I want to learn how to handle the ANGLES...

And don't really know how to pose the question, so please bear with me...

I haven't had much experience with this shot but this past MAY I had an uphill shot on a Kudu Bull about 175 yds directly above me with an estimated 45(+)degree angle...My shot hit higher than my point of aim...Still a good shot but a very, very high heart/lung shot...I would say about 4-5" higher than mu POA...Fighting for his life he still managed to make his way hobbling slowly upslope and was going to try and make it over the ridge so I shot him again at 275 yds and he fell over and crashed 40 ft down the steep mountain slope!

BTW, I went there with a 200yd ZERO, but upon sighting in the first day me and my son's PH had us both adjust to a 100yd zero...Nevertheless we made adjusted our calculations for drop while in the field as I did in the shot in question here...

I hit him exactly where I wanted to with this second shot by calculating my drop at this distance and shot lower...and bulls-eye...I nailed that ole boy!

I'm a new hunter...only two years hunting...and only 4x in the field and then this trip to Namibia where I was blessed with all one-shot kills, except for this one on the slope...

I don't want this to happen again because of my inexperience, as I will expect to run into this up-hill/down-hill scenario again in the future!

May I ask for some advice from you all in how do you handle these shots in the field???

I don't have an area to practice these type of shots where I live...And I don't want to be a guessing when I'm presented with this shot again someday!

I would think I handled my second shot perfectly...

But what's running through your mind to set-up this shot???

Here's my thoughts that ran through my mind in setting-up that split-second shot when my PH said to take him again...It hit him EXACTLY where I aimed!

Up-hill or Down-hill angle...shoot lower!

Calculate drop and hold!

Now, re-adjust aim lower to compensate for slope angle!

SQUEEZE for the surprise break!

I'd like to know how others here handle that shot out of curiousity...I just want to be sure if they handle up-slope and down-slope shots one in the same???

Thanks for any wisdom on this as I'm looking for some re-assurance from the AR Family!!!

I want to be able to take these shots with even greater confidence the next time out if presented with the opportunity on a trophy animal!

Roland

i don't encounter or take too many angled shots, but here are two things i've learned, and i hope that others here can explain it better. i don't have a slide rule handy and wouldn't know what to do with it other than pick my nose even if i had one - i am an historian, not a physicist.

the main thing to me is that complex, geometric equations etc. are not really necessary. i am sure that they sell gadgets etc. to figure this stuff out, but sometimes it is just a man, the game and his rifle.

1. in general, the best thing to do is estimate the horizontal distance first, and then use that as a base in your figuring; from there, proceed to step two.

2. whether uphill or downhill, the shot seems to always go a little high; take that into consideration, i guess based on the horizontal distance.

these two guidelines have nearly always gotten me very much in the ballpark and right next to or on the money.

Yep, I'm not looking for a slide-rule gadget or formula here either!

Just want something in my noggins to help me to instinctively set-up the shot!!!

Thanks for the reply!

I'm interested in what other hunters will also happen to share too, hence the reason for the post...I just want to learn to take an ethical, well-placed shot the animal deserves...no more and no less...

Shooting at varying angles from horizontal will always require holding lower than your line-of-sight range would indicate.

There are several ways to offset this difference, with varying degrees of complexity and accuracy. Generally speaking, the greater angles and longer distances will demand a more careful approach to solving the difference.

All methods use the cosine of the angle, applied to the range, or to the trajectory, in one of several ways.

The simplest method, and that most suited to time constraints and distances of hunting conditions is the "Rifleman's Rule".

Using the Rifleman's Rule, we will multiply the cosine of the angle against the line-of-sight distance. The drop is then corrected as per the product, and wind is corrected for over the entire distance. Angles under 20o require minimal correction, if even worth considering, but steep angles can yield drastic departures.

Here are the basic cosines of some common angles:

10o = .99
20o = .94
30o = .87
40o = .77
45o = .71

More cosine values may be found here: http://www.polaris.iastate.edu..._sub3sincostable.htm

Looking at your Kudu situation: For a 45o angle at 175 yards, you would have multiplied the cosine of .71 x 175 yards to arrive at a corrected distance of 124 yards. So, to correctly place the bullet, you would have aimed as if the Kudu was at 124 yards, vs the line-of-sight distance of 175. If the wind was a factor, you would have figured the wind over the entire 175 yards.

Not knowing your cartridge ballistics, I cannot tell, but would suspect you'll find the difference between your 124 yard point of impact and your 175 yard point of impact about equal to the error you saw with your high hit.

For shooting the long range matches we shoot at ranges exceeding 1,000 yards, this "Rifleman's Rule" formula will have too much error and we would use a refined method, but for customary hunting distances, it works fine.

ed -

i appreciate your reply - it explains the one failure that i did have last year.

do you have any suggestions on how a layman in the field can "eyeball" it, for lack of a better word?

Thanks Ed...

Geez, I'm really not a mathmetician and I get easily turned off by the numbers, but somehow I understand a little bit about what you shared here in the grand scheme of the numbers factor...Pretty cool!

To be frank, I was looking for just some simple rule of thumb...but upon further reading your reply it doesn't hurt one bit to have a basic understanding of this stuff without bringing a calculator in the field with me!

Very enlightening my friend, way heavy for me but nontheless enlightening and beneficial! Thanks!

And btw, you are EXACTLY correct in terms of where I shot high...just proves this formula you shared with me here works!

Okay anybody else to share how they handle these shots!

Tough to condense something that is already an approximation, but maybe you could go with a "percentage" perspective. For example:

If the angle is "noticeable, but not too steep", take 10% off the distance (cosine equivalent would be .90~25o).

If the angle is "pretty steep, but walkable", take 20% off the distance (cosine=.80~35o).

If the angle is "very steep and not walkable without using hands", take 30% off the distance (cosine = .70~45o).

While admittedly rough, it certainly would beat not compensating at all, and if ranges are modest, might be close enough.

I don't know what would work any better than that, unless one were to invest in an "Angle Cosine Indicator" ("ACI") intended for rail mounting on a tactical style rifle. I have these on several of my competition rifles, but don't see much attraction to adding it to my hunting rifles. This device is bulky and expensive, but shortcuts all the math and delivers a number you can use at a glance: http://www.snipertools.com/aci.htm

Eshell is correct.
All you need to think of is that gravity is not pulling on the side of the bullet as much as the angle increases but is either pulling more on the base or nose.
If you shoot straight down or straight up, there is no drop and as you lower or raise the gun, drop increases until the max is reached with a level gun.
Tree stand hunting with a gun or bow will give the same results. As the deer gets closer, you have to aim lower. One reason it is better not to go too high in the tree. I laugh at guys that need to go 30 feet high. It makes it harder to hit. Bows are the worst.

Thanks Ed!!!

SUPER!!!

I like that rules of percentages better as a rule of thumb!!!

I'll be a better slope shooter because of you taking the time to share this with me...

God Bless my friend!

Roland

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Eshell is correct.
All you need to think of is that gravity is not pulling on the side of the bullet as much as the angle increases but is either pulling more on the base or nose.
If you shoot straight down or straight up, there is no drop and as you lower or raise the gun, drop increases until the max is reached with a level gun.
Tree stand hunting with a gun or bow will give the same results. As the deer gets closer, you have to aim lower. One reason it is better not to go too high in the tree. I laugh at guys that need to go 30 feet high. It makes it harder to hit. Bows are the worst.

Thanks buddy!

This puts it all into perspective!

Thanks for taking the time to share...

I appreciate it!

Roland

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:
Okay anybody else to share how they handle these shots!

I usually hold it for a low heart shot. Even if I’m a little off, I’ll take out a lung or two.

quote:

Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:
Okay anybody else to share how they handle these shots!

I usually hold it for a low heart shot. Even if I’m a little off, I’ll take out a lung or two.

Okay, this is the type of answer and mind-set I was looking for originally when I posted my question...

At the distance that I feel comfortable shooting [250-300yds MAX] and taking into consideration the other factors as slope, wind, etc.

I would say your mind-set is one I shall adopt in the field...because based on the numbers and percentages ED just shared that will put me in the boiler room for that SOLID shot I'm looking for!

Thanks for sharing, now I can see THE SHOT in my mind when I'm in on a formidble angle whether it be up-slope or down-slope!!!

I appreciate you sharing your .02 cents...

As its worth a $1,000,000 to me...

Aloha!

Roland

Just to reinforce the outcomes of aiming at game on a hill, up or down, and it is steep, I'll tell you what happened to me last year.

I borrowed a friend's crossbow just to see if I liked it and killed 2 deer with it. I was in a treestand so shots were steep downward. The crossbow was sighted dead on at 20 yards on level ground.

I hit both deer just under the spine and I was aiming almost at the bottom of their belly under the heart. That meant that the bolts were hitting about 9" high at 10 yards (the distance both deer were), when shooting downward.

I bought an Excaliber Exocet this year to play with and instead of sighting it in on level ground, I did it from 17 feet up. I zeroed it at 20 yards. At 10 yards it's about 1/2" high. Then, when I shot it on level ground at 20 yards, it was 3.5" low. I wanted to know how it did on the horizontal b/c I do have one property where I hunt from the ground.

Ultimately, my simple rule of thumb when rifle hunting on steep grades is to always just aim at what I believe is the bottom of the heart out to 200 yards with the rifle zeroed at 200 on level ground. If I happen to have a 250 yard shot, I'll aim in the center of the kill on the shoulder.

Hey Doc...

Thanks for sharing!

Interesting stuff there...

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
ed -
do you have any suggestions on how a layman in the field can "eyeball" it, for lack of a better word?

I do. Just aim a little low. How much you say? How do I know, just aim "a little" low. About the distance that "feels right" to you. Might not get you back to perfect placement but it will likely be better than doing nothing! It's a field judgement. Like asking how far do you lead a running buck, flying goose or dove... Just do it. Not scientific or even what seems to be wanted but when hunting starts getting too complicated it stops being fun and after all, that's what its all about right?

Ed I must say that was very well put.
Technical enough to get the point across but not overly so to alienate folks.
The main thing to remember is that gravity only affects your bullet on the total level horizontal distance. If the length of a shot (whether its up a steep slope or down a steep slope) from you to the target is say 200 yards but because of the angle if measured purely on the horizontal plane is only 100 yards then gravity will only affect your bullet as if it were a 100 yard shot.
I can draw it in the dirt much better than I can explain it!

It's good to know what you're bullet will do on steep angles, but don't over think it - the difference isn't enough to worry about until you get beyond 300 yards and a 30 degree angle.

The difference between 124 and 175 yards isn't 5 inches. As much as we like to hit where we're aiming, you probably didn't. The inch or two of difference in trajectory combined with you being human led to that 4 or 5 inch difference. Don't let it get to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Ed I must say that was very well put.
Technical enough to get the point across but not overly so to alienate folks.

The main thing to remember is that gravity only affects your bullet on the total level horizontal distance. If the length of a shot (whether its up a steep slope or down a steep slope) from you to the target is say 200 yards but because of the angle if measured purely on the horizontal plane is only 100 yards then gravity will only affect your bullet as if it were a 100 yard shot.

I can draw it in the dirt much better than I can explain it!

Well put!

I got what you're saying!!!

It has probably already been said, but for angled shots I try to imagine the distance from myself to a spot either directly below the animal, or directly above that intersects with an line drawn straight out from me.
For example if the animal is above me on a slope imagine a plumb bob dropped straight down through the mountain to a spot directly level with you.
Gravity will affect your bullet as if shooting that distance.
The other thing to be careful of is not taking into consideration the angle of bullet path through the animal if he is on an angle to you.
If you have him above you and you calculate to hit him in t he same spot as you would if her were level to you then you are likely to one lung him as the bullets path will be too sharply upwards.
So you still want to imagine the vitals and shoot for the bullet path to pass through the center of the vital area of the heart/ lungs no matter the angle.
Now with that all said, the best bet as has been mentioned is just shoot for the heart on angled shots.
Unless the angle is very extreme that will take care of 99 percent of your business.

quote:

Originally posted by Greg R:
It's good to know what you're bullet will do on steep angles, but don't over think it - the difference isn't enough to worry about until you get beyond 300 yards and a 30 degree angle.

The difference between 124 and 175 yards isn't 5 inches. As much as we like to hit where we're aiming, you probably didn't. The inch or two of difference in trajectory combined with you being human led to that 4 or 5 inch difference. Don't let it get to you. Don't let it get to you.

Nope, not letting it get to me at the shooting distances I'm talking about as mentioned earlier in the post....

And being aware that I was on a very quick up-hill stalk at a very fast pace and stopping for only 4-5 seconds to set-up the shot while trying to catch my breath and settling down my heartbeat to take a quick-shot once I got an opening in the thick brush and make it count...
You had better believe the human element was into that high-shot for sure ...So based on where I was aiming yep, its a bit high 4-5" for the reasons I just stated and and for the slope-factor that I didn't factor in on my initial shot...yes, that is a given for sure!

But as you can see on my second shot the calculations were basically instinctively made and factored in with my long-shot at 275 yds which is my longest to date slope or no-slope for that matter... It was right on the money...!

And the purpose of this post is for me to gain a better understanding so that my level of marksmanship will increase with my level of skills to spot n' stalk game...

As being very new to this sport and my deep respect and affection for the beautiful outdoors and the precious game it holds, I owe that beast my BEST shot or else I won't take it!

I'm the weak link in the whole equation and will always be for the rifle is proven and so is the load as all my 14 hunting rifles shoot sub-MOA and most shooting >.25"...When I pull the trigger, there ain't no guessing so to speak!

I never take aim for the boiler-room vitals but I take aim on a SPECIFIC point there...What floats my boat is hitting it EXACTLY there each and every time! I'm into PRECISION shooting when I take my game and it gives me much satisfaction and gratification! It might be weird to some guys but I just get a HIGH accomplishing this feat... I do realize it would be much easier just putting it anywhere in the vitals as its going to expire anyway, but I enjoy the EXTREME challenge I've presented myself from the very first day I owned my first rifle only two years ago!

Also, I do realize there are just so many variables while out shooting in the field hunting...And I do realize that in time I will make some bad shots given the amount of hunts I'll be doing as that's another given...

But what I'm after here is to gain the necessary level of understanding and level of skill and level of experiences to minimize shots gone bad as its inevitable at some point!

So, it really doesn't get to me, but yes it does...And I prefer it that way as I'm always up for that challenge to put it on the MARK...I enjoy it very much!

I understand what you are sharing and the spirit to its intent and it was received as such and I thank you very much as that was very kind of you to share that with me as a noob!

However, I just wanted to enlighten you as to why I created this thread and why I'm grateful for all the expert advice that I'm receiving here....

Thanks for stopping by and sharing!

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
It has probably already been said, but for angled shots I try to imagine the distance from myself to a spot either directly below the animal, or directly above that intersects with an line drawn straight out from me.
For example if the animal is above me on a slope imagine a plumb bob dropped straight down through the mountain to a spot directly level with you.
Gravity will affect your bullet as if shooting that distance.

The other thing to be careful of is not taking into consideration the angle of bullet path through the animal if he is on an angle to you.

If you have him above you and you calculate to hit him in t he same spot as you would if her were level to you then you are likely to one lung him as the bullets path will be too sharply upwards.

So you still want to imagine the vitals and shoot for the bullet path to pass through the center of the vital area of the heart/ lungs no matter the angle.

Now with that all said, the best bet as has been mentioned is just shoot for the heart on angled shots.
Unless the angle is very extreme that will take care of 99 percent of your business.

Very good stuff here and points I need to remember for sure! I appreciate you taking the time to add more into the pot! I appreciate your investment!

Maybe this is too simple but how about get a range finder, that figures angles, and go out wherever you hunt and see what readings you get.

I suppose that judging distances up and down hills and down in tree stands is part of the problem too.

Robert

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
do you have any suggestions on how a layman in the field can "eyeball" it, for lack of a better word?

My Silva Ranger compass has an inclinometer (up and down angle finder) built in.
It is easy to "guesstimate" once you have measured several inclines and figured the actual slope.
You just have to be close.

One of the hardest things to remember is whether shooting up or down a slope, the bullet will always hit high.