I just thought I would post this for the rest of you nuts who, like me, enjoy digging bullets out of your game and checking on their performance.

I went to New Mexico last week for a much anticipated elk hunt. I got there to find the weather hot and dry, the moon full, and both of my guides layed up. Not the best conditions you could hope for.

On the fourth day of a five day hunt I shot a small raghorn bull just so as to have something to put in the freezer. It was a good decision, the steaks of that bull are great!

I managed to sneak to within 50 yards of a herd of elk in the dark before dawn. When it got light enough to see, I decided to take this snall bull.

The first shot was at about 50 yards and I shot him square in the rib cage on the right side. The bullet went nearly straight through and was found lodged against the hide on the off side. (I was shooting a .338 Win Mag and was pushing Nosler 225 grain Partitions 2880 fps at the muzzle.)
The recovered bullet had expanded to 0.76 inches and weighed 185 grains for 82% weight retention.

The bull was dead on his feet, but had not gotten the message yet. He ran about 30 yards and spun around to see what had hurt him. I punched him in the ribs from the other side and he went down. The second bullet had gone through the chest cavity and was found lodged just under the skin in the off side shoulder. It had expanded to 0.58 inches and weighed 135 grains for 60% weight retention.

Just some info for you bullet nuts out there.

I was plenty pleased with the performance.

R F

Just the kind of info us bullet nuts like to see. thanks

Not that I doubt you in the least, but I'm suprised the bullets didn't exit. The elk I have taken with my 338 weren't big enough to stop the bullet-be it partition or X. Just curious, what do you think he weighed? Call it morbid curiousity.

I have taken a few head of game with the 338 dia 250 partiton at 2948 fps. Did not manage to recover any of the bullets though.

Congradulations on your elk,

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www.rifleshooter.com

I know moose may not be a tough as elk, but for those of you who hunt moose, I will tell you about two types of bullets I have used: I have killed all my moose but one, with 230-grain FS bullets. Some with factory ammo, and some with my own handloads. for my handloads with the 230-grain FS, 75 grains of RL-22 gets me somewhere around 2,830 fps at the muzzle.

It seems that .338 bullets punch right through moose, and so far I have only had one FS bullet that I recovered from a moose. It was a quartering-away shot (the moose had seen me and had decided to walk away). The antlers measured 57" across, not too large of a moose, but it was big and fat. The bullet scraped one rib, then broke the next on its way in. Then it broke the far shoulder bone after hitting the heart, and got stuck on the hide. This was a 200-yard shot.

A couple of years before this one, I killed another moose on the same spot, except that it was broadside and peacefully browsing when I shot one time through the shoulder. The FS broke the shoulder bone, clipped the arteries on top of the heart, broke the far-shoulder bone, and the exited. This moose dropped on the spot.

Two year ago I shot another moose (much smaller than some of the other moose I have killed), but this one was about 100 yards away, broadside to me. All I could see through the brush was the chest around the lungs, but a little high. I aimed to hit the lungs (above the heart), and by the time I was reloading the chamber the moose had dropped.

The one I shot this year was 250 yards away, broadside just a little, and walking. This time I used factory ammo, a Federal HE with 250-grain NOS bullet (2,770 fps from my rifle). I was hoping to recover the bullet, but again this one also plowed right through, leaving behind a good size hole on the lungs. This moose dropped almost instantly.

This is preview of my experiences with .338 Magnum bullets. I have no complains, since every moose I aim my .338 at just drops pretty fast. I am not making this up. My hunting partners love to see me shoot moose with my .338 (we share every moose I kill).

I have shot most of my elk with a 338 the last 10 years or so...I have used the 210, 225 and 250 Noslers and Woodleigh 300 gr.....

I liked them all and they all worked just fine...My pick for open country is the 210 Nosler as it is an amazing bullet under all conditions...The 300 Woodleigh is great for the timber as is the 250 Nosler..The 225 is fine but is neither fish nor fowl in my book, but it works....

I have used these same bullets in Zimbabwe, Tanzania and RSA a great deal...

The 338 is just slow enough to maintain bullet integrity 99% of the time, and fast enough to lay low any creature on this earth with aplomp IMHO...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Thanks for the responses guys.

In response to Big Bores post, I would guess this bull weighed about 600 to 650 pounds tops. I can only guess these bullets did not exit due to the close range involved.

Having said that, my buddy shot a bull on the same ranch last fall that probably weighed closer to 800 pounds or maybe more.
He shot him at around 400 yards with a 338-378 Weatherby. He has a 30 inch barrel on that thing and had 210 Nosler Partitions going 3500 fps. (LOTS OF POWDER)

His bull was about to cross a barbed wire fence onto another property where we do not have permission to hunt, so as long as it was standing, he kept shooting.

He shot that bull three times in the chest and none of those bullets exited, either.
Not that they failed in any way, in my opinion, just did not exit.

R Flowers

I got an antelope and Mule Deer with the 338 Hawk using 210 grain Partitions this year. Over a chrony it is going 2850 FPS at the muzzle

The Antelope was bedded at 230 yards. In one shoulder - through the spine - out the other shoulder. Antelope did not move. Not as much meat damage as I had expecected - say compared to BT.

Mule Deer - 300 yds - first shot low - through shoulder and about 2" above brisket. ( a poor shot)
Deer came back toward me to about 250yds - shot into front shoulder - not sure where - deer turned around and dropped - It was late and snowing and the deer had his head up so --
Third shot in opposite shoulder - through spine - through shoulder and logded in hide.

Recovered bullet weighs 180 grains now and diameter of .560

My first use of a Partition - I'm happy with them.

Higher velocity will almost always account for less penetration. The only NP I have ever recovered from a big game animal was a 210gr from my .338-06. The shot was a Kudu bull around 120yds. The bullet entered the L. front chest & lodged behind the last rib on the R. side. The bull ran about 25yds & dropped. The recovered bullet weighs 168gr w/ a oerfect mushroom.
I only hunt w/ NP's!!!!! I've seen too many other bullets "loose integrity" (bullet failuer seems to be non PC).

[This message has been edited by fredj338 (edited 11-07-2001).]

Interesting thread!! I use a 338 win mag for elk and have used Hornady 250 grain spire points. I have had 4 shots at elk with this load. Two broad side and 2 quartering toward me. The two broadside cut threw the elk like it was swiss cheese leaving a 2" hole going out. Of the two quartering shots 1 went from right next to the shoulder thru the body and exited by the rump, the other did just the same path but lodged just on the hide going out. That one recovered bullet expanded perfectly and held togeather very well. I have used partitions in other rifles but I would have to look long and hard to find better bullet performance than the Hornady's in my 338. I am kinda suprised that you are not getting a complete pass thru with partitons???

Can't go wrong with a .338 cal. Nosler Partition. I shot my last Moose with a 210gr. Nosler out of a .338-270HGT wildcat. Textbook performance, bullet found under the hide on the opposite shoulder. I have also used 250 gr Noslers in both the .338WinMag and the 340 W'by. Many times these bullets would exit on the other side. I shot many, many Moose with the .340 / 250Nosler, often half a dozen animals a year. I have also used these bullets on Elk and Grizzly Bear with good results.

Vasa

Flowers,
Common since dictates the 210 Nosler at velocities obtained with the 338/378 is not the bullet to choose for elk...The 250 is the bullet for that gun....

The 210 Nosler would have completely penitrated that elk out of a standard 338 because less velocity slows expansion and multiplys penitration due to less stress on the bullet.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ditto what FredJ and Ray said.

I have shot quite a few moose and elk with my .30-06 and 165 Speer Grand Slams at 2850 fps from 20 to over 300 yards and have never recovered a bullet.

My buddy Mike has never had the same bullet penetrate all the way through from his .300 Win Mag.

Killed 'em just as dead though.

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To be old and wise.....first you have to be young and stupid!

Last summer I bought some 250 grain Sierra BT bullets for my 338 win mag. I worked up a load that had a muzzle velocity of about 2700 and would shoot .75 inch groups. I normally use hornady�s but because these shot so well I thought I would try them this year. This last weekend I decided to take a break from elk hunting and look for a deer. I found a nice fat 4X4 mule deer and decided to take him. The shot was a quartering away shot at about 175 yards. I aimed for the off shoulder and touched one off. At the shot the deer wobbled off for about 40 yards and went down. When field dressing the deer I noticed a large amount of damage to most of the internal organs. I also noticed no exit wound. When I got home and skinned the deer I found the bullet between the body cavity and the off shoulder. The bullet was perfectly mushroomed but did not even break the off shoulder. Even though the bullet mushroomed and killed the deer very well I was very disappointed in the total penetration. I would have expected complete penetration from any angle with a 250 grain bullet from a 338. I have too seriously question if these bullets are a good choice for elk. Most elk that I have shot with hornady, barnes, or noslers have had complete penetration. I think I will go back to one of those.

Just thought I would pass on my observations and comments on this topic. I have just ended my deer hunting season here in S.E. Alaska having bagged my 4 deer - 3 bucks and one doe. 3 of the 4 deer this year were shot with the .338 caliber 250 gr partition using 72 gr H4831 for a MV of 2,550 fps.

Over the past 3-4 years I have taken around 8 deer with this load, with largest blacktail going about 170# on the hoof. I have recovered 3 bullets from animals, the most of any specific bullet I have ever used. Broadside shots will alway pass thru the animal. Quartering and head-on shots depend on what kind of bone is struck upon entry.

One of the three was a stem-to-stern shot on a doe (supposed to be a neck shot) that went completey to the rump for about 28" of penetration. The other two were quartering towards to nearly head-on shots on bucks that struck bone upon entry (one front shoulder and one brisket.) These shots ranged from 20-50 yards.

The statistics are as follows: average expansion - 206%; ave weight retained - 73%.

As typical, all except one lost it's front core. That one had the classic disk of lead still contained in the mushroom pocket, though.

I'd say this bullet works well, but I should point out that I use this heavy of a bullet for deer in case of a coastal brownie encounter. I did get a curious response from a fellow co-worker/hunter who expressed concern that if the bullet can't consistently pass thru a sitka blacktail at close range, how can I have confidence that it will provide adequate penetration in a bear charge? I was a bit staggered, because I guess he is right.

I think a try of the 250 partition gold is in order. I would love it if someone would perform a standardized penetration test on the "original" and "gold" versions for a comparision. For next year, I will be loading some Kodiak bondeds that I have on the shelf. We'll just have to wait and see if I recover any of these.

Lars G.

I've always been impressed in how well my .338 Win Mag works on Elk and the game I shot with it in Africa last year. I usually use the Hornady 225 Spire points, except for Africa, where I used the 225 Aframes.
I've always experienced complete pass throughs with these bullets on Elk, from any angle and only recovered 2 of the Aframes on my African trip from 11 animals shot.
I shot my first moose about a month ago in Alberta, a quick shot through the shoulders while it was walking across the trail we came in on at about 100 yards. My guide was watching, and he just said "holy geez" when that bull hit the ground hard. Then he went on to explain he has been shopping for a new elk cartridge to replace his .270 and every client he had guided in the couple years he has been with this outfitter that shot a .338 has had the same results. He even went so far as to say most of the guys who showed up with the smaller calibers usually got their moose, but a long trailing job usually ensued. From what he said, he seemed to believe the .338 shooters he had guided had spent more time shooting their rifles and were better shots, plus the results overall were pretty impressive. Just one man's perspective but it seems to mirror mine for the most part- Sheister

It is interesting how many bullets of various calibers and types frequently end up "just under the hide" on the off-side from the shot.

I think that this has a great deal to do with the elasticity of animal hide, and that the difference in a bullet that penetrates completely versus one that is caught by the hide may be very small.

It seems that the hide stretches away from the underlying tissue enough to often capture the bullet, which has created a substantial wound channel right up to that point. If the bullet happens to penetrate the off-side skin, the resulting exit wound gives the appearance of being much greater than the similar wound just beneath the skin left by a bullet that did not penetrate.

I've experienced the "under the hide" phenomonon with the same bullet and load on a 600 pound elk and a 150 pound whitetail! And I've seen a disproportionate number of bullets of all discription (partitions, factory core-locks, etc.) end up "just under the hide" on animals, both larger and smaller.

Most well-constructed bullets penetrate well until they hit the "rubber net" effect of the off-side skin, where they frequently come to rest. In other words, penetration through muscle and organs might be twice as much as when the stretchy hide "interferes".
But I've yet to see an animal's that didn't die just because the bullet penetrated everything except the last 5mm of skin!

None of this stuff in uncommon, fast bullets at short range normally expand so rapidly that penetration suffers and the bullets can't exit the tough elastic skin on the off side unless you go to a slower heavier bullet that is longer and has to expand more because once expansion reaches a maximum, penetration basically stops..simple as that...

both the the bullets fired by the author would have normally exited at 150 to 400 yds, but seldom at 25 or 50.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Shot my bull this year at 280 yds with the 225 partitions. Muzzle velocity is 2600 fps out of my .338-06. He was facing to the left, quartering a little towards his right side and slightly below me. I aimed for the off side leg and hit him in the middle of the ribs on the left side, exited out the forward portion of the ribs. I had thought the bullet was gone, then found it in the right leg. It had gone in and out but hit the inside of the leg and was under the skin on the off side.

The 225 weighed 159 grains and had expanded to .575", but had lost the nose lead on its trip. The bull went a short distance and dropped. I agree with Fred J. the lower impact velocity makes for more penetration. I am surely impressed with the .338" slugs on bigger game!

Frank N.

I can't wait to build my 338!!! I'll be going with a 12 twist as I've always been impressed with the performance of the NP 210gr and 225gr bullets. sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 11-29-2001).]

Hunters that expect those lightening type kills on elk have spent way to much time in the deer woods....

Velocity will kill a deer like the hammer of Thor, it won't even get an elks attention...If and elk is at all startled and the adrenaline is pumping he is going to run a ways...I have shot elk through the heart with my 416 and a bunch of other big guns and had them run 100 yds. or more,on many ocassions..I've also had them drop at the shop, neither proves squat.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, I won't argue with you on the velocity part, I just favor the 210NP because it shoots flat in the 338WM, is plenty of bullet for elk. Most 338s shoot the 210NP best with the 12twist, my 338 buddies claim this. I used to get teased alot for showing up in elk camp with a 7Mag, maybe not so in the future. I would not call Idaho's Sawtooth NF, Salmon river, Caribou NF, or Wyoming's Bridger Teton NF "deer woods" so to speak, thank you, sure-shot

Shot 2 caribou up in Kotz this year with my 338 win. One in the head which clearly exited. The other however I shot right in the middle of the chest as he was facing me(quatering away slightly). I am als using a 225 grain NP at about 2800. While field dressing the animal the brisket proved serverly damaged. I found the bullet in the rear hind quarter. The front part of the Nosler P was gone, but, the rear was still very much intact and most of the copper from the front was still there. I was happy...

Well,
I shot a nice big mule deer last day of season w/ my .338 Ultra and 210gr NP. (book velocity is 3200+fps) It was a snap shot, while he was moving (it was the only shot he offered me) and I hit him in the spine. Dropped him instantly. The bullet performed well under the circumstances (shot was pbly only 125yds, so it was still SCREAMING when it hit) The front section must've just exploded because the ENTRANCE hole is about 5-6" in diameter. While I was gutting it out I was feeling bits of bone/bullet throughout vital cavity. Extensive damage to the lungs, from both impact shock and the actual bullet going through. After the bullet hit the spine and front section blew up, I'm assuming it was the rear core that continued along the inner wall of the ribcage and (hitting the lungs) and exited on the far side of the rib cage. It is what I would come to expect from a NP at high impact velocities, and I can't say that I'm disappointed. I'm absolutely positive that if I were to hit a shoulder bone at that distance/velocity, I would still have a dead deer, but there would be no saving the shoulder at all...so I will have to be very careful/picky about my shot placement at closer ranges from now on. The neck is looking more and more inviting the more I think about it. Well, enough rambling, that is my .338 bullet performance story.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

A couple months back there was an article by Rick Jamison (I believe) that was very well written concerning bullet performance at different velocity. There are some huge differences in the rifles used through this string. From .338-06 to a .338 RUM is a huge shift in the energy curve. I have found Barnes bullets better for close shots at high velocity than any other traditional bullets as they hold together better. This damages a lot less meat. The fail-safes are probably just as good. On the slower side I think the best performance I have seen was with standard lead core bullets. They don't need, were not designed for, higher velocity. They expand well at a lower velocity and penetrate fine. I have a .338 WM and have been using the 200 gr X but I need to kill many more Elk with many different loads before I'll be able to tell which one's the best!

Hey guys, I just wanted to thank all of you for posting you opinions and experiences on this subject here on this board. I have really enjoyed your comments.

R Flowers

I have taken 16 elk with the 338WM. Eight with the 210 NP and eight with the 250NP. Also one bull moose. I have not seen any difference in performance, they all died within 20 or 30 yards. Iv'e never had to fire a second shot or have i recovered a bullet. If you do your part you won't be disapointed!