All of us like an accurate rifle as measured by groups shot from a bench, but there comes a point where field conditions cause more uncertainty in shot placement than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

So, what do you folks consider acceptible accuracy for the purpose of hunting big game?

You must be able to hit the heart/lung area, which is about 8" for a small deer at whatever range you're willing to shoot. Most of my shots are inside 100m, but they could go as far as 250m, and I probably wouldn't shoot past about 300. So call it 2.5 MOA at worst. Cut an inch off of that for confidence and call it 1.5 moa.

My main rifle shoots into .75 MOA, but I'm more interested in its reliability and balance.


Okie John

The more accurate that your gun is, the more shooting error you can make and skill produce a clean kill.Considering my hunting conditions,I will not hunt with a rifle that won't do 1 MOA or better.

quote:

The more accurate that your gun is, the more shooting error you can make and skill produce a clean kill.Considering my hunting conditions,I will not hunt with a rifle that won't do 1 MOA or better.

Preach On! That doesn't mean that inexperienced shooters will make hits just because their rifle is accurate but, it darn sure helps a fella out during times of "Buck Fever". When the ole' heart gets to pounding hard, the X-hairs do tend to wobble alittle.... Man, you got to love it.

I prefer a Rifle that shoots Sub Moa for shots from 0-100 free hand, 100-200 off a reasonable rest, 200-400 off a darn good rest.

I guess the more time you spend at the bench, the more critical you are about your rifles accuracy.

In all reality, I see no problem w/ any size group a man shoots as long as he sets his max distance at the range he can consistantly hit a pie plate.

Good Luck

Reloader

I won't hunt with a gun and load that averages over .75" and I prefer .5" @ 100 yds. When I say average I mean 5 5shot groups not 3 shot groups.

why am I so demanding? When you have the trophy whitetail of a life time looking at you at 350 yds and all myou can see is the head and neck. I want to be confident that I can hit the white spot under his chin.

When I consider how much I spend each year on hunting.ie. license, leasel, boat, four wheller, truck, food plots, loss of income while hunting, and the gifts to keep my wife happy. There is no reason I can't spend $500 having a Rem 700 accurized or $1800 for a custom rifle from Weaver Rifles.

Don't try to save money on the only equipment that truly makes any diffrence.
Dr B

If my rifle can shoot 1", 3-shot groups at 100yds., it puts my mind at ease that the rifle will its part if I do mine. I can then concentrate on hunting and making the first shot count.

George

Most of the people that I see at the 100yard range are using cheap scopes. I did not say low power scopes I said cheap. They spend a lot of money on a rifle only to handicap themselves with a piece of crap to look through. I buy the best scope I can get for each rifle none costing less that $350.00 most are in the $500.00 to $800.00 range. I work up a load for my rifle that is at minimum .75 at 100 yards off the bench .50 is better. The farther the shot the more critical it is to have a rifle and load combination that groups well.

A lot of people are going to disagree with this degree of accuracy being necessary, but with known accuracy comes confidence.

I see people also shooting different brands of ammo and bitching about there groups moving all over the target. I have informed them that they need to stick with the same brand and weight of bullet to get anything that might produce a decent group.

One person told me that he was going to look for the cheapest factory ammo to use hunting deer this fall. I told him that to think about it for a minute and informed him that compared to the cost of time off work license, tags etc that the bullets were the cheapest part of the hunt and not to skimp on the quality of his factory ammo. He agreed to this I then asked him how many boxes of ammo he figured he would shoot a year including sighting in and hunting he said 2 boxes should cover it enough said.

I demand a lot of my rifle if it doesn’t perform on the bench I trade it off and buy something of better quality. It is a lesson my father taught me when I was young that if you can’t afford to buy it the first time you can’t afford to keep buying it until you get what you want. I consider my father’s advice to be sound.

BTW I don't own any custom guns only factory.

For rifles I use out past 300 yards sub moa is right. For those use out to 300 sub 2 inchs gets the job done.

Confidense is one thing, but anyone who can thinks that they can hit any better with a sub one inch gun than they can with a a sub 1.5" gun under most hunting coditions, on big game, up to 300yds is kiddin' somebody. There just too many variables. I have no problem with people who want 'one holers', the're just not needed. take your shot, I'm hiddin' capt david

got to be 1" at a 100yd or less for me...chris

You guys crack me up. Many people claim to shoot groups under one inch at 100 yards. I have never shot a group under an inch at any distance, and you know what? I am OK with that. Every year I go out, and get within 200 yards of a deer, slide a bullet through his lungs, and bring home some venison. As far as hunting accuracy goes, a three inch group at 100 yards is acceptable under 99.9% of hunting situations.

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Originally posted by TomFromTheShade:
You guys crack me up. Many people claim to shoot groups under one inch at 100 yards. I have never shot a group under an inch at any distance, and you know what? I am OK with that. Every year I go out, and get within 200 yards of a deer, slide a bullet through his lungs, and bring home some venison. As far as hunting accuracy goes, a three inch group at 100 yards is acceptable under 99.9% of hunting situations.

AMEN

At the risk of hurting Tom with laughter, here is what I like to do.

I first determine the accuracy of my firearms by Benchmarking them with MatchKings or B-Tips. Always nice to know what the actual Accuracy Potential is.

Then I Develop a Load using a Hunting Bullet that is suitable for the Game I intend to Hunt. The actual Bullet will vary a bit if I intend to use this rifle at a longer distance. (Hold onto your sides Tom.) And I try my best to get the smallest Groups I can with a 1-shot cumulative Group.

Next up is determining the size of the actual "Kill Zone" which is located in the forward 1/3 of the critter for "me". For grins, lets say it measures 16" from Withers to Briskit. Imagine a 16" Diameter Round Target on the side of the critter.

Now I reduce the Diameter by 25% or 4" and end up with a 12" Diameter Kill Zone. And I practice at distances where I can get ALL the Bullets inside the 12" Kill Zone. If one is out then I either need more Trigger Time or I'm too far away.

That is what I "prefer to do", but I don't always get it done. Then the distance limit is determined simply by how far I've been able to actually practice and keep all the bullets in.
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Did you survive Tom?

That is a very practical way of doing things. I have no problem with that.

The thing that cracks me up is when people are complaining about shooting a 1.75" group at 100 yards with a hunting rifle.

People need to realize that these are hunting rifles. They are not sniper rifles. They are not target shooting rifles. They are meant to take game.

I don't want to start a huge war over this, but the people who really crack me up are the ones that will spend the extra few hundred dollars on a rifle that is "guaranteed 1/2 MOA" when they could save their money and get a rifle that is just as good for less.

I am not saying that you don't want your accuracy to be as good as it can be, but there is a point where it gets to be rediculous. I have friends that will spend all day between the shop and the range trying to get their groups to shrink from 1.25" to 0.75"! I have better things to do with my time...like hunt LOL.

I expect 1 MOA accuracy or better with good hunting bullets at 100 yds. More importantly, I expect 1 MOA accuracy with hunting bullets at 200 and 300 yds. as well. I'm never satisfied with a rifle's (or specific load's) accuracy until I've tested at 200 and 300 yds. That's where the real difference really begins to show. The truth is, tight 100 yd. groups can lull you into a false sense of security, so you need to test at longer ranges if you plan to hunt where shooting distances might exceed 100-150 yds.

Just as important, I expect my rifles to maintain a consistent point-of-impact at all ranges. A rifle that shoots 1 MOA groups, but has the tendance to shift POI by 3" when the weather changes is little is NOT an honest 1 MOA rifle, not even close to one.

That's why I've gone exclusively to well-bedded, stable, high-quality synthetics stocks (McMillan) for all of my hunting rifles. Wood tends to be an unstable material, especially if it's bedded tightly to the barrel for asthetic purposes.

If a given rifle won't maintain POI, it doesn't matter how tight the groups are off the bench -- you won't be able to trust the accuracy of that rifle...............

AD

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The thing that cracks me up is when people are complaining about shooting a 1.75" group at 100 yards with a hunting rifle.

Lets compare a 1.75MOA rifle to a .5MOA rifle at 300 yards.At 300 yards the 1.75MOA rifle will be shooting 5.25" groups while the 1/2 MOA rifle will be shooting 1.5" groups.While 5.25" will certainly keep all bullets in the kill zone,you must remember that the 5.25" group and 1.5" group were fired off a benchrest not under field conditions.Under field conditions groups will grow significantly.As an estimate,lets say they grow by 1.5 MOA which is amounts to 4.5" at 300 yards.When you add that 4.5" to the 5.25" you end up with 9.75" which is slightly larger than the vital zone of most deer.Yet when you add that 4.5" to the 1.5" for the .5MOA gun,You end up with 6 " which is well within the kill zone of any deer.Using the same example a 1MOA gun will produce a 7.5" group which is still within the kill zone of a deer.In other words the more accurate the gun,the more allowances you have for shooting error due to field conditions while still making a clean kill.You may still get your deer with the 1.75 MOA gun but the chances of a marginal shot that requires tracking are much greater.Of course if you hunt off of a bench rest that does change things,but then who wants to carry a benchrest with them while hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I prefer a Rifle that shoots Sub Moa for shots from 0-100 free hand, 100-200 off a reasonable rest, 200-400 off a darn good rest.
Reloader

Am I reading this right, you can shoot sub MOA at 100 yards without a rest of any kind?

I hear a lot of talk about accuracy "off the bench" Ya thats nice-but you gotta be able to shoot from offhand, sitting,-croth of a tree stuff. Determine the poi then get away from the bench and go plinking. I've stated before that I'm not a good shot but I still get my animals. Don't forget it's hunting and crawling a little closer is fun and exciting.

the chef

When I go into the field with a hunting rifle I want it near perfect from the bench, realizing I cannot take the bench with me into the field and will have handicaps galore when it comes time for the shot. I hopefully shoot enough for the pulling of the trigger to become instinctive when that time comes. Good shooting.

I'm with DPhillips, I want to see a sub MOA off hand 100 yrd group...................JJ

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
...Don't forget it's hunting and crawling a little closer is fun and exciting...

Hey Chef, I know I get a lot of pleasure being able to sneak in amongst them, remain as long as I want, kill one if everything is right and slip back out without ruining that spot. Not always possible after a kill, but a Goal.

Also enjoy patterning a Buck that I've seen at a long distance. Selecting the correct spot to intercept the Deer so the opportunity presents itself combined with a high percentage shot at whatever the distance is also great.

Just had a nice one move past me at spitting distance this week. Hope to put a buddy on it. Did go through the Aim and Fake Trigger Yank routine on it.

Everyone seems to judge a rifles killing accuracy off the bench, what if your rifle will only shoot a 5 inch group at 100yds? does it matter? how many of you can honestly shoot a 5inch group at 100yds off hand (hunting conditions) If your going to shoot out to 300-400 yds then a good grouping rifle and a good rest will be needed unless your one hell of a shot.
I know i can hit the bottom of a 4L paint drum 90% of the time off hand out to 200yds gun shoots 1.25" group at 100yds off the bench i can do it with a browning blr .308 that strugles to shoot 4" at 100yds too.
Practice off hand at animal sixed targets occasionally and see your true potential!!!!

I hunt in the open west and want MOA for all the help I can Get dealing with the wind.

Allen requires that a rifle stay sighted in. This is more important than groups but we want both.

I have some wood stocked rifles that will keep the same POI as long as they don't stay wet overnight. This has worked out for the way I hunt here.

Big game rifles don't require the same accuracy as varmint rifles but we want all that we can get. If the ranges are long then one moa is good. Under field conditions that's not always possible.

The latest toy here is a five pound SS 308 and it stays sighted in and puts three 150 gr Partitions into 1.25 moa. This is good for 300 yds or so. After that the bullet runs out of steam in my estimation.

quote:

Originally posted by Wooly ESS:So, what do you folks consider acceptible accuracy for the purpose of hunting big game?

No so much what accuracy is required, more like what distance can I get a guaranteed lung shot? Then hunt accordingly. I usually shoot prone off a fanny pack with similar point of impact to bench conditions, if there's any distance involved. The longer I do this, the shorter the shots get.

quote:

what if your rifle will only shoot a 5 inch group at 100yds?

It wouldn't be my rifle very long.

your gun should be capable of 1 m.o.a., if it isn't then it needs time with a gunsmith or dump it and get something that can shoot that way. you owe it to your animal..

I make sure that my rifle is shooting 1-1.5 inches at 100yds, by working up a load for that given rifle, and then practice from field positions on 9" paper plates. If I can keep 5 shots on the plate at what ever distance I have set up, from field positions, I am happy. I have a self imposed personal limit of 200yd. Where I hunt, that would be REAL long shot.

Your gun must be able to outshoot you in what ever position you could be shooting from.

Accuracy requirements depend on a number of factors. Among these are; The rifle caliber and type. The intended usage (quarry). Sighting equipment.
If I take my 94 Winchestr out and manage 2 1/2 moa, I'm perfectly content. The rifle is equipped with a Redfield peep sight, the range at which I'll shoot game is likely to be 75 yds. or less, and this level of accuracy is fine given the intended use of the rifle.
I expect a bit better from my bolt action rifles but, in truth, 1 1/2 moa is probably just fine. After all, this means, at 200 yds, the bullet will impact within 1 1/2 inches of the point of aim.
Just the other day, I shot a deer with a rifle which shoots the load I was using into roughly 1 3/4 moa. Given the conditions of the shot(s), a one moa rifle would have done no better. The first shot, taken at about 75yds as the deer trotted away at angle, was a clean miss. This probably due to intervening brush. The second shot was taken as the buck, now slowed to a walk, crossed a small clearing at about 125 yds (a long shot for me). This was a decent raking shot which entered just ahead of the diaphragm and exited close behind the opposite shoulder. The deer died from this shot.
Now, since both of these shots were taken at a moving animal and since I was shooting offhand, it's not likely that a half moa rifle would have done any better so there is no question in my mind that the accuracy level of this particular rifle was all that was required.
Another scenario with a similar animal standing at 300 yards and the opportunity to shoot prone or from a rest and this accuracy might not be acceptable. After all, the target is more distant, and I am capable of holding with greater precision (or so I like to think!) from these positions. Given this opportunity, I would want a different rifle in my hands or I would probably pass on the shot.
Since most of my hunting consists of still hunting in timbered country and since I don't have a great investment in the hunt (I'm seldom more than 10 miles from home), I can be a bit cavalier in my choice of rifle and my performance requirements. I know under what conditions the shot (on the rare occasion that I get one!) is likely to be taken. If I don't get a suitable opportunity today, there is always tomorrow.
For the man who is going on the only hunt he might get to take this season, or theman who is paying big bucks for a guided hunt, the situation might be a bit different. He might have to take a shot at longer range or get no shot at all. Also, he might need to have a little more confidence in his outfit.
This leads us to what might be the most important component of the accuracy requirement equation. The mindset of the hunter/shooter. If the hunter has it in his head that he needs 3/4 moa accuracy, that is what he must have. In reality though, the hunter has to be certain of hitting an eight inch circle every time at the range and under the conditions at which the shot is taken. This places less of a limitation on the rifle than on the hunter. A good hunter who is a consistent game shot will enjoy greater success with a 1 1/2 moa rifle than a less skilled man with a 3/4 moa rifle. What's more, even a more accurate rifle isn't going to make a big difference to him since he will always shoot within the limits of his ability. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:
The more accurate that your gun is, the more shooting error you can make and skill produce a clean kill.Considering my hunting conditions,I will not hunt with a rifle that won't do 1 MOA or better.

how about those who use a .45-70, .30-30, and other guns with irong sigts to hunt moose each year?

quote:

Originally posted by Wooly ESS:
All of us like an accurate rifle as measured by groups shot from a bench, but there comes a point where field conditions cause more uncertainty in shot placement than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

So, what do you folks consider acceptible accuracy for the purpose of hunting big game?

To hunt moose and bears within 300 yards, I have no problems whatsoever with any rifle that is "enough gun," as long as it prints a 3-shot group of 2" at 100 yards.

In fact, quite a lot of folks shoot .30-30's, .45-70's and other guns off-hand using iron sights, and they still get their moose each year. They know their rifle limitations, of course, and get close enough to do the job efficiently.

Now, if I was hunting grouse by shooting them on the head only, and with my .22LR rifle (from a rest, too), a nickel-size pattern at 30 yards is perfect. I have a Ruger 10/22 with a target barrel that can do this and more.
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Accuracy relates to what one hunts or shoots, and the distance to it. That's all.

I myself have never been afforded the opportunity to shoot 3, 5, or 10 shot groups at big game. I do think group shooting gives you confidence in your rifle but it does not measure real world performance.

What you should do is shoot your rifle once at your chosen distance and be sure it hits where desired and then put it in your truck or on your ATV maybe your horse or boat and haul it around for a day and shoot it again to see if it still strikes where you intended. Then do the same thing in hot weather as well as cold and in moist conditions as well as dry.

The 1st shot is what matters most and usually it happens after your rifle has been exposed to bumps and jars as well as temperature changes.

3 shot groups are all that is needed ever for a big game gun as one does not get more chances than that any way. But 1st shot confidence is more important that group shooting.

I have more confidence in the man who can shoot 3 inch targets from field positions than a man who can shoot ½ inch groups off the bench.

Practice, Practice, Practice

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Reloader:
I prefer a Rifle that shoots Sub Moa for shots from 0-100 free hand, 100-200 off a reasonable rest, 200-400 off a darn good rest.
Reloader

Am I reading this right, you can shoot sub MOA at 100 yards without a rest of any kind?

Nope, not reading it right.

How's this:

I prefer a Rifle that shoots Sub Moa From a Bench for shots from 0-100 free hand, 100-200 off a reasonable rest, 200-400 off a darn good rest.

Sorry for the confusion.

I sure wish I could shoot sub MOA w/o a rest.

The more accurate the rifle, the more confident I feel on freehand shots as well as longer range shots off a field rest (Shooting Sticks, etc).


Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

I myself have never been afforded the opportunity to shoot 3, 5, or 10 shot groups at big game. I do think group shooting gives you confidence in your rifle but it does not measure real world performance.

It does however give you an indication of the accuracy potential of your rifle.Shooting a single shot at a target does not.

Stubble Jumper,

When we hunt, we are not shooting groups, we want the first shot to go where it is intended. I want my rifles to put the 1st shot where it counts and the second one very close to the 1st. Sure group shooting tells you how well your gun shoots multiple shots but I want to make sure that the 1st shot is the best one.

I feel the best way to gain confidence in your rifles 1st shot ability is to spread your group shooting over several days, maybe 3 shots per day with normal gun handling between shots.

10 shots with temperature, moisture and elevation changes as well as having the gun ride around in a gun rack and or scabbard between shots tell a fellow much more about the guns ability to bring home the bacon than 5 or 10 shot groups do under the same conditions.

If you can come back to the range day in day out and put your 1st shot where you intend to every time, you should be able to have the confidence in your rifle to take game cleanly.

quote:

Originally posted by captdavid:
Confidense is one thing, but anyone who can thinks that they can hit any better with a sub one inch gun than they can with a a sub 1.5" gun under most hunting coditions, on big game, up to 300yds is kiddin' somebody. There just too many variables. I have no problem with people who want 'one holers', the're just not needed. take your shot, I'm hiddin' capt david

Captdavid:
I did not say that I can hit a deer any better with a sub one inch gun. I said I will not keep a rifle that shoots a group larger than .75 at 100 yards.
I still maintain that confidence in my rifles shooting ability is important.

Yes shooting off the bench is important and that is what I do once I have the load worked out. It is important to figure how you will be able to get a steady rest in a field hunting situation and practice using that method if at all possible. I envy anyone who has there own property to shoot or a place where they can practice shots over 100 yards. I have no such place.

May all of your hunting be fruitfull.

quote:

When we hunt, we are not shooting groups, we want the first shot to go where it is intended. I want my rifles to put the 1st shot where it counts and the second one very close to the 1st.

If you never shoot more than one shot at a time,you will never see where a second shot would impact.If you had a severe bedding problem,you would likely notice the point of impact moving as you fired a three shot group.If however you only fire one shot at a session,you would probably not notice the problem until you needed that second or third shot in a hunting situation.By then it would be too late.

Notice I said "1st shot" not "only shot"

quote:

Notice I said "1st shot" not "only shot"

Really what is this saying?

quote:

What you should do is shoot your rifle once at your chosen distance and be sure it hits where desired and then put it in your truck or on your ATV maybe your horse or boat and haul it around for a day and shoot it again to see if it still strikes where you intended.

To me shooting your rifle "once" is firing "only one shot.