Answering the question, there are some places where you want your target to stay just there. Oh yes, the .30�s kill very well, but I�ve seen many wild boars run a hundred years or more after being perfectly hit with your beloved 06....and die in the dirty brush. That�s trouble for sure in my hunting area. Following the old teaching, I use enough gun: a 375 H&H. Never lost one so far. Just my 2 cents Nainital
Posts: 1020 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 21 May 2003
Quote: A 30-06 would have dropped another 3.5 inches or so and would have been going a little slower for less expansion and more penetration and made a nice chest hit
It may also have drifted more in the wind and just struck one shoulder resulting in a lost deer.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
It may also have drifted more in the wind and just struck one shoulder resulting in a lost deer.
I guess the moral is to know your trajectory and drift, etc. The only way to get good is to practice, which is more expensive (in a number of ways) using a magnum. It's just as easy to over correct as under correct if you haven't put the time it at the range...
Quote: When seeking more power (and tolerating more recoil) I prefer to go up in caliber before going up in velocity; e.g., I'll go from a 30-06 to a 338-06 before I go from a 30-06 to a 300 mag. A heavier, wider bullets seems more likely to make a difference in a marginal hit than the same bullet driven a few hundred fps faster.
I have never owned a .30-06 and I have never killed anything with one, so I can't answer your question. Just two years ago or so I bought my first .30 cal rifle (.30-30s don't count here), a Weatherby .300. I am 51 years old and have managed with out a .30-06 so far. I have used .270s, .7mm Rem. Mags, .338 Win. Mags, and I have settled into a set of Weatherby calibers that I like: .300, .378, .416. Craig Boddington has written that he cannot detect a difference in killing ability between the .30-06 and any of the .300 mags (Win, Wby, H&H), and I believe him. But I like my .300 Wby.
Posts: 669 | Location: Alaska, USA | Registered: 26 February 2004
When seeking more power (and tolerating more recoil) I prefer to go up in caliber before going up in velocity; e.g., I'll go from a 30-06 to a 338-06 before I go from a 30-06 to a 300 mag. A heavier, wider bullets seems more likely to make a difference in a marginal hit than the same bullet driven a few hundred fps faster. Besides, I don't shoot beyond 300 yds, so muzzle velocties in the 2500-2700 fps range shoot plenty flat for reliable accuracy and retain enough velocity to ensure expansion. JMO...
I passed on a deer facing me while hunting with a 22-250 once. I felt that I could hit it but was not sure that I would kill it. I let my buddy with his 300 win mag take it. Guessing around 400 yards.(150 grain max handloads).
He hit it right in the mouth and the bullet stopped at the rear of the jaw. It took a finishing shot when we got to the deer.
A 30-06 would have dropped another 3.5 inches or so and would have been going a little slower for less expansion and more penetration and made a nice chest hit. Maybe a 30-06 would have been better than the magnum there .
--------------------------------------- Its all in the shot placement.
Posts: 9823 | Location: Montana | Registered: 25 June 2001
If you are sighting in for MPBR the howitzer 300's will only yeild you about 25 yards more MPBR than a good ole 270. then you will have to deal with more recoil muzzleblast and ammo expense, I would be willing to bet that in the hands of 75% of people making a 350 yard shot with a 300 or 270 or even the 06 would be alot more likely to make a hit than with the magnum. Did I say magnums are a myth?? flame away
Posts: 1755 | Location: slc Ut | Registered: 22 December 2002
Jon A, thank you, thank you. It seems very few folks in the States are aware that shooting a heavier bullet at the same rate of speed is what the magnums were developed for. Not some silly assed boy howdy look what I can do with a light for calibre bullet.
I have hunted with both standard and magnum calibres and have never felt that I had to make a choice. And, if I were to made a choice, I don't think I would have to justify my choice by trashing someone else's selection.
If you don't want to shoot a magnum, don't shoot one. That's kinda simple, huh. Its no reflection on your manhood any more than shooting a magnum makes you a macho man. No need to justify your choice. Certainly no need to parrot the old line of bullshit about only shooters of standard calibres can hold on target or the magnums tear the animal to pieces. Poor bullet selection is poor bullet selection regardless of the calibre.
Like the fellow posted, he bought a RUM, not because he needed it but because he wanted it. I own several rifles that would fall into that catagory. Some magnums; some standard calibres.
To answer your question, most of the animals I have killed with a rifle of any sort would have died if hit in the same place with an arrow. Or a spear for that matter. What is your point???
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
all i have killed is deer(100+) & hogs (150+) with a number of cal's and i can't see any difference at the range 100 or less yards. my 1st 75 or so deer were killed with a stock 30'06 bdl & 180 corelock round noses and deer dropped quickly with little tracking, over the years i have gone as small as 250 savage and as large as 35 whelen.. i find little difference in any of these but the whelen drops deer faster than anything else..my load in a 225 sierra bullet at 2650 fps..the 250 was using a 120 speer flat base at 2550 fps & i got a good clean kill with a lung shot.
Posts: 1125 | Location: near atlanta,ga,usa | Registered: 26 September 2001
Quote: Here is what I don't understand about wind drift and the magnum guys. The difference...is 1.08".
Read what I posted again. I hunt deer with 200 grain bullets and have used 240's in the past. People could do that with the '06 but how many actually do? Most are going to use 150's or 165's for deer and antelope. When I said I didn't care about trajectory above, that was relatively speaking--a 200 '06 trajectory would be rainbowed enough to bother even me unless I was strictly brush-hunting. Not putting a rangefinder on anything that looks like it might be 200 yards or farther would be irresponsible IMHO unless you're a much better judge of range than I am. My rifle is zeroed at 300 yds.
Try an example with a heavier bullet at a similar velocity like I said above:
To get the velocities similar, take the 150 for example. I've never loaded for a 30-06 but I assume 3075 fps would be a pretty hot load for a 150? Compare that to my 200 load at 3175 with bullets of similar shape--the AccuBond and Ballistic Tip.
With 10 MPH of wind, the 150 drifts 11.71" at 400 and the 200 load drifts 7.96". That's a significant difference at nearly 4"--nearly 50%. So, in order to miss by the same amount, one must judge the wind 50% better with the '06. For every MPH you're off, you'll miss by 50% more. Could be left, could be right and it gets worse the farther you get from the target.... I'm a realist--I'll take all the help I can get.
Like I said, one could improve the '06 numbers by using the same 200 grain bullet but then you'd have that trajectory to deal with and impact velocities would be getting pretty slow out at ranges where it really matters.
Quote: not a incremental increase that could just as easily hurt as help at the shoulder of a unpracticed rifleman.
My example above should show why that isn't true. So, if you had 0" wind drift that would make it somehow harder for an "inexperienced rifleman" to judge how much not to compensate?
On the other stuff: Class rules. People don't compete 1000 yd heavy gun with 6mm BR's....
Posts: 920 | Location: Mukilteo, WA | Registered: 29 November 2001
Quote: You hunt deer with 200 and 240 gr 30 caliber bullets out of a 300 mag? I presume this is because you want to, and not because you think it's necessary?
Yes, it's because I want to. Is there a better reason? If one thinks any shot beyond 300 yds is "unethical" then of course it's a waste on something the size of a deer. I don't. But since I choose to keep the option of longer shots open, I choose to do it in a manor in which I feel comfortable. Using a round that is less affected by the wind and knocks the crap out of my gong at ranges much longer than those at which lesser rounds hardly make a "ping" gives me that confidence.
If you enter elk into the picture, (didn't get drawn this year) would you guess hitting one with the '06 using the 200 grain bullet at 300 yds would have more or less effect than putting the muzzle up against its hide? At 300 yds, the RUM load hits like the '06 does at the muzzle--using the same bullet. A lighter bullet in the '06 does much worse....
Quote: 6mm BRs are used in light gun 1000 yd,
You'll need to show me some results that show the 6mm BR being competative with the big guns in a class where both are legal.
Quote: Heavy gun sees 243s and other small caliber, non-magnum rounds. The 308 and various improved 6mms, and the 6.5-284 are also quite popular.
I'm not sure how popular the 243 is...but take a look at the BC's of the bullets being used by the 6.5-284 crowd and you'll see why they do so well. Now compare that with 30 cal 150s.
Posts: 920 | Location: Mukilteo, WA | Registered: 29 November 2001
In reality there is no such thing as a "standard" case or a "magnum" case... there are just different size brass cylinders, some of which hold more powder, some less. Pick the brass cylinder you're comfortable with and let others choose the brass cylinder they're comfortable with. There is no magic in any of them... you've got to put a quality bullet where you want at the range (and wind) you're shooting at (in). Period. The bigger brass cylinder's make hitting easier at ranges over 300 yards and in heavier wind and, if one can shoot them well, are the better cylinder for certain application's, particularly big, big game. Smaller brass cylinder's make for lighter rifles which can be a benefit. Bigger brass cylinders require a bigger, heavier rifle which can be a handicap. Make the compromise you're comfortable with (everything's a compromise) and quit telling other's your compromise should be their compromise... this ain't the former USSR.
I did say, "hit in the same spot".Here is what I don't understand about wind drift and the magnum guys. The difference using a 180gn Patrition at 400yds, 10mph, 2800fps vs 3100fps is 1.08". How is that a factor? At 300 yds using the same veloceties energy is around 2100fps vs 2600fps. Now of course more can be better, but is this significent on a deer or an elk hit through the heart/lung/sholder? I realize that the 300mags add 100+ yards, but how many of us should shoot at much over 300yds anyway! But maybe that's another question? capt david
Posts: 655 | Location: South Texas | Registered: 11 January 2004
Fair enough. I prefer a 257 Roberts with a 120gr BT at 2900+ fps - winddrift at 300 yds is about 6.5. It's extremely modest recoil makes practicing often in wind easy and cheap, and its light weight makes it a joy to carry. This is just my preference, and perhaps if I had access to a longer practice range (than 300 yds) I would consider something bigger.
Quote:
If you enter elk into the picture, (didn't get drawn this year) would you guess hitting one with the '06 using the 200 grain bullet at 300 yds would have more or less effect than putting the muzzle up against its hide? At 300 yds, the RUM load hits like the '06 does at the muzzle--using the same bullet. A lighter bullet in the '06 does much worse....
Of course this true, but, to me, it remains a question of how much is enough and how much is not enough.
Quote:
You'll need to show me some results that show the 6mm BR being competative with the big guns in a class where both are legal. I'm not sure how popular the 243 is...but take a look at the BC's of the bullets being used by the 6.5-284 crowd and you'll see why they do so well. Now compare that with 30 cal 150s.
I believe that some of the world records were held by a 6mm, but were recently taken by a 6.5-284 (I am thinking off the top of my head). Surf around for some match results - a few years back you'll see 6mms (including 6BR is some regularity) - in very recent times the 6.5-284 has really taken over. Load is a 142 at 2900-3000 fps range. Still, why don't shooters see the need to shoot a 264 Win or a 6.5 RUM wildcat. Why is more not better?
Next, telescope these ideas back to a 300 yd hunting range. If a 6mm BR can even be in the running at 1000 yds, then surely something as powerful as a 30-06 can be reliable at 300 yds. Moreover, why is intermediate range target shooting dominated by 6mm PPC, 6mm BR, and (lately) by the 30 BR, and not something more powerful? The 6mm BR, 6mm/250 and 260 are quite popular in F-class (22 lbs of rifle should be able to tame recoil and barrel heat of a heavier round, but many shooters stay with these lesser rounds).
To be honest, nothing I have killed with the 300 Win mag or the 300 WSM that I replaced it with. It all could have been done with a 30 06, or a .308. In fact, in 43, coming on 44 years of hunting big game in the US, I made exactally 2 long range shots, both measured after the shot, both of them in my teen years, and made with a 30 06. The magnums, all shots at or under 200 yards. Thinking back, the shortening of range coincides with an increase in my staling skills and reading deer and elk cover.
Posts: 631 | Location: North Dakota | Registered: 14 March 2002
Quote: I did say, "hit in the same spot".Here is what I don't understand about wind drift and the magnum guys. The difference using a 180gn Patrition at 400yds, 10mph, 2800fps vs 3100fps is 1.08". How is that a factor? At 300 yds using the same veloceties energy is around 2100fps vs 2600fps. Now of course more can be better, but is this significent on a deer or an elk hit through the heart/lung/sholder? I realize that the 300mags add 100+ yards, but how many of us should shoot at much over 300yds anyway! But maybe that's another question? capt david
I agree. Once again it is a function of knowing your trajectory and wind through lots of practice, not a incremental increase that could just as easily hurt as help at the shoulder of a unpracticed rifleman.
Besides, if wind bucking and ultra-flat trajectory was the most important feature to intermediate range accuracy, then why are rounds like the 6mm BR, 6mm/250, 260, and 308 so popular for distance targeting shooting and sniping (308)?
If your premise is that the .30-06 is all you need and the magnums don't improve on anything, then why not just forget about the .30-06 and stick with a .30-30?
Then why not just forget about the 300 and shoot a 340? It is not a question that one delivers more or less, but rather of how much is enough, and, in particular, if one is enough and one is not enough.
I know you are an accomplished rifleman, and I suspect that you are one of rare few that can actually make use of the extra power of a magnum, i.e., you have the skills to make shots at 400-500 yds, and are thus not bound by the 200-300 yd max that most of us, if honestly tested, could handle. There is a point somewhere out there when the velocity drops sufficiently low such the expansion fails, and this will undoubtedly happen sooner for the '06 that a 300 mag; however, this will generally not happen within 300 yds.
Here is one way I think about it in terms of ballistic figures: a 30-06 has 2000 ish ft/lbs at 300 yds. This, if going by book figures with hunting bullets, is equivalent to holding a 454 Casull to the hide of the animal. I can't think of any animal that I would hunt with a 30 caliber anything that would survive such a hit. Is this "enough" or "not enough". Personally, I'd be more worried about keeping the front sight of my revolver out of my forehead...
Absolutely nothing, matter of fact I choose to hunt exclusively with my 30.06. The 7mm, 338 and the 300 wthby are just toys for now. Deer and black bear are no match for the 30.06 here in the Northeast. No match for a bow either, just hunt, don't just shoot.
Posts: 156 | Location: NY | Registered: 30 December 2003
You're flamed. 
