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Crazyhorseconsulting: Of course, I don't blame any landowner for making some money -and if stupid people want to hand him money for a stupid investment - well, if I was the landowner, -why should I stand between a fool and him spending money to give to me?  C'mon, Crazy Horse, we just want to keep these fools from wrecking the national economy. (BTW, I happen to think that prairie grouse are very much worth preserving -so why don't I hear the howls of protest from the environmentalists about harming its environment as I heard them scream about spotted owls in the Northwest -where tens of thousands of logging jobs were lost because of their protests? (Just asking and not meaning to put you on the spot) | |||
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Don't get me wrong folks, I don't want to see the towers on Public Land anymore than anyone else. Towers on Private Land is something entirely different, especially in Texas. As for the worth of say Prairie Grouse, there is no comparison, any life form is infinitely more valuable than human comfort or need, to a point. In Texas, and I am only going to use that scenario, Bobwhite Quail are in decline over most of the state. Now, many different researchers and groups are trying to find a place to lay blame, but if you talk to the 50 and over crowd that had or has had much experience hunting in Texas, quail seemed to really start declining in many areas when managing land for white tail deer gained in importance. Many folks decided that white tails would produce more income than quail, and also many don't understand that managing a piece of property for one species may be detrimental to the survivval of another. JMO. The land owners in the areas I normally roam around in all seem to be in favor of the towers. I know that I would not want to get up on Grand Mesa in Colorado and see wind turbines all over the place, but Private Land in eastern Colorado or some of the stuff around Lubbock or Amarillo would not really bother me. Lastly, and I really hope I am wrong, but as for the Sage Hens/Prairie Chickens/Sharptail Grouse/ Bobwhite & Scaled quail, those species may unfortunenately be designed for extinction. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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These wind towers are huge. I've never seen a Bobwhite fly that high. I farm in an area of mixed cultivation and rough canyon cut pasture land. We see quail all around old abandoned farm house sights more so than out in the middle of the pastures. We also spend the whole off season trying not to hunt deer with front end of our vehicles on our tar and gravel stripes of civilization. If the critters can get used to this, they would never notice the towers. Gpopper | |||
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That is highly probable.
Now I have roamed over a bunch of Texas in my lifetime, but I have never heard of that mountain, what part of Texas is it in? The ranchers and landowners I am talking to and listening to are up in the Young/Archer/Baylor/Jack and Wichita county area. I also see more and more wind generators every spring when I go out to Pecos county to do my hunts. I ain't saying habitat destruction isn't playing its part, but I think trying to discount the effect imported fire ants have made on all ground nesting birds and many other species of wildlife is  in its purest form.However, people that are managing land for deer are not destroying habitat, they are just managing it in a manner that is not condusive to quail. Also, last time I looked, it was up to the land owner as to whether wind mills would be erected on their land, unlike the Public Land some of the other folks responding have talked about. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Because that was an issue along the Pacific(ists)Coast, heart land of various "Greenie Groups". The spotted Owl was a Cause Celebre and was milked for all it was worth. What amounts to basically a chicken, is not going to garner that type of fervor among the various preservationist groups. JMO. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I been watching this discussion since its inception. I just want to throw my two cents in. You can read it, or skip over it. Save the birds? Save the atmosphere? Save the earth? Can we save it all? Can we save any of it? We are in Utah on a wind farm project. It's big. It's well regulated and well run. Suppose it endangers a bird, or three birds. Would the optimal answer be to shut the project down and crank up a coal-fired power plant instead, the emissions which also would threaten the bird(s), albeit not with a quick splat or slice, but over the long term? The GEs and Clippers actually do produce a significant amount of power. Once the initial investment has been made, the towers turn and produce. On the solar farm in the Mojave - Sen. Diane Feinstein is opposed because it will threaten the delicate desert ecosystem. The Governator responded by asking - If you can't put a solar farm in the middle of a desert, where the h*ll can you put it? Someone will ALWAYS have an issue. Wait 'til we start to harness tidal energy. A whole new crop of complainers will surface. Or maybe, it will be the same complainers, re-invented. How about if we have the Native Americans who run the puking, spewing, filth-belching power plant just north of Las Vegas could be in charge of all power projects. They seem to be an independent nation, immune from US regulatory policies. It won't matter what they do. Maybe I have a skewed view on wind now. I thought coal power was great when we were on a coal-fired power project in northern Nevada, and another (lignite) in eastern Texas. I think wind is great now. As an aside, I NEVER thought ethanol was viable, even though we built an ethanol plant in Nebraska. That job paid the bills. Okay, maybe that was three cents worth. You can keep the change. | |||
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Well, your talking to different folks than I am and seeing things from a differetnt view point, because I see plenty of windmills going up in Jack county southeast of Bryson. In fact it seems like everytime I go thru from Graham, on the Old Finis Road, then up to Rock Creek Road and across to Barton Chapel and come out on FM 4, there are more wind mills going up. I got into this same type pissing match about the effects fireants have on wildlife, including quail, and the "Studies" done by Dr. Rollins and other "Scientists/Researchers", and still believe that the reason those folks are discountint the effect of fireants, is simply because they have no realistic way of controlling fireants at this time. It is just like what I stated earlier, managing land for one species, which over most of Texas is White Tail Deer, is not especially condusive for a healthy quail population. Also, because I do make contact with lots of folks during the year, yes, they and I will admit that fire ants are not the ONLY reason that quail numbers are declining, because quail are declining all across their range, and in some areas and with the scaled quail, there are no imported Fire Ants present, and they to are decreasing. Problem is, many folks close their eyes to basic facts and also close their mind to such things as the fact that there are Native fire ants, and Imported fire ants. Nature allowed quail and other ground nesting species to cope with the Native fire ant in North America, but not the Imported fire ant. I have a tendency to want to believe eye witness accounts and my own experiences and not what some Paid Biologist is trying to peddle. Bobwhite Quail/Red Harvester Ants and Horned Lizards all began disappearing from their former range as the Imported Fire Ant expanded its range in the south and south west, some how in my way of thinking, that is not coincidental. Are Imported fire ants the leading cause in the decline of quail, no, they are not the Number 1 agent, but their effects do not need to be totally ignored either. It is simple biology, if a species is declining and breeding numbers are reaching minimal levels, ANY vector that destroys a net of eggs, fire ants/feral hogs/snakes/road runners/feral cats/skunks/possums/coons add infinitum, reduces the potential for that species to continue to survive. Those Paid biologists are not going to set there and tell everyone that to see an overall increase in Quail numbers across their range, that all feral hogs and fire ants are going to have to be eradicated, less emphasis in managing for white tail and more emphasis in re-establishing a "Short Grass" prairie type environment, and farmers will have to spend more effort in planting and harvesting wheat/oats/milo, and less acreage for corn/soybeans/cotton. They are not going to do that, because things have changed way too much since the good days back in the 50's and 60's and early 70's when people could go out and find good quail hunting over a lot of the south and south west. I remember being on places as a kid in the late 50's thru to the early 70's that realistically, a hunter without a bird dog, could go to, and buy just walking around a few acres kick up enough coveys to bag a limit of birds in one afternoon. Those days are gone completely as far as truely Wild Bobwhites are concerned. The only way Bobwhite Quail are going to remain as a huntable species is going to be on intensely managed places and only then on a put and take basis. I have actually seen more Bobwhites this year in northern Young and southern Archer counties than I have in 10 years, The friend I am working for getting places ready for deer and dove seasons has some really good quail ground, but even then, we are only seeing one maybe two coveys a day and a few singles or pairs, and that is spread out over several thousand acres, covered in a days time checking on other stuff. There are birds out there where the conditions are right, but because the demand for deer out weighs the demand for quail, those remnant populations are going to have a hard enough time holding on let alone expanding and increasing. Don't judge me by what I am writing, as I am merely stating what I have seen and learned about during my time on Earth, and all of what I have typed is just my opinion on the situation. I had the great fortune as a teen ager back in the 60's to accompany a man from Newcastle one morning on a quail hunt, just a few miles out of town. We were hunting behind his pair of pointers and while we only jumped 3 coveys, and that was on a 35 acre place, I felt like and still think of that hunt as the finest experience I ever had in my hunting career. Watching those dogs work as a team, experiencing the covey rise, the sounds of the shots, watching the dogs find and retrieve the downed birds, was, in the words of young folks today, Awesome. As a realist and a student of the wild, I know that those days, especially in hunting truly wild Bob whites are fading into the past, never to return. I recently heard a very excellent phrase and I find it the truest statement that I have ever heard in my almost 59 years. "Time Is The Best Teacher, Unfortunately It Kills All Of Its Pupils". Lastly, you made this statement:
Cases pending in Texas? How can there be "Cases" pending, when ownership of wind has not completely been established? Ownership of the wind that blows across a piece of property belongs to whom? Can it be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that wind generators substantially reduce the amount of wind blowing across one property on to another? Water/Oil and Gas are one thing. Whether it is surface water, which can be controlled or diverted, or Oil or Natural Gas that maybe bound up in shale formations or in pockets in the various rock layers spread across many thousands of acres in any given region, that can be tapped into by directional drilling, those can be controlled and manipulated. How exactly does one go about controlling a force of nature such as the wind? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Restricting access to public hunting grounds due to wind development is a big problem in the west, and should not be overlooked. The regular travel through these fields by maintainence personnel does have an effect on wildlife poulations. Developing these "wind farms" with "public assistence" is my main concern. There would be no need for federal grants and tax incentives if wind power was really economically viable. Using my tax dollars to push another pie in the sky environmental pipe dream is not sound government policy. Solar power has been around for 25 years (or more) now, but somehow we don't see the power grid being converted to solar. Sure, it may work to power the odd DOT weather station, or open a driveway gate (all lower power consumption activities) but it just isn't economical or practical to run a grid off solar, and really never will be. You will never see the factories making wind turbines, or solar panels being run off of power generated by the turbines / panels they produce. Bill | |||
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CHC: Cases pending are based on damage to property, property value and nuisance issues. You have possibly driven kindred Mountain road and not realized it. The once open vista from one of my favorite Texas spots once frequented by Indians, Trailhands and others now has its serenity and vistas graphically and horrendously changed to line the pockets of politicians and moneychangers with tax money from the people largely without input or consent. It is not my land, my family settled in East Texas in the 1830's, the family that I know in Jack county came in the 1840's. I know Dr. Rollin's personally, he is an avid Quail Hunter , not a "Hired Gun". You should spend time with him. I am unaware of him"peddling" as you imply. I have hunted quail throughout Texas and other states, with dogs, without dogs, on foot,horse, jeep etc for the past 50-ish years. My eyes and ears and mind are open, largely to reproducible ,verifiable facts of scientific origin. particularly those facts uncovered by establish experts and replicated by others. Sue: Ethanol is only viable on local levels, that is production and use in EVERY town from local resources , without huge transportation distances, and using the ethanol to power the farm machinery itself. Additionally, the ethanol/methanol/other alcohols need to be largely cellulose produced from the local biomass-- essentially-- not feasible. If you attempt it on a large scale as in Brazil the fossil fuel use in clearing, planting distributing,etc all expend more energy and finances than are recovered. ( Not to mention the loss of forest canopy, loss of topsoil to erosion and pollution by the burning of the timber. That's correct, Brazil is not using a vast amount, just burning it where it falls.) DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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No arguement here, but do you have a viable answer to the problems America is faced with over how to keep the country functioning the way ALL OF US expect it to be done with all the negative attitude by Some Group, toward exploration and drilling for fossil fuels/developing more nuclear energy sources/solar/wind/hydrogen. How many of us on this site really down deep inside are willing to or are eager to give up our computers/central heat and air and all the 10 zillion and one things that make the real quality of our lives what it is today. Despite of, or in in spite of all the perceived "Problems" with our country, the average citizen of the United States is better off than the majority of the rest of the world. How damn many of us grew up with out air conditioning/indoor plumbing or electricity? How many of us can even remember or admit to even knowing someone that did? There has to be trade offs for things to stay the way they are or get better, fossil fuels will run out some day, wind/solar/nuclear and hydrogen are all going to have to be worked on, along with tidal energy as was mentioned by someone else. Maybe our best bet at citizens of the planet, would be to concentrate our efforts into making sure that we are able to keep things going so that something will be left to pass along to future generations, besides a burnt out shell with too many humans trying to live on it. It would be nice if all extant species sharing the planet with us figured into that equation, but, for humans to continue to survive, that may just not be feasible. The other option, and my personal favorite, especially if I can be at Ground Zero when it happens, is an "Extinction Comet" that will wipe out 3/4ths. of the life on Earth including, no, make that especially Humans. We are the organism that put the planet into the shape it is in today. We cannot control our population numbers, or use of energy and the associated pollution generated by both those activities, so how does anyone realistically figure that ANYONE can come up with a "New" energy source that some one or some group is not going to find fault with and lobby against? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse consulting: It is difficult to try to object to so eloquent a statement as your last post - and I'm not going even to try. You are correct,of course. What I'm saying is that wind/solar sources of energy are perhaps (at a guess) decades down the road -maybe 50 years or more)Even if viable then, we still need what pushes jets and locomotives and forms a basis for all our plastics and the list is endless as to what oil is used for in plastics,chemical uses. I happen to be old enough to remember when air conditioning was not in universal use. I grew up on a country property where local farms had outhouses and the Rural Electrification Administration was just beginning to get electricity to such rural areas. I'm perfectly willing to want the improvements of tomorrow -but that's just what they are - on tomorrow's calendar. Meanwhile, today, I want us to reap the proven benefits of oil and coal - and not punish today's society by chasing what may be will-o-the wisp benefits - much like stumbling after a desert mirage. Anyway, I have enjoyed reading your thoughts. | |||
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Power from Nuclear, Improved Solar, Improved coal, Improved oil/gas and yes, wind, wave hydroelectric , etc.,etc will be needed to continue to attempt to meet "demand". And possibly, fusion, hydrogen and as of yet other unproven methods. I'm not against wind turbines , just the manner in which the projects get done with often hidden public grant money in smoky back rooms without viable, reproducible studies and input from the taxpayer. The benefit of these projects while having more inherent value than the "Carbon Voucher Trade Schemes" lining the pockets of Al Gore and others which do ZILCH in reality, do have some power production and some benefit, but at what cost? As to A/C , not until I was about 14, an no, not many grew up like that. Individual wind and solar are viable options now, it's just that most folks aren't independently minded enough to do it on their own. It is sad, but Cities rule-- the country folks will have to tolerate ever increasing intrusions and increasing taxes to care for the cities. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Okay, I just realized what road you are talking about, Kinder Mountain Road, and yes I have driven it with my family many times headed back to Azle after driving up to Bryson to eat at Smith Corner. Believe, inspite of what you or anyone else may think by reading my posts, I do feel strongly about land owners losing their rights to do with as they choose with their property, hence the main reason I do not like "Slick" Rick and his Land Grab Trans Texas Corridor BS. The cases you are talikng about however, , those have been filed by the people you know I suppose? Now, in all reality, are they not trying to do the same exact thing as Rick Perry, trying to take their neighbors ability to do what they wish with their property away from them? To me, it seems that they, thru whatever their reasoning are trying to take away the right of a neighbotring land owner from making decisions as to how to manage their property. Yes, it is a shame that such a beautiful piece of country is being changed due to greed on some folks part, but do the folks you are friends with ever stop to think about the changes their family brought forth on that land that the old cattle drovers and Indians did not like to see? Have you or them ever thought about those changes? Changes that were made to the land, before there were lawyers and law suits to protect what was. As for Dr. Rollins, and Dr. James Kroll, and any body else in their respective professions, that started out as TP&W biologist, working for the Public sector, that took their skill/expertise/knowledge and moved it to the Private Sector so that they could A, have more control over their work, and B, make more money and gain more noteriety, is in my opinion a "Hired Gun" and their research and findings are, in my book subject to speculation. Sorry if that offends or upsets you, but in my opinion, taking knowledge and information that could help the public in general, i.e. the segment of the Public that relys on Public Hunting land for their hunting, and offering it to the highest bidders, people that can afford to implement the management practices these experts recommend, and then offer the results to clients willing to pay the price, and then, trying to convince the Public, that TP&W could implement the same practices on their properties, while trying to satisfy the wants and desires of the Hunting Public in General, is a hired gun mentality. Rollins and Kroll may both be fine upstanding individuals, in fact, after some recent articles I have read that Dr. Kroll wrote, my opinion of him has modified somewhat. I do not blame these individuals for the choices they made in their careers, I think all of us will sell ourselves to the highest bidder if it will allow us to achieve the goals we desire in our lives. I just do not think these folks should be quoted as being the final authority on all things white tail deer or bobwhite quail or any other species for that fact, because their findings will be tainted to some point due to working to solve the problems or supposed problems on one particular piece of property. This is all just my opinion. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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When someone makes that comment (even rhetorically) I struggle to understand exactly what was meant. We are a natural part of the planet, therefore the changes wrought are as natural as any other force. In fact, it makes as much sense for humans to be a planet-changing force as any other component of the natural universe. Judging ourselves as immoral due to the impact of the last 500 years of technology on a 5 billion year old planet seems a bit harsh to me. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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This statement very simply does not fit with my philosophy nor the way I have lived my life. As to discussing the particulars of cases , I am not allowed to do so. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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tiggertate, think what you will, in no way am I saying that humans are immortal. I am saying that humans, are the only species on this planet to have the ability and capacity to have made the changes that are effecting us, All Of Us at this time and for the foreseeable future. For a species, any species to have been on this planet for the comparitively short time humans have been, and to have made the planet altering changes that we have wrought, that constitutes my assertion that Humans are directly responsible for the conditions of things as they are. If you do not understand the simplicity of that, show me ANY other species on this planet that has during their time on it, changed the entire face of the earth by their own independent action, not just locally, but globally. Beavers can dam small streams, did beavers harness the power of the Colorado River? Bees build hives, have they built cities and towns covering hundreds of thousands of acres and removing said land out of the system. How many species that have bee around a lot longer than humans have built roads that spanned continents, built dams that covered millions of acres and destroyed the homes of other species. If according to some beliefs humans were put here as Stewards of the Planet, in my opinion we have done a damn poor job of taking care of it. At any moment, thru human efforts/ingenuity and greed the entire planet or parts there of are a heart beat or two away from a total ecological disaster. If that is harsh to you, my apologies, to me it is reality, and to me, that reality means we have to either make do with what is available and figure out ways to better utilize our remaining resources, or accept the fact that thru our own inability to control our own numbers and our demands on the resources of the planet, that we arte headed for our own oblivion at a steadily increasing pace. JMO. DuggaBoye here is your statement:
Am I to take by your statement that you are independently wealthy and were so from birth? Did you go to college? If so, did you go to the college that was the choice of your parents or to the one you thought would benefit you most in your chosen career? If you do or did have a career, did you sell your knowledge and abilities to the company or individual paying so so wages or did you try employment that payed top dollar for your services? If you are a farmer or rancher, do you sell your livestock or crops to the lowest bidder or do you try to get the best return for your investment? Now think back to my statement before you answer, and realize, that few if any of us, "Sell" our knowledge/experience/abilities or the fruits of our labors/efforts to the lowest bidder. Now, have you always "Sold" yourself to the lowest bidder? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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If want to instill some sanity into the "alternative" energy debate, go on the DOE website and do the math. If my memory serves me, currently we derive 55% of our power from Coal; 20% from Nuclear; 7% from hydro; 5 percent from "wind/solar" and the rest from oil and natural gas. If all the proponents of wind/solar and other "alternative" "green" energy are right we are at most going to get about 15% from those sources in 20 years. At the same time, without replacement or expansion (which is "environmentally taboo"), the amount produced from those other "non-carbon sources", i.e. nuclear and hydro, will be reduced down to a total of about 12% of our total needs. This puts the total from "non-carbon sources" at 27% of our total needs. It currently stands at about a combined 30%. So with all this hoopla we will be getting more of our energy from coal, oil and gas. So you see the whole "green" energy push is not about the climate, or non-carbon based energy, it's about money, power and politics. | |||
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"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Selling oneself vs providing goods and services are remarkably different concepts. Have been and done many things: farmer, rancher, pilot, physician, entrepreneur, missionary, volunteer etc. I have not previously been accused nor thought of as "selling" myself. Worked my way through the college I could afford. Borrowed (and paid back) and worked my way through medical school. My "goals" were largely independent of the monetary aspect , as I have been informed numerous times by friends and an Ex-wife whose goals were more monetarily oriented. Your decision to paint "everyone" with your conceptually broad brush has innumerable notable exceptions in history. As individuals we are all different, ones perceptions are ones reality, a reality that others may not see. Thus , conversations such as theses take place DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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You are correct there. I have never claimed to look at things the same way others do, but I do claim not fooling myself into thinking some higher ideal makes working to better myself, is not a base form of selling myself to the highest bidder. All of that however is OT from the issue of wind turbines and your comment about not being able to discuss the cases, as if anyone involved in the cases is monitoring this site. My point remains, your friends are trying, thru legal manuevering to dictate what their neighbors can or can not do with their land. Even though I may not agree with their neighbors choices on installing the wind generators, I agree even less with their attempt to control their neighbors use of their lands. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Yes, I may not like it, and I have the option to sell my property and move, or to bankrupt myself fighting something I will never be able to change.
A polite way of saying obtaining the best or most advantageous income or position for ourselves to make our lives as we want them to be. The impolite, realistic term for that, is Selling Ourselves Or what We Produce To The Highest Bidder. We all do it one way or another. That is still not the point of the OT, nor does it have anything to do with your friends lawsuits whetehr you discuss them or not. They and their ancestors made changes to the land that irrevocably modified the land scape, they did it to add value to their property and to help them realize income. That is all the folks wanting the wind generators on their property are trying to do. The State Of Texas was set up with the intentions of attracting new people to move here and have the right to do with their property as they choose. If that was not the case, then it is likely the ancestors of your friends would not have moved here in the 1830's and your ancestors would not have moved here in the 1840's. One point here before it is brought up, my family on my Dad's side were interlopers, they did not get here until 1907 from Tennessee, my Mother's side of the family I am not sure of, my Grandfather on that side was born in Midlothian Texas in 1887 and my Grandmother on that side was born down around Uvalde in 1885. That aside, going back to an earlier statement, from what I am seeing and hearing, more folks up in that area are for the windmills than are against them. Do I like the looks of the things, NO. Do I think they are the Savior of our state/country No. Do I think that you, I, tiggertate or any of the other geniuses talking about this have a workable solution that everyone will buy into to fix what is wrong, Hell No. This is a good discussion, but no matter what any of us say or come up with, the PTB's running this country are not go9ing to be able to set down and come up with a plan that everyone will like or agree with. Best of Luck to your friends and their lawsuits, I really do hope they win, simply because it might make people stop and think about what they may be losing over what they hope to gain.   Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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