apply?

For example is MT, the best bet because they use a bonus point system (i.e. more times your name is entered) versus other states where it is more unless you have X number of preference points you have almost no chance.

Idaho and Montana.

Idaho doesn't do any points and some of their moose draws are really decent odds(25%+ IIRC).

The success rates are not spectacular but if I were a retired guy with the ability to spend a bunch of time scouting the area and then put in the time during the season Idaho would be a great place to try.

Definitely ID for moose. My best buddy drew a tag the first year he applied for a tag in 2007 in a unit south of Pocatello and we got him a nice one. This year our buddy in Ohio drew his tag up in unit 2 along the WA border and we got him a nice one there. Both hunts were DIY and only took 4 days each. I wouldn't waste my money on sheep unless it was for that OTC tag in MT, but you had better have one lined up opening day because it doesn't take long and they close the season when the yearly limit is met.

I belong to www.gohunt.com and Huntingfool.

I recommend you join go hunt, and you'll end up with a 100% answer on every state odds.

I'd also buy raffle tags in every state that had them.

Send me a pm, and I'll give you more specific information.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
For all your preference point, bonus point, and drawing odds gurus...if you were trying to draw a big horn and a moose tag and were starting with no points and wanted to draw in the the next 10 years where would you apply?

For example is MT, the best bet because they use a bonus point system (i.e. more times your name is entered) versus other states where it is more unless you have X number of preference points you have almost no chance.

Montana's bonus point system is overrated. It's still the luck of the draw.

I've had the maximum number of bonus points on all species every year since they started them. I've applied every year since 1983 for sheep, and every year since 1988 for moose without drawing.

Montana gives away a lot of non-resident tags.

Only Wyoming gives away more for sheep. Moose are probably similar.

Odds really suck for Montana. Because Montana squares points, so if you have 3 you really have 9 plus 1 for the current year. Great deal if you are in it for a long time, sucky deal if you are new.


I was looking on gohunt. Your Idaho odds are 2-12%. Every non-resident odds will be .001-.007 percent until you accumulate enough points to draw.

quote:

Montana's bonus point system is overrated. It's still the luck of the draw.I've had the maximum number of bonus points on all species every year since they started them. I've applied every year since 1983 for sheep, and every year since 1988 for moose without drawing.

Buffy I'm in the same boat on Moose in Colorado. I applied for Moose here in 1986 and every year since with no luck, my brother who had less than half the years in the draw than me drew a Moose and Bighorn Sheep in the same year 4 years ago.
I drew a Sheep and a Goat back in the 1990's and have been applying for Desert Sheep since then, (1997), I try to boost my Moose odds by buying lots of statewide Moose raffle tickets.
This is my year (I keep telling myself that!).
This year Colorado will be inundated with new applicants because of the application changes.
Good luck to you all in the upcoming drawings!

utah might just be a sleeper for moose - i tried for 25+years for sheep in montanna and finally gave up

Here's some cold water on your camp fire.

Drawing a sheep tag anywhere within 10 years is a TALL order!

I've played this sheep thing in earnest since the early 70's and it's only gotten more difficult every year.

With that said, almost every State has a few random tags so decide how much money you are willing to spend and apply for every tag that there's even a slight chance of drawing.

I've been really dedicated and lucky over the years and been on some great sheep hunts in the States but it's all been tied to bonus points!

Idaho is about the only truly random draw that comes to mind.

Zeke

And sheep is overrated when it comes to trophy
Don’t get me wrong, hunting is hunting but the way people go crazy about them?
Kinda like , it’s rare so it’s gotta be fashionable
I’d go for big whitey, elk, bear ... and other readily available species any day.
Sure I apply every year for sheep, moose and goat and if I ever draw, yes, that would be awesome but not drawing ain’t loosing a sleep for me

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
Idaho is about the only truly random draw that comes to mind.
Zeke

NM is totally random too (no preference or bonus points for any species), but there are very few non-resident sheep tags available. We have no moose hunts.

For the cost of ten years worth of preference points and licenses in all those states you could probably go on a couple aoudad hunts in west Texas. I did an OTC Barbary sheep here in NM last year and that "poor man's desert bighorn" hunt was great! I apply here in NM for desert sheep, but I'm only out a few bucks for the application fee. Since I'll probably never draw one of the few tags, I'm planning on more Barbary sheep hunts here, and perhaps in TX as well.

Montana's point system is a joke. Know many people with maximum pts and no tag, but know people that draw with no or few pts. That should not happen.

I actually like the Montana Bonus point system.

The Montana version says we will add your name to the lottery more times based on the number of Bonus points you have but there is still the luck of the draw.

The other systems that I will call preference points simply turn into after 6,7,8 or whatever years you will get your tag. That basically says hey if you want to weight 8 years you will get a tag no but wait if a bunch of people apply in a particular year it may take 9 points...no but wait if people don't apply you might get it at 6.

For me, I have no idea what I will be wanting to do 3 years from now let alone 5 years from now.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
I actually like the Montana Bonus point system.

The Montana version says we will add your name to the lottery more times based on the number of Bonus points you have but there is still the luck of the draw.

The other systems that I will call preference points simply turn into after 6,7,8 or whatever years you will get your tag. That basically says hey if you want to weight 8 years you will get a tag no but wait if a bunch of people apply in a particular year it may take 9 points...no but wait if people don't apply you might get it at 6.

For me, I have no idea what I will be wanting to do 3 years from now let alone 5 years from now.

At least with the preference point system there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Montana ended their preference point system in 1983. They said that it was too hard for them to keep track of the points of all of the applicants. At that time I had 8 points. As I knew they were ending the preference point system, I looked up a unit where 8 points would draw, and drew a tag. That wasn't a top unit, but I did get a tag(and a ram!!!).

Montana then didn't have any kind of point system until 15 or 16 years ago when they started the current bonus point system, then several years ago they decided to square the bonus points. So now I have 16 points so squared, my name goes into the draw 256 times. Since there are 5-6000 other applicants for the unit that I apply for and easily 4000 of them could also have 16 points, and the other 1-2000 applicants would have 1-16 points, I will now have 256 chances out of about 1.1 million names in the drawing. I guess that's better than the first year applicant with only 1 chance, but its still the luck of the draw and there is no light at the end of the tunnel for those of us that have been applying every year for the past 30 or 40 years.

I got bit by the sheep hunting bug 40 some years ago, and I would rather hunt wild sheep than any other animal. If I am physically able to do it, I will still want to go sheep hunting 10 years from now.

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:

Montana then didn't have any kind of point system until 15 or 16 years ago when they started the current bonus point system, then several years ago they decided to square the bonus points. So now I have 16 points so squared, my name goes into the draw 256 times. Since there are 5-6000 other applicants for the unit that I apply for and easily 4000 of them could also have 16 points, and the other 1-2000 applicants would have 1-16 points, I will now have 256 chances out of about 1.1 million names in the drawing. I guess that's better than the first year applicant with only 1 chance, but its still the luck of the draw and there is no light at the end of the tunnel for those of us that have been applying every year for the past 30 or 40 years.

Unless Montana is quite different than AZ's bonus point system, the number of applicants in the actual draw are no more or less than the number of actual people who applied.

The bonus points are merely used to generate numbers for each applicant with only ONE of those numbers used in the drawing. So if someone has 256 points, the computer spits out 256 random numbers, and the lowest one is the one that is used.

So if 500 people apply for five permits in a given unit, the chances of getting drawn are 1:100, regardless of how many total bonus points that group might have had. Those with the five lowest numbers get the permits.

AZ doesn't square points but adds another little twist where 20% of the permits go to those who did have the highest number of BPs. For sheep it's based on the total number, i.e if there are 100 permits statewide, 20 are given to those who have the MOST sheep BPs. The rest go into the general draw. For other species, the 20% is based on the total permits for each hunt (unit).

Unless you apply in the first years of a preference point system there is no light in the end of the tunnel. For hard to draw permits which take multiple lifetimes to draw, a preference point system is exclusionary. Completely random is a better way to go. For tags that can be drawn in 10 years or less a preference point system works well. For tags that take 10-30 years a bonus system like Utah or WY might work. But for tags that take a half a life time or more to draw should not be given preference to applicants.

Take your money in apps and invest it in yourself. You can hunt moose this year for $5-10K and sheep for $15K on a cancelled hunt. You could spend $10k in app and raffle fees over the next 10-20 years and still not draw.

..

Tony,

Your discounting the issue that if you have 16 bonus points you have 256 chances of getting a low number randomly assigned as opposed to if you no bonus points you have 1 chance of getting a low number randomly assigned.

With no points, the best odds of drawing either of those tags is probably in Idaho. Even then, it's an incredibly remote chance, especially for the sheep tag. If you're serious about them, your only real option is heading to Canada.

Tony,

I really don't know exactly how Montana's drawings work. I was told that the computer would enter your name into the drawing the number of times of the square of your bonus points.

If we use the Montana Sheep unit with the most applicants (in 2016) there were 6922 applicants for 25 tags. In a straight draw that would be 1 chance in 277. The Montana FWP drawing statistics states a success rate of 0.35%.

So how do the bonus points work? By Tony's example, the computer would calculate and total everyone's squared points and that would be the total number of applications. Then the computer would divide up that total number by assigning a random number to each of everyone's squared points. I would assume that once a number is assigned it would be removed from the drawing bank. Then the people with assigned numbers 1-25 would get tags.

So using the unit above with 6922 applicants, if the total of squared points for all of those applicants equaled 1,500,000, then each applicant would draw a portion of 1,500,000 equal to his/her number of squared points. And if the first 25 applicants draw numbers 1-25, the remaining 6,897 applicants are SOL until next year. I get it.

Guys, its pretty simple across the west - although complex at the same time.

Here's how the states work (not in any particular order)

1. Arizona - bonus point system. Each year your apply you have "more names in the hat" but can still draw at anytime. Max point holders are preferred in the drawing.

2. Colorado - Pref / bonus point system. Get 3 points first, then you get a weighted point (bonus point) from there on out. You have no chance until your 4th year. Separate Desert sheep draw for non-residents (no points utilized)

3. New Mexico - No points at all. Each year you have the same odds as a guy who's applied for 20 years.

4. Wyoming - Pref points. Unless you have max points, you are in the "random" draw. Still a chance, but lower odds.

5. Utah - Bonus points / max points are preferred in the drawing in most cases.

6. Montana - Bonus points (more names in the hat each year) but anyone "could" draw.

7. Idaho - no points - best odds to draw a sheep tag.

8. Oregon - no points, everyone is equal each year.

9. California - Pref points / odds are better for max point holders.

10. Nevada - bonus points (more names in the hat each year)

11. Washington - bonus point system

And the list goes on..... Its also about knowing the areas to apply for, weapon choice, etc. This is why we do a license / app biz, to help folks who do not know the states, the areas, etc. My post is NOT totally specific, but a general idea of what to expect in each state.

Over the years I have personally drawn tags in numerous states across the west - for some great hunts. But knowing the areas / outfitters / weapon choice can be critical.

One thing is for certain.....you'll never draw if you don't apply!

If we can help you, please email us at globalhunts@aol.com

The guys who say something like "I've played the application game for a long time and have drawn tags" are correct. The problem is they played when the point systems started and were able to take advantage of being "first in line".

It does not work that way any more! Not even close. Today people applying in WY or UT would have to out live every other applicant on their level or ahead of them to get an assured tag. NV and CO still have a chance, but guys are 10+ times ahead of people just starting.

The only way to get to the head of the line today is buy it, have more points than anyone or win the lotto. If ID starts to give points, then you're still out-of-luck because so many people now realize how important points are. There will be 3,000 people with max points and 15 tags a year.....

Still apply, but don't make plans just yet. Or buy your way to the head of the line. I can't see people in WY, UT, NV, CO, AZ, etc... having 68 points. My wager is something will happen to the draws before we reach that point.

..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MC:
The guys who say something like "I've played the application game for a long time and have drawn tags" are correct. The problem is they played when the point systems started and were able to take advantage of being "first in line".

That's closer to the truth than not yet it's not the truth.

I've drawn sheep and moose in Wyoming with less than Max points but I was willing to hunt the more difficult units.

There's the truth.

Zeke

Harder and harder to do as even marginal areas get ton of applications
It’s simply luck of the draw and as it should be

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
That's closer to the truth than not yet it's not the truth.

I've drawn sheep and moose in Wyoming with less than Max points but I was willing to hunt the more difficult units.

There's the truth.

Zeke

Actually, I stated the truth. You were first in line for the tags you drew in Wyoming. You were first in line for those tags because you were able and eligible to apply close to when the point system was started.

Just the same as how I was able to draw a moose tag in WY- but I wouldn't tell someone today that they will have the same chance as I did because it isn't the same game.

While you might call them a more difficult unit, at least we had the choice. Our grandkids will never be first in line for any WY sheep or moose unit-- unless they out live the other applicants. As for Utah, they will never be in the top bonus level unless they out live the other applicants. There are lifetimes worth of people ahead of them.....

..

I have 7 points in Wyoming for sheep. I am 43, and am pretty sure that I will turn 70 before I draw a tag.

I was originally in the first pool of Wyoming applicants, and missed a year thanks to being deployed for Afghanistan, and had to start over. I think this is the second time I have had 7 points.

quote:

Originally posted by MC:

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
That's closer to the truth than not yet it's not the truth.

I've drawn sheep and moose in Wyoming with less than Max points but I was willing to hunt the more difficult units.

There's the truth.

Zeke

Actually, I stated the truth. You were first in line for the tags you drew in Wyoming. You were first in line for those tags because you were able and eligible to apply close to when the point system was started.

Just the same as how I was able to draw a moose tag in WY- but I wouldn't tell someone today that they will have the same chance as I did because it isn't the same game.

While you might call them a more difficult unit, at least we had the choice. Our grandkids will never be first in line for any WY sheep or moose unit-- unless they out live the other applicants. As for Utah, they will never be in the top bonus level unless they out live the other applicants. There are lifetimes worth of people ahead of them.....

..

Guys, I think its understanding each state thoroughly that can be critical. WY for example awards 75% of sheep tags to top pref point holders, but 25% do go into the random draw each year. So yes, without max points you can draw a sheep tag. Odds are always long, but drawing year 1 can / does happen. Random tags are available for sheep / moose every year in WY, but its important to know which units offer them - some don't.

I drew one of the best elk tags in the state of MT just last year....I had only 1 bonus pt for elk in MT and drew one of only 2 tags offered to non-residents. I saw hundreds of elk, and took a 351" bull.

quote:

Originally posted by DIs:
Montana's point system is a joke. Know many people with maximum pts and no tag, but know people that draw with no or few pts. That should not happen.

Its a "bonus" point system, this is exactly how it was designed to work.

I too have max sheep points in MT - 17 in 2018. In simple terms I have 18 names in the hat this year, including this year's app. If for example you have 4 bonus points in 2018 - you will have 5 names in the hat this year.

Its just like a raffle....I have 18 tickets in the bin, you have 5. I might have better odds to win, but you too could one the draw. This way even new applicants "could" draw, but longevity in the application process is awarded with a better chance. Seems a fair way to do it to me?

Wyoming's methodology for awarding tags was fine if you got in on the ground floor.

I have 6 or 7 points for sheep, and the next closest I am to that is AZ, and Nevada.

Montana has a preference point only option available this year, and so does Colorado (finally without the huge upfront fee).

So those are viable options if a guy is young enough.

I still can't say enough about paying someone to help. I really like the features on www.gohunt.com I think it is the best DIY program available, as they have great features to sort the states and units. They publish quite a few "book reports" on western hunting news as well.

I call them book reports, because the lady that writes them does kind of a half ass job of rewriting current news released by firearm companies, state fish and wildlife agencies and the federal government. I wish they would just post a link to the article....

Anyway good resource if you are not going to pay someone to take care of it.

This is how the process works IN ARIZONA. There are no hats involved.


Hunt Draw Process

How does the Big Game Drawing work?

There are 3 phases to the Big Game Drawing – the Bonus Point Pass, the First-Second Choice Pass, and the Third-Fourth-Fifth Choice Pass. Before each of the three passes in the drawing, each application is processed through a random number generator program. One random number for the application plus an additional random number for each group bonus point (which includes the Hunter Education and Loyalty bonus points) is generated for that application. The lowest random number generated for an application is used in the drawing process. An application receives a new random number for each Pass of the Big Game Draw.

Group Bonus Points occur in the Big Game Draw when 2 to 4 applicants apply on 1 hunt application. Group bonus points are calculated by adding the genus bonus points, loyalty bonus point, and hunter education bonus point for each applicant on an application and dividing that total by the number of applicants. The Department shall use the average number of bonus points accumulated by the individuals in the group, rounded to the nearest whole number. If the average has decimal digits equal to or greater than .5, the total will be rounded to the next higher number otherwise it is rounded down.

When an application is read and the hunt choices are checked for available permits, there must be enough permits available in a hunt choice for all applicants on the application, including non-resident caps; if not, the application is passed and the next one is read.

The Big Game Drawing, including the 20% bonus point pass, will be processed as follows:

First Pass (20% Bonus Point)

Twenty percent of authorized hunt permit-tags in each hunt number for deer, antelope, elk, turkey, javelina, and spring bear may be issued in this pass. Twenty percent of the total authorized hunt permit-tags (all hunt numbers combined) for both bighorn sheep and buffalo may be issued. Although 20 percent are available, the 10% nonresident caps are still in effect. (MY NOTE: This is changed for 2018. A max of 5% of the NR cap will be issued during this phase. The other 5% go into the next phases. BUT...there is no guarantee NRs will get the total 10% through all the phases. The 10% merely acts as a limiting factor.)

1. Each valid application is assigned the lowest random number from those generated for that application.

2. The application file for each species is sorted by group bonus points in descending sequence and then by random number within the bonus point groupings.

In the Bonus Pass, the first and second hunt choices for all applications with maximum bonus points are looked at first. If permits are still available from the 20% allocation, then the next lower bonus point category is looked at; and so on, until all of the 20% allocation is issued or until all applications with 1 or more bonus points are read. Applications with zero bonus points will not be included in the 20% Bonus Pass of the Draw.

As each application is read, the first and then second hunt choices are checked to see if there are any permits available as part of the 20% bonus point allocation. If there are enough permits available for each applicant on the application without exceeding the 20% allocation or the nonresident cap, the permits are issued to that application. If not, the next application is read and the first and second hunt choices are checked until the entire application file is read. Any un-issued permits from the "bonus point pass" will be returned to the available permits for each hunt. The Drawing will then continue to the next two passes.

Second Pass (1st and 2nd Hunt Choices)

1. For all valid applications which were unsuccessful in the bonus point pass, new random numbers are generated for each application with the lowest random number being assigned to the application. The same random number process as described above is used.

2. The valid application file for each species is then sorted in random number sequence only.

3. The first valid application (with the lowest random number) is read, checking the first and then the second hunt choices for available hunt permit-tags. If there are enough hunt permit-tags available for either of the choices and for each applicant on the application, without exceeding the nonresident cap when applicable, then the hunt permit-tags are issued. The next valid application in random number sequence is then checked for available hunt permit-tags until the entire file is read.

Third Pass (3rd, 4th, and 5th Hunt Choices)

1. For all applications which were unsuccessful with their first and second choices, new random numbers are generated for each valid application with the lowest random number being assigned to the application. The same random number process as described above is used.

2. The valid application file for each species is again sorted into random number sequence.

3. Each valid application is then read checking the third, then fourth, and then fifth hunt choices for available hunt permit-tags for all applicants on each application (without exceeding the nonresident cap). When hunt permit-tags are available for one of the three choices, they are issued to the application.

4. After the entire file has been read in the third pass, the hunt permit-tag issuance portion of the drawing has been completed. Applicants are then awarded an additional bonus point for each species for which they were unsuccessful with a valid application. The species bonus points for each successful applicant are then zeroed out for the species for which they were issued a hunt permit-tag.

Leftover Permits

Any hunt permit-tags not issued in the above three passes are eligible for the first-come/first¬serve process. Applications are made by mail (or online, if available) and hunt permit-tags are issued to the first individuals who apply for these hunts. In the first-come/first-serve process, a successful applicant retains all accumulated bonus points.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys, I think its understanding each state thoroughly that can be critical. WY for example awards 75% of sheep tags to top pref point holders, but 25% do go into the random draw each year. So yes, without max points you can draw a sheep tag. Odds are always long, but drawing year 1 can / does happen. Random tags are available for sheep / moose every year in WY, but its important to know which units offer them - some don't.

I drew one of the best elk tags in the state of MT just last year....I had only 1 bonus pt for elk in MT and drew one of only 2 tags offered to non-residents. I saw hundreds of elk, and took a 351" bull.

Not sure why you quoted me. You don't need to be a "hunt consultant" to understand the draws. I understand WY and UT just fine (referenced in my post) and never said one couldn't hit the lotto and draw a random permit. I said it is a different game than it was when some of us started years ago.

Your advice of "there is a chance" is fine if one wants to play a lotto. But is it worth $150 each year to apply for a 1 in 200+ chance at a random tag? And only reach the top level pool IF the applicant outlives the other applicants? Will the States' draw systems even be the same in 20 years? Applicants should decide that for themselves.

One thing is certain, applicants starting now in point systems are at a disadvantage never seen before. That is a fact.

Still not sure how a 351" bull plays into the whole discussion, but congrats on the inches if that is how you define success.....

..

quote:

Originally posted by MC:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys, I think its understanding each state thoroughly that can be critical. WY for example awards 75% of sheep tags to top pref point holders, but 25% do go into the random draw each year. So yes, without max points you can draw a sheep tag. Odds are always long, but drawing year 1 can / does happen. Random tags are available for sheep / moose every year in WY, but its important to know which units offer them - some don't.

I drew one of the best elk tags in the state of MT just last year....I had only 1 bonus pt for elk in MT and drew one of only 2 tags offered to non-residents. I saw hundreds of elk, and took a 351" bull.

Not sure why you quoted me. You don't need to be a "hunt consultant" to understand the draws. I understand WY and UT just fine (referenced in my post) and never said one couldn't hit the lotto and draw a random permit. I said it is a different game than it was when some of us started years ago.

Your advice of "there is a chance" is fine if one wants to play a lotto. But is it worth $150 each year to apply for a 1 in 200+ chance at a random tag? And only reach the top level pool IF the applicant outlives the other applicants? Will the States' draw systems even be the same in 20 years? Applicants should decide that for themselves.

One thing is certain, applicants starting now in point systems are at a disadvantage never seen before. That is a fact.

Still not sure how a 351" bull plays into the whole discussion, but congrats on the inches if that is how you define success.....

..

Your post was just an example....nothing more. Really meant for a lot guys that don't understand / know each of the state's options - that's all.

You are 100% right....its a lotto in most cases. Its up to the individual to decide if its worth it to them or not, nothing more. I have been playing so long that I stick with it....but in "some" cases, if one knows specific states / areas, one can draw a badass tag - with few points. Colorado is a prime example of that! I've killed two bulls over 380" and two bucks over 190", from an area that only takes 2 - 4 pts to draw a tag.

You are right again.....starting now puts you at a dis-advantage, with the exception of NM, ID, and OR (no points for sheep in OR, and not points for all species in NM / ID)

I'm a trophy hunter, I want the biggest / best - that's what I enjoy hunting for, others can decide what's best for them. My point with my MT tag was just that.....I drew an exceptional tag with only 1 pt for elk. If others wish to do so - they can too, but always know - odds are long.

I spend roughly $1,500 (non-refundable) per year just hoping / trying to draw tags. To me its worth it, to others - perhaps not? This was not directed "at" you, it was just an example. I do know areas in many states that are easier to draw, but have just as good as odds of killing big/trophy animals as areas that are much harder to draw - its my job! I was simply trying to tell folks that not every good area / tag is impossible to draw....that's just not the case. Sheep tags though....its tough - we all know that.

I was thinking about the problem of point creep, and I had a bit of a solution.

40% of all tags are randomly drawn but points are cubed so if you had 3 points, you would have 27 shots at a tag. If you have 20 preference points you would have 8000. This gives quite a bit of preference to seniority in points.

The next 40% would be 1 point per applicant. So anyone could draw.

The other 20% would go to youth under the age of 17. Meaning you had to be 17 during the entire hunting season. Single point per kid.

This helps with youth hunter recruitment. If a kid can't hunt, because he can't draw a tag he is not going to get interested in hunting.

In Wyoming's case where the majority of the tags are tied up in a points program with points creep being the name of the game this could help turn it around.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by DIs:
Montana's point system is a joke. Know many people with maximum pts and no tag, but know people that draw with no or few pts. That should not happen.

Its a "bonus" point system, this is exactly how it was designed to work.

I too have max sheep points in MT - 17 in 2018. In simple terms I have 18 names in the hat this year, including this year's app. If for example you have 4 bonus points in 2018 - you will have 5 names in the hat this year.

Its just like a raffle....I have 18 tickets in the bin, you have 5. I might have better odds to win, but you too could one the draw. This way even new applicants "could" draw, but longevity in the application process is awarded with a better chance. Seems a fair way to do it to me?

That's how I thought Montana's system worked, except now your points are squared so your 18 points would jump to 324 tickets in the bin, the guy with 5 points would have 25 tickets in the bin, and the first time applicant would only have 1 ticket in the bin. You just need the winning ticket.

Fellows:

Just an odd note to dispel the odds on the sheep permits. I killed a Dall and a Stone in the latter years of the 1970's. I continued to apply for a Mt tag but no joy.

Finally, in 2000 I applied for a Desert tag in Az and got lucky on my first application. So I applied for a Big Horn tag in Idaho(first application) in 2002, luck again!

It seems that one must hold ones tongue just right when applying for sheep tags and of course be a clean liver!

cpaer, You suck!!!

Congratulations on your slam!

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I was thinking about the problem of point creep, and I had a bit of a solution.

40% of all tags are randomly drawn but points are cubed so if you had 3 points, you would have 27 shots at a tag. If you have 20 preference points you would have 8000. This gives quite a bit of preference to seniority in points.

The next 40% would be 1 point per applicant. So anyone could draw.

The other 20% would go to youth under the age of 17. Meaning you had to be 17 during the entire hunting season. Single point per kid.

This helps with youth hunter recruitment. If a kid can't hunt, because he can't draw a tag he is not going to get interested in hunting.

In Wyoming's case where the majority of the tags are tied up in a points program with points creep being the name of the game this could help turn it around.

Ya, I think there's definitely solutions like this that could help. Its just getting everyone who makes the decisions to help figure out what that is?

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Originally posted by buffybr:

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

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Originally posted by DIs:
Montana's point system is a joke. Know many people with maximum pts and no tag, but know people that draw with no or few pts. That should not happen.

Its a "bonus" point system, this is exactly how it was designed to work.

I too have max sheep points in MT - 17 in 2018. In simple terms I have 18 names in the hat this year, including this year's app. If for example you have 4 bonus points in 2018 - you will have 5 names in the hat this year.

Its just like a raffle....I have 18 tickets in the bin, you have 5. I might have better odds to win, but you too could one the draw. This way even new applicants "could" draw, but longevity in the application process is awarded with a better chance. Seems a fair way to do it to me?

That's how I thought Montana's system worked, except now your points are squared so your 18 points would jump to 324 tickets in the bin, the guy with 5 points would have 25 tickets in the bin, and the first time applicant would only have 1 ticket in the bin. You just need the winning ticket.

Yes, that's 100% correct - I was just explaining it in simple terms. Regardless, its always gonna be tough to draw a darn sheep tag....unfortunately!

Mike D,
Your now a Idaho resident, your best chance is in Idaho, sheep in the Owhyee, and Moose around Yellowstone..I know the sheep country well and recommend POison Creek drainage, not up on Moose hunting, but have seen moose while hunting elk and fishing many times up around Jackson across the line into Idaho..and up around the southern reaches of Yellowstone river and the many lakes in that area...

Being a resident really increases your chances of a draw it seems...

I killed a moose in WY. I killed a bighorn & mtn goat in CO. I'm glad I'm out of the points game.