One of my other hobbies is that I like to play guitar and one of the forums I vist is guitar related. They have a 'General Discussion' area where mostly non-guitar related stuff is posted. There are quite a few gun guys over there and even a few hunters so I thought I would post a pic of Greg R's Grizz that he got in Alaske a couple weeks ago. I shoulda known that I was going to get alot of flak from the college age 'artsy' folk over. Here is the link.....Any other points I can throw at them that hasn't been discussed? The poster by the name of 'Zhuhr' is not helping me much....seems more like an outlaw than a hunter.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?p=135...posted=1#post1352291

Sadly, you're probably not going to get anywhere with them. These kind of people with 'no predatory instinct' just cannot grasp that idea that they live in a happy shiny world created by stronger, rougher men than they are. If their ancestors wouldn't have killed the beasts, cleared the land, built the cities, etc - they would not even be here to criticize the very actions that enable them to live their sheltered grocery store lives. They are so completely removed from having (or wanting) to produce their own food, shelter, and safety they have no concept or frame of reference for you to work in. I've tried it myself. Until they need to fend for themselves, they will not understand. Even if we simply do it by choice rather than necessity, we can still value what it means. It's something they can't.

quote:

Originally posted by the_captain:
Sadly, you're probably not going to get anywhere with them. These kind of people with 'no predatory instinct' just cannot grasp that idea that they live in a happy shiny world created by stronger, rougher men than they are. If their ancestors wouldn't have killed the beasts, cleared the land, built the cities, etc - they would not even be here to criticize the very actions that enable them to live their sheltered grocery store lives. They are so completely removed from having (or wanting) to produce their own food, shelter, and safety they have no concept or frame of reference for you to work in. I've tried it myself. Until they need to fend for themselves, they will not understand. Even if we simply do it by choice rather than necessity, we can still value what it means. It's something they can't.

Captain , amaizing how you put that thought in writeing. Excelent!

Captain,

Very well thought out and articulated....thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by the_captain:
Sadly, you're probably not going to get anywhere with them. These kind of people with 'no predatory instinct' just cannot grasp that idea that they live in a happy shiny world created by stronger, rougher men than they are. If their ancestors wouldn't have killed the beasts, cleared the land, built the cities, etc - they would not even be here to criticize the very actions that enable them to live their sheltered grocery store lives. They are so completely removed from having (or wanting) to produce their own food, shelter, and safety they have no concept or frame of reference for you to work in. I've tried it myself. Until they need to fend for themselves, they will not understand. Even if we simply do it by choice rather than necessity, we can still value what it means. It's something they can't.

very good

the_captain, WELL SAID! Very articulate! You bring a gentleman's nature to the sport that we do.

Madgoat: would that perhaps include not blasting other hunters, from other parts of the country who might not hunt in EXACTLY the same way you do?

Actually it's been a rather civilized discussion so far. But it is obvious that there are those out there who do not understand us.

Madgoat, as near as I can see you disagree with everyone that doesn't see things "your" way. Hunters or not. You probably cause more rifts among hunters than PETA and Defenders of Wildlife put together.

Damn....what kind of rift did I stir up here!?!?!

Grouchy, naw... I actually am quite entertained by your drivel. If you don't like Wyoming, I guess you could always go back to wherever you came here from.

TXPO,

I've got a saying for what you did on that guitar site.

I call it dropping a big old reality turd into a sensitive new age punch bowl.

It sure will get the conversations going but in the end nobody can ever drink from that punch bowl again without having a second thought about the stench of reality.

I drop trou and squat over the sensitivity bowl every chance I get.

Hey

Madgoat, Cal,

Why don't you guys take your personal BULLSHIT somewhere else like PM's or E-mails. It's pretty damned impolite to do this on someone else's thread.

You are correct in the fact that there aren't many natives left MG. I sure wouldn't have figured you for one. I will openly apologize for confusing you with a move in. It's just that you act like one.
As for me I'm fourth generation. From Kaycee actually, so I have about the same use for a CCCS as you. But I live here now. But I guess at least I'm not afraid to tell where I'm from or who I am. I try to avoid the cowardace of having to hide behind a screen name. My family ranched in the Kaycee area since the late 1800s. Ever by chance hear of the E.O. Taylor big game winter range. That was my great granddad, and a contribution to your public land hunting and habitat. What great thing has you family done, maybe get drunk at a elk foundation banquet? Thats what most residents call donating to the cause of helping habitat. LOL! My grandad and dad let resident hunters in forever. Blue Creek Ranch Co. If your third generation, I have probably picked up some of you or your family's trash that you left behind. Or fixed fence that you tore down, or closed gates and gathered cattle that got out because you left them open. Or seen the damage you did driving all over hell. My dad finaly started locking gates in the late 80s just because his generosity was abused so much. But since he had no oil wells, gas wells, government subsidies and made little or no income from hunting he started selling off tracts of land during the years of bad cattle prices and no income. It sold to rich oil people, Korean bankers and the like. So in the long run the resident hunter has done 90% of this to themselves. And I had to find another way to make a living. No problem! I do many things, outfitting a few hunters being one of them. Us Wyoming boys are tough and we will find a way to make a living and feed our families. But you still have plenty of overcrowded public land to hunt on. Hope you enjoy! As for me being an outfitter, I provide a service. You don't have to use it, but some choose to. I don't like Burger King and don't eat there. But I don't run around telling you not to eat there because of the "baaad" things they do. The oufitters and non resident hunters bring more to this state and out wonderful G&F dept than residents do by about 10 fold. So thank us that your fees are as low as they are. What is it that you do for a living that is so benificial to our wonderful state? What did you contribute in your working years. Let me know so I can pick it apart and tell you what a sorry ass you are for doing what you do. I try not to lump all resident hunters in the same category. I try to get along, but you guys make it tough. I let as many doe hunters on as I can get on every property that I have. I let turkey and bird hunters on any time. And I get along great with about all the guys that ask permission to do one thing or another. I have let numerous residents bring thier first time hunters (boys or girls) on for a BUCK hunt. Can you believe that an OUTFITTER would do that? And I catch 10 or 12 trespassers every year. Guys that know damn well where they are and what they are doing. The ones that really thrill me are the ones that have thier kids WITH them while they are breaking the law. I have no idea how many I don't catch, but it's quite a few judging by tire tracks and gut piles. What kind of tires are on your truck MG?

Boo hoo Cal, sorry that hunters ruined your life and they are the reason why your folks lost their place.

Sad thing is, that deep down you really do believe you're doing a "good service". Don't you realize that 98% of hunters in this state don't use an outfitter? So why is all the public land crowded? BECAUSE OF FOLKS LIKE YOU! THey have no where else to go because everything is leased up. Unless you got the cash, you're hosed! Keep on lining your pockets Cal...you're killing the regular Joe. And believe me, there are a lot more of us than your paying clientele. Tell me, where are the new, up and coming hunters going to go? THe public land, because they don't have the $3000 necessary to pay you to kill a shittly little mule deer or a 12" antelope.

You can sit there and try to pass the blame. I'll admit, most hunters are slobs who don't care about the resource or other hunters/landowners. But your long winded diatribe about "what it is you do" is just plane pathetic. There is no actual wildlife management done on your lease...none. IF you actually think you're managing the antelope, tell me why so many died this past winter along HWY 59 south of Gillette? That country had a pissy little winter...it is called an over abundance of animals, and killing your dozen on 30000 isn't doing anyone (the rancher, the regular hunter, the antelope) any favors, except making your pockets green.

You're nothing more than a wildlife pimp.

MG

quote:

Originally posted by TXPO:

Here is the link.....Any other points I can throw at them that hasn't been discussed? The poster by the name of 'Zhuhr' is not helping me much....seems more like an outlaw than a hunter.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?p=135...posted=1#post1352291

This, from SKULLKRUSHER?

>>Maybe I'm the odd one, but I don't think hunting bears is all that cool.<<

What kind of Skulls does he Krush? Reminds me somehow of the scene in "Lion in Winter" where the king throws his son's buddy out a window.

MadG, Apparently your reading comprehension is about 2nd grade or so. I never blamed hunting for the loss of anything. I named several factors that were just the times that were. Now it is a little different and you can generate some income from hunting. God forbid that a rancher figures out a way to make a living off of his land! LOL! Surely you understand a free enterprise system? Some people buy land and put Mini marts or hotels on it to make money and some buy land and run cattle and hunting operations. And then people that choose to can use those services if they choose. I can't believe that the concept is that hard for you to grasp. By the way, once again, what is it that you do for a living? Are you so ashamed of it that you can't tell us? If you want to rant and rave at someone why don't you pick on our beloved G&F dept? High Priced, look into some commisioners tags, now there is something out of reach to the working man! I can also find fault in the fact that they won't run a late season doe hunt for whitetail deer and antelope also. I would love to let every resident I could come kill some does of both species if the G&F were smart enough to run a season that didn't conflict with my paying hunters. As it is I have to run doe hunts at the same time and it is a royal pain. And most of the residents are busy buck hunting somewhere else so they don't get to come during the regular season anyway. If they had a late season for does it would work better for everyone. Ever think of any thing like that? A solution that may actually work. You claim that I think someone owes me a living, but apparently you think someone that owns private land owes you a place to hunt? How does that work? I really don't understand your position. What is your solution and what is it that private land owners should do with their land. Open it to a free for all for all resident hunters? Why? If outfitters are the problem then what is the solution?

quote:

High Priced, look into some commisioners tags, now there is something out of reach to the working man!

Yea, the money generated from these licenses goes back into habitat projects. A regular Joe can draw these licenses as well, it just may take time. Do you give any of your $$ from paying clients back to the resource?

quote:

I can also find fault in the fact that they won't run a late season doe hunt for whitetail deer and antelope also.

You mean to tell me that 31 days of doe antelope hunting (23&24), when hunters can get 4 doe/fawn tags a piece isn't enough??? Won't your paying clients kill a doe? Are they too good? Why don't you let them kill 4 does for free if they hunt a buck...besides the fact that they can kill 2 in those areas as well. Heck, ol Mark wants to charge them for it!!!


As far as a "solution" to the outfitter/regular Joe dilemma.

1. Most landowners graze on some portion of public land (everyone's land) to make a living. I would let them graze for free on gov. land, if they open up the same amount of acreage on their land to allow hunters access. Heck, huntes should demand access to THEIR public land!

2. No government incentives or payments for landowners if they don't allow some (not unlimited mind you, but some) public access (yea, that is TAXPAYER money going to help them out...do you expect the taxpayers to bail you out Cal when business goes to shit?).

3. Make it illegal for outfitters to guide on public land. If the hunting is so crappy here like you claim, you wouldn't need to waste time on these pieces of land now would you?

These are just a few thoughts off the top of my head...
MG

I like posting on forums where it will create some controversy. It's fun.

Mad G, Your not too far off actually. I do have alot of guys shoot does. I have never charged a penny to date to kill a doe and have encouraged everyone that came to do so. Some kill one or two and some kill 3 or 4. I did tell Mark last year that for this year the first two does were going to be free and I was going to have to charge a little for the next two. On a 4 doe deal I end up with alot of time tied up in hunting and taking care of that many. I know all about the public land argument and can see both sides. Hunters expect access, and I don't blame them. But, you can't expect someone to give up their private land rights and be forced to allow access across private land. Land trades or access trades need to be made to allow more access for everyone to large chunks of landlocked public. I have always thought along those lines. As for commish tags, bullshit. The G&F is a big business with too much administration, too many secretaries, and too much beaurocracy. The amount of that money that actually ends up doing anything for "habitat" is minimal. Most of those tags are given out to organizations that have nothing to do with wildlife and they reap the profits. You know as well as I do that very little of that money ends up back on the ground. What happened to the deal that the Two Dot tried? They would allow access for one resident, for every non-resident tag that the G&F allowed them. I thought that was a win win. But you guys shot it down. It doesn't affect me over here, because we have plenty of tags. By listening to you, I know that you have some good public land areas that you hunt. I know they are out there also. I hunt some of them myself. (Personally). But for the average resident, or unguided non resident, the majority aren't going to do the work to find and hunt in those areas. So what I am refering to is the areas like the N. Grasslands that literally get pounded to a pulp. I wouldn't reccomend that hunting to anyone, would You? On alot of stuff you're really not that far off of what I think personally. I just don't agree with the repeated attacks. But as you can tell, it really doesn't bother me to debate these deals. Oh, and I mentioned some of what my family and myself have done for hunting in Wyoming. I never got a reply as to what you had done? You just keep on bringing up new stuff and avoiding most of the questions that I posed to you.

You want to know what I do for hunting? I contribute hundreds of hours of my time each year, as well as a pile of my money. I give back Cal, not just take. While I applaud the past efforts of your family, I don't applaud any effort made by you. You are in this to make money...that is all.

Do you know why the public land in your neck of the woods is crowded? You're the reason. Do you know why recruiting hunters into the sport is getting more and more difficult? You. Do you know why you have antelope dying on your leases? You...it is called lack of management (someone could have used them instead of letting them go to waste).

While I do think that landowners have the right to charge for access, (heck I've paid plenty through fixing fence, branding cattle, and doing all sorts of odd jobs), I think paying an extraordinary amount of money for some guy to drive me around a ranch in a 4X4 so shoot an antelope is a complete joke, and not only a threat to hunting, but does the resource no favors either.

Believe me, each year it boggles the imagination seeing folks paying guys like you to take them hunting...anyone who knows how to shoot a firearm and has any sort of initiative could do the whole thing without people like you.

MG

quote:

Believe me, each year it boggles the imagination seeing folks paying guys like you to take them hunting...anyone who knows how to shoot a firearm and has any sort of initiative could do the whole thing without people like you.

I guess this statement doens't say much for hunters nowadays....

MG

MG & Cal........

Thank you very much for highjacking my thread with your pissing match which had nothing to do with the original intent.

Sometimes it's simply best to stay home.

TomP, actually it was Braveheart. Sorry for the short hijack.

I think the_captain said it best. I am always sort of amazed at the folks in my affluent neck of the woods that wear their furs, complain about the police sirens at night and eat their steaks and then complain about those of us that do things for ourselves.