From the pages of
Sublette Examiner
Volume 2, Number 44 - January 30, 2003
brought to you online by Pinedale Online
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Wolves hit North Piney elk

by Cat Urbigkit

Mike Schaffer of LaBarge is an elk feeder on North Piney - or was an elk feeder until last Friday when wolves eliminated his job.

"It's been an all-winter battle and I finally lost," Schaffer said in an interview this week.

Schaffer said he began feeding in early November and at last count, was caring for 388 head of elk on the feedground.

"Everything was going good," Schaffer said. "But the wolves started hitting us in December and it's been problems ever since."

Although there are at least five wolves running in two groups in the area, the recent problems on the feedground involved the pack of three, Schaffer said. In this pack, there are two grays and a black.

Schaffer said he hasn't been finding dead elk that the wolves have killed on the feedground itself because the wolves chase them up into the trees, leaving only the blood trail out in the open.

Schaffer said the wolves will run into the elk herd, "get two or three wounded and bleeding like hell," then ease off. Schaffer said it appears the wolves "let them bleed until they get good and weak," before moving back in on the herd.

Schaffer said he's found dead moose that the wolves killed but didn't eat, with just the faces and guts ripped out.

A week ago, the wolves hit the elk, "it took ... three days to get them back to the feedground and get them settled."

Settled they were, Schaffer said, with the animals calming down and coming right up to the sled for their daily dose of hay.

But last Friday when he went to feed, Schaffer followed the wolf tracks up the snowmobile trail.

"You couldn't im-agine the blood ... up and down the feedground," Schaffer said.

The blood trail went right to the feed row and continued up into the trees, he said.

Some of the elk came back, Schaffer said, "But the wolves hit them that night from above.

"They wreaked havoc up and down that creek bottom," Schaffer said. "God, I just hate this," Schaffer said, recalling what he saw and experienced.

This time the blood trail starts a full three miles from the feedground, Schaffer said.

The elk didn't come back so Friday's feeding was Schaffer's last.

"The elk just left," he said. "They just can't take that much pressure ... They've got to get out of there."

The pack of three wolves using the North Piney and Bench Corral elk feedgrounds have been documented killing and chasing elk on the feedgrounds for the last two winters by the elk feeders. These wolves, because they haven't been documented to have successfully raised pups, are not included as one of the 10 packs assisting in acheiving wolf recovery in the Yellowstone region.

"They've got my elk feeding job," so Schaffer will concentrate his efforts on his other enterprises, which incidentally, also stand to be effected by the four-legged protected predators. Schaffer ranches in the LaBarge area and is also a hunting guide.

"It's a bad deal ... everybody ends up paying for it - sportsmen, ranchers, everybody," Schaffer said.

"The Game and Fish is not to blame here," Schaffer said. "There was nothing they could do."

It's a fairly common misperception that WG&F had nothing to do with the wolf reintroduction. But the state wildlife agency actually endorsed the program. An Oct. 17, 1994, letter from Wyoming Game and Fish Deputy Director John Talbott to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service stated: "Please accept this letter as documentation of the Wyoming Game and Fish Department's commitment to the reintroduction of gray wolves to the Yellowstone Ecosystem. Pending approval of the proposed rule, we will proceed with development of a state wolf management plan to be submitted to the (Secretary of the Interior) for approval."

Letters from each state wildlife agency in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana were required before government officials in British Columbia and Alberta, Canada, would allow wolves to be taken from those provinces for use in the reintroduction program.

Has there been any progress reguarding those who recently have been trying to leagalize hunting wolves? My take on this issue is in my signature.

[ 02-15-2003, 04:46: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Our Tennessee solution to dogs chasing deer should take care of it. SSS

SSS

Set Snares Shutup

Daryl

The best thing that Schaffer could have done was to get some wolf lovers out to the site of carnage and let them see for themselves that wolves don't just take what they need but desvatate the prey animals.

Is it a bad time to discuss the fact that a herd of semi-domesticated elk have been created that comes to the sound of the tractor pulling the hay wagon? That didn't know a wolf is a predator? Kinda like the enclosure hunts in various places?

This has been a real concern of mine ever since the reintroduction.

Biologists have sprung a tornado for a predator on elk and deer. While elk are no strangers to predators such as mtn lion and bears, these are solitary hunters that have some difficulty killing in large numbers.

By contrast, the modern elk herds have never seen the likes of big pack predators such as wolves. Their cunning and survival insticts are far more intense than any in the wilderness. These intellegent animals take down even bison. Elk are no match for a group of hungery wolves. They will continue to depleat elk and deer and have no serious challenges from other predators and are literally kings of their domain.

They will populate and prosper as nothing else does in the wild as they are like African lion prides, with the exception that the male will kill more readily with the females.

Dog breeds are highly developed and adaptable hunters in packs, without a open seasons on the wolves they will proliferate as never seen before.
This needs to be brought into check immediately.

SSS SSS SSS SSS SSS SSS SSS SSS I know that's repetative and redundant. So too is a wolf population totalling more than one of both genders.

Sounds like they know what they've got, but it reads like pen raised wolves, or wild dogs.

I had a friend in Texas who blamed coyotes for losing some four-horned sheep. Turned out to be his neighbors German Shepherd mix, which he shot, and other dogs from the area.

I'm kind of semi-pro-predator. We try to exterminate them, put housing developments in some of the best hunting country of 40 years ago, then can't figure out why the coyotes, bears, lions, etc. are so close to houses.

I don't see any reason to go on a rampage to kill every last wolf, grizzly, black bear, coyote, lion, fox, bobcat, etc.

The only predators that had to be elimenated were the meat hunters 200 and some odd years ago who damn near killed off everything worth hunting in our country.

One lurid story doesn't turn my stomach, or change my mind. There is a solution for those three wolves. I'm still trying to figure out three to five wolves "elimenating" 388 elk.

beemanbeme: The problem is not just Elk being fed on winter range to maintain viable (Huntable) herds but folks both in the west and back around West Virginia have populated the Elks former ranges to the point that they are living, farming ranching and making freeways where the Elk used to winter and freely roam! So - do not condemn the winter feeding programs that occur in a few areas (Montana for instance does no winter feeding and in fact will issue you a citation if you do feed wild Deer and Elk in the winter)! The correct problem to be addressing is if you want Elk Hunting by humans to continue in the Rocky Mountain west. If you want the Elk destroyed by the already OVER POPULATED Wolves and do not care about Sport Hunting of Elk then you are displaying the correct attitude!
Kensco: I am not sure if there is a Wolf problem down in Venezuela but here in the Rocky Muntains overpredation by Wolves, Mountain Lions, Grizzly Bears, Black Bears and Coyotes are wreeking havoc on our Big Horn Sheep, Mule Deer, Elk, and Moose populations! I have never read anywhere or heard anyone propose eradication of the offending predators like you allude to in your posting! I have been to very hearing I could find regarding predation, I have read every article I can find on predation, I have spoken with ranchers, Hunters, butchers, Game Wardens, Chamber of Commerce workers, National Park workers, Forest Service administrators, USFWS officials, militia members, one of the founders of the RMEF, SCI members and hundreds of unafiliated but concerned about predation citizens and I have never once heard anyone relay the position you are espousing! And apparently directing at those of us affected by this predation problem. So I think you are WAY OUT OF LINE directing that ludicrous statement AT ANYONE! I certainly do not want to see the predators wiped out! I DO want them kept in strict check! Whole industries are dependant on the Big Game herds and Cattle and Sheep ranching. Do not poo poo the effects unlimited predation will have on the western portion of the United States!
Big Game Hunters and their Sportsmans associations and incredibly vast amounts of money they hve invested have brought our herds back from un-Huntable and unviable (unable to sustain themselves) numbers to healthy - viewable populations that are viable and Huntable and have been for many years. I for one do not want to see our Big Game Herds hurt any worse than they already have been by the already over populated Wolves, Grizzly Bears, Coyotes and other predators that prey upon them. I think the correct way to save the game herds and the related industries is by immediately and strictly controlling the numbers of Predators!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

We may have gotten close to exterminating bears, wolves, bison, and other game, but the main thing to remember is that we didn't.

We have a large wolf population in Alaska and Canada. We also have lots of moose, and caribou. However, any time predators and pray are not managed, the predators will kill the pray. This is a well known fact in Alaska and the Yukon areas of Canada.

For approximately 9 years, our past Governor stopped the wolf management programs we had been using to keep the wolf populations at bay, so now we have several regions where the wolves have almost exterminated the moose population. Bears kill moose, but bear hunting allows for some control of the bear population. We can hunt wolves, but these animals are very hard to approach and kill, since they usually stay our of view or use the trails through the brush.

Any State can have a healthy predator and pray population, but it better be managed in a scientific way instead of the emotional way animal-right groups prefer. Leave it to the animal-right biologists and all you will have left are wolves.

The idea is not to kill all the predatory animals, but instead to manage predators and pray to maintain a balance. But this balance should always be part of hunting, and trapping. Our past Governor decided to practice sterilization of wolves, instead of allowing hunters and trappers to take care of the problem.

It does not matter if a wolf has "balls" or not. It will kill pray to extension regardless if it is sterilized or not.

[ 02-17-2003, 05:13: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Hello;
Amen, Ray.
Griz

In late September, a buddy and I were standing on one side of a ravine at the south end of Muddy Lake, WY, looking down at an Elk feeding area maybe 2000-3000 yards to the south. Is not too far from Pinedale.

Is this likely to be the same one discussed in this post?

Sorry to hear about the job ... and sorry to hear about the Elk. The resident herd isn't that large to begin with here.

beemanbeme - The folks are just getting the wolves accustomed to the tractor sound for when they are killing the cattle being fed. Wouldn't want to spook the lil' darlins'. I guess the elk are just a real good thing to practice on, huh?

[/It does not matter if a wolf has "balls" or not. It will kill pray to extension regardless if it is sterilized or not.][/QB][/QUOTE]

Ray
I thought they were a bunch of idiots when they sterilized a bunch of wolves in the Ashiak area of the Yukon. It is true that a fixed wolf can still kill game but to my suprise, the sterilization of the wolves was successfull. The Caribou have come back to where they have opened over the counter sales of licenses.

Myself, I would rather just shoot or snare the wolves. In some areas poison would do the job. The only problem with poison is you can not salvage the hides.
I don't think we should eliminate all the wolves, but most of them.
Coyotes are anouther problem. They are not worth skining.

Daryl

Daryl: I don't remember in what area of Alaska the sterilization took place, but it may have helped somewhat. However, a couple of fur traders and entrepreneurs offered over $400.00 per pelt for wolves caught in the same area, and according to the trappers that was the reason why the caribou population has increased in that region.

But we have a couple of regions where the moose populations have declined dramatically, while the wolf population has increased. A couple of years back, a 9-year old kid got bitten a few times by a wolf that was trying to drag him into the brush, and around Fairbanks wolves kill domestic dogs every now and then. Last winter, I think, a musher lost a dog to the wolves ring at the edge of town. They raided her kennels during the night, and killed one of the dogs.

Trappers around here catch a few wolves, and that helps somewhat. But more aggressive methods will probably have to be used in the near future. Trapping is well organized here, and those folks (Native and other Alaskans) know how to maintain a healthy wolf and game population, since their lives depend on sound use of these resources. I know a few outstanding trappers, and know very well they don't want to kill too many wolves, just enough to maintain a balance.

[ 02-17-2003, 11:46: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Ray,

We have the same problem here as well. Dogs have been eaten on the end of thier leash. I have shot several wolves in my yard this winter. My neighbor was woken up late at night recently from her dog barking at the back door. She went to investigate and when she looked out the window, she saw a wolf standing at the bottom of the steps. The wolf ran away when she turned the yard light on. I shot the wolf in my yard two days later.
I have friends that are trappers. They are concentrating on snaring wolves lately. They are keeping track of how many wolves are in thier area and how many they snare. As good trappers should, like you have said, they want to maintain a healthy balance.
In rural areas, I think there is no place for a wolf. I will shoot any I see. If I am out in the back country and the season is closed I will leave them be.

Daryl

Whoa, lets not come down on the Beeman too hard. Introducing the wolf into Yellowstone was like introducing an exotic. He had no competitors nor any naturally occuring limiters and a whole bunch of prey that didn't have the slightest idea what a wolf was. And so he did the wolf thing: screwed and ate and ate and screwed. But stockpiling elk may not be much different. There has to be a happy medium. If we are to sustain the wolf and the elk, a balance has to be achieved. Neither the wolf nor the elk should be looking for a handout from man. They both should view man as a super predator. A balance is going to be hard to achieve as nature's choice is not a balance but rather a feast or famine. I think in a few years things will even out. But for it to even out, I think there has to be some sort of wolf coursing or hunting or trapping.
Kensco, I remember when coyotes started showing up in Tenn. They were accused of every foul deed that occurred. From joe pilgrim not getting a deer to male pattern baldness. I did some predator control trapping there and for every coyote I caught, I'd catch 3 dogs.
Here in West Virginia we have a viable population of coyotes, yet we are over-run with deer. Still, every yahoo that doesn't get a deer does so because of the %@#!!*^ coyotes.

Yup ... today we have lots of deer. The coyotes are doing WAY too well.

I wonder how long the deer will hold up.

I think I'd rather have wolves. Much too controversial though.

Hope others will join us in hunting the coyotes.

Mstarling, I'm going to guess the deer have enough years of living with deer running dogs and feral dump-offs that a coyote is just another pain in the butt. At present, I would guess that there are enough road kills to keep the coyote in good order without the phyical strain of hunting his own dinner. Oh, he may pick off an occasional poochy or kitty for dessert but the motorist of WV are providing the main course.
One thing I will guarentee: he is here to stay. In Okla, they poisoned them, trapped them, ran them with dogs, called them, shotgunned them out of low flying planes and generally tried to make things hot for them. It all had little effect on the coyote population. Naturally occuring mange and worms seemed to control them about as well as any method.

The truth, which most assiduously avoid,is there is no balance in nature. When predator numbers get too high the prey numbers are depleted. At this point the predators move on or starve. Eventually their numbers go down and prey species increase. So you have not a balance but a pendulum.
Wildlife consevationists (which should include all hunters) endeavor to maintain a "balanced" population. Some like to include predators in the equation while others do not.
That wolves attack semi-domestic elk at feeding stations is not surprising. Nor is it too surprising that these elk lack any knowledge or experience in dealing with predators.
Here the fluctuations in the elk population are related most closely to changes in hunting regulations from year to year. This in spite of a wolf population that varies according to whom you speak. When a large amount of cow/calf permits are issued the population goes down. When none are issued the population goes up. When too many bulls are killed so that cow-calf ratios are down the population is also down. It is interesting that many of those who snivel so loudly about the slaughter of elk by wolves would cheerfully shoot 3 elk a year if they were allowed.
The encroachment of human residences on wildlife habitat and the destruction of this habitat is undoubtedly the biggest factor in the decline of most species around the world. Overgrazing by domestic animals has created deserts since times of prehistory and continues to do so. Modern ranchers with university educations will still allow the range to be overgrazed (and then usually blame the elk).
I like the predators and scavengers as well as the prey species although I do on occasionally show myself to be a predator of both. If I'm out camping and can hear wolves howling it adds to the experience. If I go berry picking and know I have to be alert for grizzly that's as it should be.
This year one of the neighbors had a cow die about 600 yds from my house (it was a sick cow). After a period of time the coyotes did start coming around. Now, the time was when I would have jumped right into shooting those coyotes but I figured there was little point in shooting the coyotes unless I really preferred to preserve that carcass to give my beagle something to roll in!
In the end, because we are trying to maintain a balance, there are times that wolves have to be shot. At the same time, if we do care to attempt a balance they do have to exist. Regards, Bill.

Something that people always seem to leave out of the discussion, is the fact there are more than a few of us here that depend on the meat for food. I made under ten thousand last year. I can't really afford to go to the super market for meat.
If some interested party will send me an extra $1500 a year, I will buy at the market, and not hunt. Or I could go on food stamps and let everyone get a chance to pay for feeding me. This is Appalacia west.

Bill,

Your pendulum assertion is quite accurate. I recently went coyote hunting at a place I was sure would be teeming with coyotes for various reasons. Instead what I found was that there "were" indeed lots of yotes, that is were as in past tense, all that was left was the poison that the DWR placed to protect the limited entry deer herd and old dog tracks. The pendulum swings both ways..

Some animal-right biologists (we have some of those in Alaska) are always telling the public that once the wolves reduce the moose population, the number of wolves will drop. I imagine that would be the case if you fence-in a moose family with a wolf family. In this instance, the wolves will kill all the moose, then each other, and finally starve to death.

Out in the wilderness, the wolves will kill all the pray nearest the to pack or packs. If there is enough pray the packs will grow in size, which in turn requires more pray for more mouths to feed. Once they kill most of the pray and go hungry some may eat each other, while the rest will either stay, or move out to "greener pastures" and start another killing cycle. This cycle could take place around your town (eating domestic animals) if they run out of game.

Hunters in Alaska kill approximately 3% of the game. If any balance is possible, this balance can only be achieved by continuous management of game, to include predator controls when needed.