I have been hunting whitetail deer in SE Oklahoma for years but have a question as to why some seem to expire on the spot and others run so far, even when shot in a similar fashion. Now I know that a deer shot in the neck or backbone will go down immediately. I'm talking about heart-lung shots, that from examination, appear very similar and yet some dropped on the spot and appeared to expire immediately and others ran off. E.g., I have shot some with my little 30-30 at various distances that have fallen in their tracks (of course many didn't). I remember shooting one with my 45 cal. inline muzzle loader with a 240 grain solid lead bullet which destroyed a rib on entrance went through the heart and destroyed a rib on exit--the deer ran 50 yds. I shot one several years ago with my 30-06 and it, too, was a "perfect" heart-lung shot and the deer ran about 60 yds before running into a cedar tree and falling. What makes the difference? Any articles or research on the subject? (NOTE: I don't mind them running a little ways and don't have to have a gun that drops them all in their tracks, I'm just interested in the difference.)

For the same reasons that 2 individuals can be in the same car, be involved in a car crash, one dies, the other walks away, and may live, or die later. (i.e., the same physical trauma induced in 2 individuals, but the outcomes are drastically different).

The short answer is, we don't know. It is anyone's best guess.

This is a great question and fertile grounds for discussion, but there is no known answer.

Two theories for you:

First, "identical" shots may not be so identical. For instance, a bullet may hit a rib on entrance and partially fragment, with a significant fragment finding its way to or near some important nerve like the spinal cord, resulting in an instant fall. An "identical" shot my not result in any fragments damaging a major nerve, thus allowing the animal to run for some distance before collapsing from lack of blood pressure.

The second theory is more speculative. There are those who believe that the status of the heartbeat at the moment of impact, ie. whether the heart chamber is compressed and blood pressure is at the maximum, or whether "in between" beats and blood pressure is at minimum may have a profound effect. The theory is that if the blood pressure is at maximum, then the hydrostatic shock of the bullet can cause an instant stroke-like reaction in the brain. As I say, this theory is very speculative and I take no position as to its validity; I mearly pass it on as one potential answer to your question.

If you want to put them down,shoot them in the shoulder,not behind.When you break down their body structure they will normally go right down.I have found out on a relaxed deer(He doesnt know your around)heart & Lung shots can give you a Bang flop.If they have been pushed and are pumped with adrenaline ,they will usually run a distance after being Heart or Lung shot, OB

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

This is a great question and fertile grounds for discussion, but there is no known answer.

I agree with Doc. I've shot some animals in the heart/lung to were the lungs or heart were turned into pulp and had them run. But I have also shot them in the same spot and had them drop.

Same goes for shoulder shots. I've shot deer in the shoulder and had them drop, but I have also shot a Red Stag that proved to me that with both front shoulders broken, and lungs messed up, they can still walk away.

The simple physiological answer is that the animals that drop at the shot have had their central nervous system disrupted in a major way. Obviously those which run off still have a functioning (at least temporarily) CNS. I know this doesn't really answer the question, but should direct the inquiry.
How was the CNS disrupted with a shot to the heart lung region? Some believe in "hydrostatic shock" - or some equivalent effect. According to this theory, a shock wave is transmitted to the spinal column and the CNS disrupted. Others think it has something to do with exactly which nerves are severed by the bullet. Here, the CNS is more directly injured, resulting in complete shutdown of the system.
I don't know if there will ever be a good, definitive answer, as no two shots are identical, and even individual animals have slight anatomical differences.
Bill

the fun part about discussions like this is that each opinion or theory may seem perfectly logical and certainly could be the truth. But, each of those positions can be equally argued by something else.

kind of like global warming.

I think it depends on the individual deer. Just as some of us are tougher than others so are deer. If you were to 'sucker punch' 25 different guys and galls, in the chest, some would fall and some would remain standing. A guy, who shoots hundreds of deer a year in England for a living, said that deer live about 7 seconds after blood has been cut off from the brain. I think those that run are the ones 'left standing' and the ones that fall die before they can get up and run. The percentage of the B/Fs, for me anyway, is always higher in does and young bucks. That's just as it would be in 'sucker punching' women and young teen boys as apposed to 20 something athletes. Just my $.02 capt david
ps. I also believe that shots that seem to be identicel might not be.

Reaction to shock is my theory. I have shot pjeasants that went down with one pellet and birds that took a whole string and ran when they hit. Some believe that it is a reaction to bullet speed and impact. The 30-30 drops deer when the 257 Whizenbanger makes them run. Gianni

Like mentioned by OlBiker, they seem to run when already under tension and adrenalin. I have observed that wild boar shot on a bait site tend to run less when you wait a little, until they are already happily feeding. When shot immediately, in the very moment the come out of the woods a hear/lung shot will make them run, as a general tendency, not as a 100%-rule.

The same observation I have made when we hunt does and fawns. A doe who has just lost her fawn, is under heavy stress and can be shot, too, maybe because of still waiting for her off spring or, coming back because being called, nearly always runs off like hell, at least for some meters until running out of gas, so to speak.

We do not know in most cases if the wound and the damage to vital organs was rerally the same, many do not process their own deer which already gives us a good indication on what had really happened, many hunters do not really check the state of the vital organs after gutting. In order to gain statistically reliable information we do need a good and objective account on what had happened and a good amount of cases.

i think i've only had 2 b/f's from heart/lung shots in almost 60 whitetails taken with my rifle. i've gotten b/f's from spine, neck, and high shoulder shots, but i usually aim for behind the shoulder. tracking typically isn't difficult, and they rarely run more than 50 yards.
it's been my experience, that a deer shot low in the chest, to hit the heart, runs farther than my deer i shoot a few inches higher to take out the lungs. i have heard this is because with no lungs, the deer can't breathe, and will not go as far. if they have any function of the lungs and no heart, i think they can make it a little farther, but still won't go far.

and no matter how big your gun is, with a behind the shoulder shot, some deer will run, so no need to go bigger than the '06. though if you can shoot a bigger gun well, you can't kill one deader than dead.

After reading this thread It has me wondering if a guy was trying to maxamise the hydrostatic shock affect wich way would be better? A high speed wide exanding bullet say a ballistic tip in a 300 mag or a slower large caliber like a 35 whelen?

With heart vs lung shots it breaks down like this:

Take out one or both lungs and you have variables. Low (lower lung) lung shots can leave the heart pumping and some degree of lung function left. High (upper lung) shopts will presumably wholly disableall lung function, and may be equivalent to a heart shot if the pulmonary vein and/or artery are severed.

A heart shot disables the pump. No pump and it doesn't matter if the lungs are wholly intact or not. The animal can only go so far as the oxygen in it's tissues will carry it, and not one set further.

Lungs being the least dense tissue in the body will consequently transmit energy the least well of all the tissues. Put a bullet through a heart and a full heart can for all intents and purposes explode and wipe out both lungs very effectively. The converse is not true as we all are very well aware. In order to rupture the heart you have to run the bullet either through or very close past it.

Completely non-functional lungs with a functional heart will allow enough blood to circulate that the tissues can gather a little more.

Adrenaline constricts the blood vessels a lot. It conditions the muscle tissue for maximum anaerobic response Both conducive to putting off death. Further, with the vessels tightly constricted there is less rupture of the vessels due to hydrostatic shock. Hence less bleeding into cavities and tissues.

Like Saeed said, the only sure way to stop them dead instantly is with a bullet to the brain (even if I would be a little fidgety with him having to stop a Buff with a 270 AI and a TSX). No offense Saeed.

Searching for the answer to that question is kinda like trying to pick out which color toaster you want to stick your pecker in.
The important thing is that they go down and stay down. I'll let god figure out the rest.

the sure shot seems to be an explosive bullet in the neck or head.
the easiest to track seems to be a fairley hard bullet/ controlled expansion into the heart.
The easy shot to take (large target) is the lungs.
so you have to take the shot according to your abilitys and equipment at a given range and in a specific terrain.
If im hunting in thick or swampy wet terrain im not shooting one in the lungs.
pick your shots accordint to your ability and not your desires.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
the sure shot seems to be an explosive bullet in the neck or head.

I wouldn't really call that a sure shot because these are very small and in the case of the head sonetines very fast moving targets. Very easy to miss and the deer will possibly die later whith it's jaw or escophagus shot off. A friend of mine who tracks recently had to catch a smallish pig with no lower jaw. Still, it took his 2 jagdterrier several hours to catch it.

If the terrain is swampy, I would use a bullet/caliber that gives two big holes making it easy to track or shoot a little high and in front to take out the shoulder.

Like others have said it is basically impossible to have a matching shots. Animals are individuals just like humans, and there are so many factors which come into play it would be practically impossible to cover tham all.

But basically, the animal will live until there is insufficient oxygen in it's cells to support life, and the animal will still have the ability to move as long as the brain is still active, the skeleton/muscles are still intact, and the nervous system still links the two.

A heart shot stops the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain and the rest of the body, and as soon as the oxygen already in the brain is gone, death results. Damage to the lungs retards the ability to re-oxygenate blood, so as soon as the oxygen in the blood is gone, death results. Whatever movement happens until the oxygen is gone is unavoidable.

Exhale, then hold your breath and see how far you can move, thats stored oxygen in your system, when you start to get light headed, thats the oxygen getting depleted, and your brain starting to have trouble functioning. A lung shot has basically the same effect.

And bullet size doesn't matter at all.

The only way to be guaranteed to have a dead in its tracks result is a brain/spine shot. No matter if it's a 223 rem or 375 H&H.

This happens with all animals, its the nature of killing..Only a forward spine shot or brain shot is instantly effective, and then there are rare exceptions..

The instant kill is impressive, and is often the case with hi vel quick expanding fragmenting bullets, but if it fails and it does on ocassion, you have no blood trail and will sooner or later lose an animal, either by the bullet exploding on the surface or not leaving a blood trail...on the other hand a tough bullet that makes an exit hole, lets out a lot of blood and even though the animal runs 50 to 100 yards, it leaves a good blood trail and you can find it..I prefer the later as its more positive..

Also I like the idea of the slower killing bullets not creating the massive bloodshot carcass nearly as bad as hi velocity bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Also I like the idea of the slower killing bullets not creating the massive bloodshot carcass nearly as bad as hi velocity bullets.

Ditto, thats why I like my 375 H&H, it always exits on north american game, but with a large enough hole for a good blood trail, and very little meat loss with 270 and 300 gr bullets. Even if they run 50 yards, they are easy to track.

I've seen the exception with brain shots first hand. If you don't damage a part of the brain that controls motor function they are ineffective. My first deer rifle was an SKS 7.62x39mm. I used the russian surplus ammo that had been remanufactured with hollowpoints, but they had such a hard jacket they performed no differently than a FMJ.

The second year I hunted with it I made a poor shot on a doe, hitting the liver. She went down at the shot, but I couldn't go directly to her due to a depression between us which was impassable, so I had to circle around, losing sight of her. When I got to where she had been all I found was a quartersize spot of blood on the ground. Luckily I knew the area and made an educated guess as to which way she went. After about 75 yards I caught motion out of the corner of my eye, and turned to see her laying about 25yards from me with her head up looking at me. I fired again and saw her head snap back, then pick back up and look at me again, with blood oozing out of a hole right above her right eye! She was completly dazed, and I finished her wih the bayonet on the rifle. She never really started to bleed until the bayonet was pulled back out.

The bullet made a 30 cal hole in, and left a 30 cal hole out. I switched to soft points for hunting with that rifle, until I was able to upgrade rifles.

My experience is on whitetail deer only. I have made many behind the shoulder "heart" shots but only three have dropped at the shot. Thankfully though, where I hunt, if a deer runs 50 or so yards I don't need a blood trail to find it.

All sounds reasonable,good explanations.When I was a teenager my brothers and I watched as a 25 year old guy broke a window to get to a guy he wanted to fight(over a girl),the screaming of the woman got all our attention,as the guy got farther into the window a loud shot rang out and we watched as body parts exited the back of the guy shot with a 30/30 at 10 feet.We were about 50 feet at a store,the guy that got shot ran 80 yards and hit a ravine and fell.The police officer said the coroner said he died on impact but ran on adrenalin,the last thing the brain said was to run and he did.2 years later,a mile down the road, I watched as an off duty detective shot a very large man with a 38 special and this guy fell at the shot within a few seconds later died.Both were shot in the chest,I too think it has to do with the nervous system shut down,and damage to the spine helps shut down the nervous system also.I personally think trailing a wounded animal will just be a part of hunting,occasionally an animal will fall as if Thor's hammer hit him and some times they won't.Just my opinion from from seeing alot of kills.Drop-Shot

when i was younger and didnt understand anatomy as well All my deer dropped to the shot. i didnt have a deer move an inch from the time i turned 13 till i was 28. The reason was my rifle was zeroed 2.5" high and i would aim point on the shoulder knocking out the spine.
i never took long shots either.
now that i have a desire to save more meat i dont shoot them in the shoulder anymore and as a byproduct i have to track them on occasion.

There are proper scientific studies being conducted which explain much of this .www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14637 Read comments by Dr.Courtney

I didn't read the complete thread over there but stopped shortly after reading the message by Courtney with the following in it:

Within the realm of ballistic pressure waves achievable with even the biggest magnum and a bullet that transfers energy very quickly, you're only gonna drop deer in under 5 seconds about 70% of the time (with a shot to the center of the chest). Yet with humans, it's lights out 99% of the time with a good hit with a good .308 bullet.

Not sure about anyone else, but as soon as I read that, I basically thought, "Well of course, considering the differences between the path of the bullets for two very unrelated shots to the chest." Basically, it amounts to the apples & oranges comparison.

On a deer, did he mean the typical center of the chest broadside shot or one to the center from the front in the same way one would shoot a human in the center of the chest??

IOW, an erect human hit in the chest with a frontal shot will have the bullet likely hit lungs and/or heart and then either pass thru or pass very close to the spinal cord, a major component of the CNS.

In contrast, a chest shot at a deer is commonly taken broadside while it is standing on all fours. To duplicate a like scenario as a frontal shot to a human chest, the deer would need to be standing on its hind legs, and the shooter would aim somewhere between its front legs -- a shot more likely to mirror a center punch on a human's upper torso. It's an unlikely scenario, of course, but I bet the result of such would more closely mirror the reaction of a human.

As an example of how different two similar shots produce dissimilar results, consider what happened on my plains game hunt in Africa with my impala and my blue wildebeest -- two very different critters in regards to size.

I used my M70 .264 on both and shot each with a factory Win. 140-gr. PP. Both animals were facing me with their heads up.

First the impala:

He was standing still at approximately 120 yds. but had no idea I had him in my crosshairs. I nailed him in the brisket right between the tops of his legs. At the shot, he took off running at top speed, went about 50 yards and died in a heap. The bullet had done a complete pass-thru exiting near his tail and took out the heart and one lung on the way. I can only guess, but from the size of the exit wound, the bullet had expanded quite well.

The blue wildebeest was also directly facing me and didn't have a clue I was standing in the trees with my rifle sitting atop shooting sticks about 225 yds. away. When he picked up his head, I shot. The bullet hit with an audible 'whap,' and all four legs splayed out like someone had cut them off with an ax. He crashed to the ground DOA in a cloud of dust without so much as a twitch.

All my PH said at that point was, "Holy s--t!" because it was that final and quick. A minute later as we walked toward the now-still critter, the PH held out his hand and said, "Look. I'm shaking."

The well-expanded bullet, which I recovered, traveled from front to rear, stopping against the hide near the base of his tail. It, too, took out the heart and a lung.

Neither bullet had made direct contact with any part of the CNS of the impala or blue beestie.

On that same hunt, I drilled my nyala at 50 yards with a broadside hit to the vitals. He ran 40-50 yards before dropping dead. The bullet exited and had turned the heart into jelly.

A zebra took a shot right where the stripes come together at the front leg. He immediately went into high gear for 100 yards, then somewhat amusingly, literally jumped about 5' high, rolled in midair and crashed down on his back, dead in a heap with all four legs sticking straight up. The bullet stopped against the hide on the far side but also had taken out the heart and a part of one lung.

Then just this past Nov. in Colo., I used the same rifle and bullet on a mule deer buck at about 125 yds. It was a broadside shot while the buck was standing undisturbed among his harem of does. At the shot, he hunched up and then with his rear slung low, he took off on a tear. Although I knew that reaction likely meant a dead deer, I quickly cranked another round into the chamber and waited for a chance at another shot. It wasn't necessary. After about a 30 yd. jaunt, he piled up dead with lots of blood streaming from his mouth. The exit hole was huge, and again, the bullet demolished a lung and the heart. -TONY

It seems to me that adrenalin is the key factor. I remember being advised as a 14 year old boy by my father that when walking up to a downed white tail, always to approach from behind so that he didn't see me coming up to him.

quote:

Originally posted by gerrys375:
I remember being advised as a 14 year old boy by my father that when walking up to a downed white tail, always to approach from behind so that he didn't see me coming up to him.

Though it has little to do with adenaline, that's good advise regardless. If a still live animal decides to make one last escape effort, it will move forward and not backward. So approaching from the rear could save a hunter from being run over and possibly severely injured.

As for an adrenaline rush causing animals to run when hit in the vitals, I don't buy it. I've shot too many undisturbed critters of all shapes and sizes that have run various distances before piling up DOA. At other times, I have shot critters that were keyed up in the same vital areas yet did a bang/flop when hit. -TONY

quote:

Posted 05 February 2008 21:51 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by gerrys375:
I remember being advised as a 14 year old boy by my father that when walking up to a downed white tail, always to approach from behind so that he didn't see me coming up to him.


As for an adrenaline rush causing animals to run when hit in the vitals, I don't buy it. I've shot too many undisturbed critters of all shapes and sizes that have run various distances before piling up DOA. At other times, I have shot critters that were keyed up in the same vital areas yet did a bang/flop when hit. -TONY

Simple understanding of what happens proves this. Take out the heart with the shot and the blood pressure drops to virtually zero almost instantly. Anything the adrenals dump has nowhere to go and nothing to move it. But... with the CNS still intact and the muscles/skeletin intact the brain screams run and the legs can and do obey until they run out of oxygen.

The real question that might yeild a lot of knowledge is why do so many animal drop and not move with a heart shot that leaves the legs intact? It could be reasonably assumed that there is tremendous effect on the CNS. That is supported by the frequent, sudden, violent kick out of the legs at impact. What is different about those animal that drop and don't move to the the ones who make that last short burst.

Somehow I just have to believe that someone in DOD has done the study and has that answer.

i have never had one run after taking a shot in the neck or head.
go figure.

I have heard guys brag for years about dropping deer with heart/lung shots, and in the 25 years for hunting and killing 160+ deer, I had never had a deer drop to a heart/lung shot until this year. I shot a doe at 75 yards with a handloaded 150 gr Speer Hot Cor out of my 270 WCF, and she just dropped. I have shot MANY deer with neck shots and had them bounce, but this was a first for me with a shoulder shot.

I honestly can't say that the wound looked any different than the hundreds of others that I have cleaned for myself and others, but she didn't take a step.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
Simple understanding of what happens proves this. Take out the heart with the shot and the blood pressure drops to virtually zero almost instantly. Anything the adrenals dump has nowhere to go and nothing to move it. But... with the CNS still intact and the muscles/skeletin intact the brain screams run and the legs can and do obey until they run out of oxygen.

Yup. That's one reason why I don't go along with some huge shot of adrenaline causing an animal to run. When the cells release it, the blood is what moves it.

Now, I might be more inclined to support a notion that a deer disturbed BEFORE being shot could get that magic "adrenaline rush" since there's ample time for it to circulate.

I've shot several deer through the heart that ran and literally spewed blood forth from the wound to cover the ground and bushes at each point where the heart beat.

During the 1960s, I was sitting on a knoll in Colo. overlooking a large meadow when a mule deer buck came out of the woods and started to cross. I hit him in the heart at 150 yds. with a 150 gr. bullet from a .270 Weatherby magnum. He reared up on his hind legs, went over backwards, got up and raced uphill 75-100 yards into the woods where he died. On the way, his blood left a trail even Stevie Wonder could see. I could literally see the blood coming out in spurts, and there were 5' swaths across the grass about every 10 feet or so. When I dressed the buck, his heart and lungs looked like hamburger.

I firmly believe each shot is different and more dependent on how it affects the CNS, as you mention in your second paragraph. A similar shot an inch off in any direction might produce a completely different reaction in the same animal under the same conditions. -TONY

There have been a number of articles on this subject concerning Scottish open hill deer. 'Perfect' heart - lung shot deer run circa 50 - 150 yards, stop, wobble and fall over.

I cannot remember the actual article sources, but many appeared in "The Field" magazine over the years and have either been authored by Veterinary or Medical Doctors etc.

The brain and body muscles require oxygenated blood to function. Death, brain death occurs within a short time period if the brain recieves no oxygen and muscles do not function beyod 'spasm' type movements.

The theory given states it depends upon the state of flow of oxygenated blood around the body - heart beat rhythm at the moment when the bullet strikes.

If the heart has just given a big push of oxygenated blood around the body, then the animal's other bodily functions, and reactions can survive a short time without a functioning heart.

Additionally, animal behaviour is hard wired for "fight or flight". When a deer becomes suspicious, it's body prepares to run for it. Anything which occurs in the next instant - noise, sight, smell etc will trigger the head long flight of the animal.

I think this is supported by the observation that deer run 'blindly' in the direction they were facing when hit - death rush, analogous with 'headless chickens'.

If the shot is not so well placed, and the damage not catastrophic / 'immediately' incapacitating, then deer run up hill if lung shot, trying to 'breathe' as their lungs fill with fluid etc.

I think it is interesting that animals with higher metabolic rates - heart beats etc, like cats (lions / leopards) react more quickly to fatal shots than animals like moose, bears etc which have, if I remember correctly, slower metabolic rates.

KSTEPHENS
"i have never had one run after taking a shot in the neck or head."


Me either, til this year. I shot a great buck right under the white patch on his neck inside 20 yards from a tree stand using my .25/06 and 120 gr nosler partitions. Bang flop right? nope....the shot just about flipped this buck over, but he didnt go down and managed to make 150 yards before dropping. No blood trail in high grass too. I took me a fair bit to find him. After I skinned him out and followed the bullet path I was even more shocked. The bullet performed perfectly creating a wound channel about the size of a 50 cent piece from where it entered the neck to where it hit the lungs and turned them to jelly. Some animals are just tough. This deer didnt know I was there and was completely at ease when I shot him. I'll always remember that shot to. Heres a pick of him.

It's the nature of the beast..I saw a police officer shot in the chest with a 6.5 soft point run about 300 yards before they could catch him and stop him, then he died...so did the bad guy that shot him.