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I am placing this into discussion, just to get opinions and possibly actual reasons for peoples attitudes in regards to the use of "Bait" when hunting. What instigated this was the following response made by AR member Russ Gould from Oregon, in a duscussion about Feral Hog hunting.
Now I have seen this basic arguement brought up numerous times on numerous forums, and have yet to see anyone give a really adequate answer, in fact these discussions usually end up in a "Free-For-All", with people throwing insults around, yet No One seems to be able to sufficiently justify why they have the opinions that they do. My questions are: 1. Why is there a difference, real or supposed, between baiting by whatever method, for Black Bears or the Big Cats and Hoofed Stock of any kind? 2. What is the real difference between hunting a spin feeder/protein feeder, a food plot or agricultural field, a water source or mineral/salt lick whether natural or man made? 3. How many would willing hunt one species over a bait and not another and why, say black bear as compared to deer or feral hog? 4. How many that seem to have an issue with hunting over a bait, have never done it? Even the rocks don't last forever. | ||
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The reason the law doesn't want it done is because it will deplete the resource - with some animals, birds and maybe not with others and so on. I'm fine with them being the ones to make that decision. If I don't like it, they want to hear from hunters as we are their "customers" and it works on the "squeaky wheel" principle. If they get enough opinions they have been known to change the law after consulting with their biology people. They go thru a process on that every year with public input invited. And then there's the perception of sportsmanship as an element. A lot of us want it as close to a wild hunt as possible. Then there are those who say what difference does it make what the animal or bird is doing when they get it. On some level just about all hunting has to do with "bait" since where to hunt is mostly food related. It's just a question of how much and what's legal. | |||
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I know I'll want to beat myself in the morning for getting into this thread, but what the heck...it won't be the first time.  1. To me, there is NO difference. Baiting any of them alters their natural habits. For the most part, it's like giving a kid his choice of pablum or ice cream. Guess which one gets picked? 2. Same for this one for the most part. The "natural" stuff would be a bit different, simply because it is natural. 3. I have hunted several species -- bear, deer (archery in MI), feral hogs -- over bait, but only once for each one. That was enough. I find it boring and no more productive -- for me anyway -- than glassing/still hunting. That's why I don't hunt from treestands or blinds either. 4. See above Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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That’s funny....seems some people even disagree about bait and fish.....nuts!! Some say bait, some say artificial. Some say YES!!! to fishing for catfish in a private pond, but NO!!! to hunting a high fence. If it is legal....I will use it....that’s just me. People are weird. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I agree with Ted. If it is legal, if it is the local custom, give it a try. You may like it, you may not. No one is forcing anyone to hunt one way or another. Is baiting any different than hunting over a waterhole where game has to come to water? I'm not sure I know the answer, but it sure gives you something to think about. | |||
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This is a good start. Tony, and Ted, Many Thanks for your replies. Shack, this is not a question of laws or legalities. I see people that will willing admit to hunting black bear while watching a bait, but feel that doing the same thing with white tails, and in Russ Goulds statement,feral hogs, is totally wrong. Conversely, I have had fellow Texans, get completely irate about the mention of hunting black bear over a bait. Tony, I agree with most of what you stated, however in Texas, we don't have that much Public Land available for hunting, and while what little there is, does prohibit baiting of any kind, all of the Private Land surrounding said Public Land, in most cases, is heavily baited. As for black bear, while doing spot and stalk would suit me better, my goal is to kill a bear, and it is well proven that the odds of doing that are better when watching a bait site. Ted people are definitely weird. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I'm with you Ted. If it is legal, who cares! Just because I may not agree to do certain activities, doesn't mean I should judge others that do within the limits of the law. It seems we get different defining lines regardless of the activity or method of take, based upon opinions. It is really no different than those who like driving Fords versus those who will drive nothing but a Chevy, or a Dodge. I could care less what truck brand you drive or the method you decide to shoot a hog, deer, or whatever as long as it is legal. Just enjoy your time outdoors! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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On the contrary in regards to private land in TX. It's a just a matter of finding the RIGHT private land, as I did on my two hunts in Nov. and Dec. In case you missed that thread, I took two very nice bucks and never once sat over a feeder or in a blind. We hunted just like I hunt Coues deer in AZ; glass, find a buck and put on a stalk. RE: black bears Ironically, the only time I hunted them over bait in Ontario, I didn't kill one on my license. The only thing I got was a bunch of ticks crawling all over me every day.  I did wind up putting the final kill shot into one the camp owner's grandson wounded, though. The kid shot the bear over a barrel filled with suckers, and he got so excited he jacked the rest of his ammo on to the ground. I heard the shot, and knowing he was somewhat inexperienced, walked over there. After he told me what happened, I found the blood trail and had the kid lead. When the bear jumped up about 50 yards in front of us, I yelled for him to shoot. The gun went click. When I told him to load another round, he said he left them back where he had been sitting. So I put one of my 140-gr. bullets in it to end its suffering. I shot my OWN first black bear many years ago in AZ -- no bait, no dogs. The next three were killed in BC, where baiting is illegal. All were spot-&-stalk. The outfitter I book with there goes 100% every year. How much better odds do you need??  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Tony, I concede the fact that places can be found in Texas to do Spot and Stalk, but from my experience they are few and far between. Too many liability issues. Personnally, I prefer Spot and Stalk over hunting a bait, but with animals such as feral hogs, odds of killing something are really low when compared to hunting over a bait. I guess I am mainly interested in reading why the hunting of one or two specoes over a bait, is accepted by some folks, while doing the exact same thing with another or other totally non-related species is looked down? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I know one guy who brags about the big buck he gets every so often on private land.He fails to mention the pile of corn and apples within 50 yards of his stand. Of course,if you didnt know he was baiting,you would think he was a damn good hunter. ****************************************************************** SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM *********** | |||
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If its legal,I could care less about your method.Yes I bait Bear and Deer.I also am having good results with food plots. | |||
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I've pondered about this one for a long time. It's nice to see that no one has gone on a rant yet on this. I think a lot my feelings about hunting over bait, food plots and water are tied to the rules I learned as a kid. I was taught that to do any of those things put the game at a disadvantage. 'It ain't right, boy.' rings in my head. I can't get past that. I've tried them all where it was legal and commonly done, a couple times. The voices won't go away! I've generally been more successful when hunting over bait, food plots, water, and shooting from the vehicle in Africa, so it seemed to be one of those self fulfilling prophecies. I've also been much more successful deer hunting from tree stands. Like the ringing in my ears, the voices won't stop. Not saying that my Dad, Uncle and other mentors were right or wrong. But the end result is that it is not as satisfying for me. So, I just don't do those kinds of hunts anymore. But to each his own. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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In Alaska, you don't have thousands of orange hunters wandering through the woods 1st day of bear season; you won't see many bear if not over bait. Come to think of it, most bear I see not from stand, are when I'm riding down the road or out on the river. Ever shoot anything from an 18 foot boat on a river? Those cross hairs are all over the place. You want to see grizz, just hang a 5 gal bucket of salmon eggs in a spruce, shoot some holes in bottom, and wait; you'll see bear. We have way too many bear up here, take 80% of moose calf production every spring. No limits on blk bear & in my area you can hunt grizz over bait. They need to be reduced if moose are to survive in any appreciable numbers. | |||
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I'd have to say it boils down to preference. Have I personally hunted over bait, no. That's not to say that I wouldn't if it was legal where I was hunting. I have also been changing my opinions on some things as of late. I had always been against hunting out of a ground blind but a few years back a friend bought me a blind for Christmas, set it up the week before the rifle season and wouldn't you know opening day was a nasty rain storm. Never was so happy to be in out of the rain. So I say to each their own. | |||
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 Me. Because it's illegal here in PA. The issue I have is, it's perfectly legal to crawl up an old apple tree with drops all around and hunt to your heart's content. But roundup some of those same apples onto a pile with your boot and you're hunting over bail, subject to a fine and loss of your hunting privileges for 1 year. Some laws are just dumb.I'm surprised Russ Gould didn't rise to your bait. | |||
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Then I'm not the one to answer your question because I think it's all too boring, no matter the results. But if it floats someone's boat to do it, have fun. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Onefunzr2, wasn't meaning for my mentionong of Russ Gould's name to be some form of bait. I was just surprised somewhat, that a person with the type of credentials he has listed in his signature:
would make such a remark since many or most leopards and some lions are shot over a bait. I am just interested into why he would make such a statement, especially if he has killed either a leopard or a lion over a bait. As I have said, it is strange to me, that while some folks do not like or believe in hunting anything over a bait, others seem to have clearly defined lines concerning what could or should be baited. I have been in conversations with fellow Texans, that spend hundreds/thousands of $$$ annually keeping corn and protein feeders filled on their leases/ranches for deer and hog hunting, yet mention the idea of hunting a bear over a bait and they become almost irrational about how wrong that is. I really don't understand that mind set. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And this we can readily agree on.  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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I think a lot of people that raise a fuss over the baiting issue are thinking in terms of their home ground only, and judge others by what they do/are allowed to do. I think a lot of them have never hunted Texas either. Most of these discussions involve Texas vs everybody else. I hunted in east Texas quite a bit when my oldest daughter lived there. Were it not for bait, you would never see a deer in that brush, I'm not sure how they get around in that stuff. Tony mentioned spot and stalk, where I live, that simply won't work, too many fences/landowners. We can hunt over food plots, but not bait, which is a bit silly. I think a lot of the disagreements are based on being a bit short sighted. Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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I'm not sure which he's (seemingly) appalled at; the bait part or the after dark part? Perhaps both. | |||
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Personally, I've never hunted anything over bait. Never desired to either. But, if it is legal, I've got no issue with it. I do however have to ask why you would need to bait anything anywhere. I've hunted an awfully lot of diffifernt game animals in a lot of different places and have never failed to be able to get a shot if I was willing to work hard enough. I've read many comments about how thick the brush is and how you would never get a shot if you don't bait etc... To that I have to ask how the Native Americans managed to always fill their larders? They didn't bait and they didn't starve. They figured out a way to take game. Using that as a basis for consideration, I wonder how many people actually have tried hunting the thick brush and how many just automatically claim it can't be done. I have spent the last couple of years hunting the river bottoms in northwest Florida. I've never seen anyplace else that compares when it comes to thick, nasty places. But, I've never needed to bait and have taken deer every season. I've had to work at it a few times, but by the end of the season, I had venison in the freezer. So, if baiting is legal and you want to do it, knock yourself out. But, as long as I can get deer by still hunting or spot and stalking, I'll pass on it due to personal preferences. Cheers | |||
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Mea Culpa. I've hunted water holes in arid country, am now thinking it may not be worthy. This year I think I'll take a camera to the water hole and hunt the ridges away from it. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Don't be naive. Indians used various methods to get food. Some set forests on fire. Some used traps (for wild game and wildlife that we can't legally trap today). Some used bait (i.e. rice grains) to kill/trap wild turkeys (They even raised turkeys). If we had no game laws today and could kill anything we wanted to at anytime, I bet we would be very successful at the game we may pursue year-round. Indians did starve from time to time, to think otherwise, is ludicrous. | |||
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CrazyHorse, I've done the pig thing in Texas, a coupla times. Considering the number of feral hogs, down there, I see no reason to having any restrictions on hunting them, anyway you want. I've hunted bear over bait, in both Maine and Ontario, and never got one. Guess my take, is if its legal, don't worry about it. As far as Russ's remarks, well, I've been around here for a number of years, and have seen him make ahh... remarks similar to that on a number of occasions. I'd blow it off. Mad Dog | |||
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Hey Craz.....you and Russ have any history? ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Hey Mac, is driving a herd of buffalo over a cliff considered "fair chase"?? to answer the question: If it's legal, I don't have a problem with it. But it would be my last choice of hunting. Not for any moral reason but like Tony said, it can get boooooring. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I think the terrain and circumstances should be considered; for example Northern Minnesota, Ontario, etc are so heavily wooded with so many lakes, sloughs and streams that it's almost impossible to hunt bears any other way that by baiting. This baiting tradition has become a large part of the sport of bear hunting in these areas. My experience bear hunting has been all over bait. I don't feel it's any less sporting than any other type of hunting, such as stand hunting deer, spot and stalk elk, etc. Shotgun | |||
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Time and place. I've done it for deer in the past over in WI, and took what I could. If I lived in Texas, and the hog issue was at hand, I'd do it there too. I live in MN, and it's illegal for all but bear here. Don't hunt bear, so I don't bait at all. To each his own, properly utilized, baiting has its' spot in the sun. I won't tell you what to do in any case, brother. That's your call. "Shoot hard, boys." | |||
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I was hunting hogs in Cotulla Texas while still in school. When it started getting dark i saw a bucket on top of a tall tripod move, then rattle and kick out something. a bunch of deer came out of the sage and started eating. Was the first time I ever saw a feeder. I think it largely depends on how a person was raised, how he grew up hunting as to whether hunting over bait or crops planted just for game is allright. My dad would not let me use live bait for catching fish as a kid because he did not think it was sporting. I don't have a problem with people hunting over bait, but I wouldn't do it. If I did, I sure has heck would not brag about what I killed over bait. A lot of folks around here used to go to Canda and shoot bears over machines that dispensed donuts. They seemed to justify the practice by the cost of going up to Canada and the disappointment if they came home empty handed. They never did have the donut machine in the trophy shot. | |||
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Like others have said, Minnesota is going to be tough to hunt bears without bait. With the exception of wolves, everything else can be easily and successfully hunted without bait. Wolves and bears I consider varmints and see no problem with killing them over bait. In the places where there are a lot of bears and wolves the woods are thick enough that spot and stalk is out of the question. Bears and wolves are both smart enough and wary of people enough that bait is the only real option other than hounds. Deer are easy enough that bait is unnecessary. Especially the young dumb ones (the tasty ones). I hunt deer for meat and have had enough nasty bucks to eat that I don't need to do that again. The people that want a big buck are welcome to bait them too for my money. Just leave the eating deer alone. | |||
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If its a legal way of hunting, I have no problems with it. I have done it in the past, present and will do it in the futur. With that said, I PERSONALLY cant seem to get past hunting bears over the bait they use. Hunting over cookies, donuts and bread seems weird to me, and I dont want to do it that way. If it was corn, I PERSONALLY probably would do it. Wierd I know! W.  | |||
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How do you bait whitetails with corn when your stand is next to a farmers corn field????? | |||
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Just curious. What are peoples opnions on suplemental feeding. I know that on my place we had a few deer several years ago and now that we are feeding protien and corn our population has dramaticly climbed. I personaly try and set up for hunting in between a food source and a bedding area. Some times that food source is a feeder. If you can spot and stalk our north west texas deer with a bow you are a better hunter than i am. Those who pound their swords into plowshares will be plowing for those of us who don't | |||
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Here's an instance where "your mileage might vary." http://forums.accuratereloadin...3411043/m/9241068131 Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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When I was growing up in the 1930s, local farmers routinely used saltlicks (usually put out for cattle in the pastures) -and moved them into either the edge of the woods or into the woods when deer season arrived. In my state of NY, the game wardens (as they were called in those days) usually ignored that it might look like "bait" for deer. The times were hard and while farmers were killing their deer aometimes in the Fall (actually in the Spring usually) I never was sure that the deer were all that eager for salt -once the first shot of opening day went off! As a hunter over bait for black bear in north central Ontario I never found bait hunting to be some kind of shooting fish in a barrel. Fact. (I saw yearling wolves, in a "starve" period who would approach the bait - and still not come to it -they had no idea I was nearby but they obeyed the instinct of a wolf not to touch meat they had not killed. I saw a lion bait stand in Africa -and told my PH I would never try to shoot such a magnificent animal over bait. Yet I was willing to shoot a bear over bait. I guess it really comes down to a matter of taste -as the old lady said when she kissed the cow. | |||
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Haven't posted much lately, been elsewhere, but this topic comes up from time to time. The majority of my hunting has been done in Texas with a few hunts in Louisiana and an elk/muledeer hunt in Colorado and Montana. My east Texas hunting began around 1961 and ended in 2007 with the sale of our "farm" near Cut & Shoot. Hunted low fenced Hill Country ranches between 3,000 and 50,000 acres. We usually lease a pasture of 2,000 acres or so. Been doing this since 1999. Between my son and I we can legally take 10 white tail deer per year plus exotics, hogs, turkey, dove, quail and varmints. I would classify myself as more of a meat hunter than a trophy hunter. I've yet to score any of the deer I've shot. I hunt hogs and deer over bait(spin cast feeders, corn on the road, etc). I also snare and trap hogs. I call varmints and turkey with hand and electronic callers. So, a couple of thoughts. I believe the difference between humans and animals is intellect. If you are using the intellect, or the ability to think and plan, to a degree that separates men from beasts. A predator animal will stake out a water hole or lodge himself so as to take advantage of prey. Unless you are locating prey animals, chasing it down own your two legs and using brute strength to dispatch the animal, you are using the intellect endowed by your creator. Even then you are using intellect to a degree. Setting up over a water hole or along a known travel corridor, between a bedding area and a food source, be it natural or artificial, seems to do the same thing as baiting. It is using one's intellect to increase one's chances of taking game. When sitting on the side of a hill do you use binoculars or a spotting scope. If so, aren't you using the product of man's intellect to increase your chances of taking game. When you hunt during the rut are you not using your intellect to increase the odds in your favor? When I hunted in Montana, it was in an area adjacent to Yellowstone park. When the ice got deep enough in the high mountains elk would have to come down to graze. The hunting there was a migration type hunt. Literally hundreds of elk would come down. My understanding is that hunters would line the travel corridor and take as many as 50 elk along about a 1/2 mile travel corridor during a single day. While there I did take a mule deer buck. I passed on three bucks better than what I ended up taking. These I jumped up while walking downhill through broken timber. In each instance, the mule deer bucks stood up, stood there and watched. I could have taken a standing shot on all three of them. The buck I did take was spotted by my guide standing with 4 or 5 does about 300 yds. or so down the mountain. It was the last day of season. I was going to pass on him but the guide stated that his grandma sure could use some deer meat (and I'm sure he wanted the tip I'd promised if I took a buck). We rode up on horses to within 125 yds. I got off my horse, untied my shooting sticks. Took off my back pack. Took the scope covers off my rifle. Sat down on a big rock. Set up the shooting sticks. A couple of does were between me and the buck. I waited for them to move and then shot him at 110 yds. I can say this, no self respecting white tail deer would have waited near 10 minutes to get shot, under a feeder or not. Open country, fair chase, no feeder, yet as close as I've ever come to feelin' like I'd sinned with a rifle. We do employ the use of spin cast feeders. I can't recall one good buck that I've taken in the last 10 years or so under one of the feeders when he was shot. Typically what happens is does and yearlings will show up at the feeders. Mature bucks are almost never seen except during the rut. In fact at my east Texas property, I had three game feeders set up for three years continuously. In three years I did not have one picture of a buck during the daytime. Only at nite between say 9 pm and 4:30 in the morning. The last three years the mast and acorns have been so plentiful that I think in got in 15 hunts before I saw my first deer under the feeder. Consequently I see it as a more of a local custom as to whether one takes game over bait. I do however have a problem with the following scenario. A high fenced pen of limited acreage where game animals have been artificially inserted, and food sources are limited to that supplied on a supplemental basis. There, animals have no choice but to frequent feed sites in order to survive. Folks there sit in blinds or trucks, guides pick out the animal to be "harvested". Even then I do not have a problem with folks taking "game" animals in that way. I do have a problem with calling that "hunting". GWB | |||
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I have no problem with baiting black bears in particular. First, imagine hunting them in the thickness of central/northern Idaho without bait! Second, a spot and stalk hunt probably yields a much more variable success rate over time. Surely the job of wildlife managers would be damned tough if not impossible if they couldn't reasonably predict a harvest rate from year to year and therefore set quotas. Third, given say a 5% success rate of spot and stalk (compared to say a 90% success rate on bait), to harvest any reasonable quota in thick country would likely mean sending hundreds of guys into the thick woods and then you get into the safety issues of that. Fourth, I imagine the Elk in the area would be a bit miffed at the unpredictable or low harvest rates of spot and stalk bear hunts. Fifth, on top of the general management issues that are improved with baiting, it also gives the opportunity for a hunter to pick and choose his animal. A spot and stalk hunt in the thick stuff will likely lead to most hunters shooting the first bear they can while a baited hunt will likely lead to hunters waiting for that big old boar to come walking in. | |||
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Many Thanks for the story Tony and all the replies from everyone else. This hunt coming up, is a present to myself for my 60th. birthday. I have had bear licenses in Colorado twice and Newfoundland once. My intentions are to kill at least one bear. hopefully two, this time around. I intend on killing one with a Winchester 1894 Chief Crazy Horse Commerative in 38-55 and if things works out, the second will be killed with a Model 1907 Winchester 351 Self Loader, built in 1923. Lora and I will get to see Idaho, do some trout fishing and hunt Blue Grouse on this trip. I just can't see why folks make a difference between species on the baiting issue, but I guess that is what makes all of us human. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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to each his own if I don't like or agree with something I won't do it | |||
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