I'll split this up in several sections.



Part 1: The elk hunt



I just got back from a 10-day elk and moose hunt here in north-central BC. The first full day of hunting a buddy and I got the drop on a nice 6X6. He was the herd bull in this area, and had at least 30 cows with him. My friend was using his pet M70 Winlite 270 and 140 grain partitions I had loaded for him. I had my M70 358 Norma loaded with 250-grain North Forks.



From a distance of about 175 yards, we got a good shot at the bull. The bull's right side was toward us, almost broadside, slightly quartering away. My friend shot first as I watched through my scope. At the shot it appeared the bull had been hit, but he was still more interested in looking around at his cows than in falling over. After a few seconds of this, I shot. I have had the Norma barrel on this rifle for about a year but this was the first time I fired it in anger. First observance was a "smack" louder than I had ever heard before as the bullet struck the ribcage. I've shot a large number of animals, but never had I used anything larger than a 300 Wby. Second, the bull took one stumbling leap downhill and crashed on his face. Can you say decisive?



Here's a photo of the bull. My friend hit it first, it is his bull, his first bull actually and I'm proud of him. However, it is me in the photo as I haven't asked if he minds his photo on the internet.







Part 2: The infallible bullet fails



We recovered both bullets from under the hide on the far side. My buddy had made a high lung shot, perhaps a bit too far back for a quick kill. I couldn't quite believe it when I recovered the bullet, it had not expanded, the front had deformed a bit and it had lost the rear core. The only logical explanation is that the bullet tipped, but there was no underbrush between us and the bull when he shot. On a rib maybe? The recovered bullet weighed 53 grains (38%).



This is a case where the "at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail?" argument doesn't fly. The elks reaction was minimal, and I have no doubt it would have run a hell of a long ways, and possibly been lost, if I hadn't finished it.



Murphy was in full effect here. This summer I had convinced my buddy that he should go to a stiffer bullet than the 150 Hornady, and talked him into using the Nosler. I stayed away from the Barnes and such as we live in different towns and working up a load from scratch would have been inconvenient to say the least. I tried to go with the 150 but the local store was out of stock when the time came to load for him. Hence the 140s. And now the first time he used the partitions we recover a twisted chunk of metal and the Hornady's look pretty good to him. Just when you think you've got it all figured out...



Part 3: One for the nit-pickers. Was the North Forks performance adequate?



The terminal effect on the elk was impressive. It was done immediately. My bullet entered at the rear of the right shoulder, took the top off the heart and pounded the left shoulder. I was surprised to see the bullet under the hide on the left shoulder. As you can see, it looks like something out of an advertisement.



The 250 grain bullet, started at 2810 fps, had a recovered weight of 247.2 grains (99%). The unfired bullet has a length of 1.306". The recovered bullet has a length of 0.77", the shank under the mushroom has a length of 0.49". It still has a nice long shank for straight-line penetration. Expanded diameter ranges from 0.675" to 0.736", with an average of 0.71". It did everything you could ask...but go through the animal.



How many people would happily continue to use this bullet, or would you demand that a 250 grain bullet from a 358 Norma exit an elk on a broadside shot through the shoulders?















For the handful of people on here that care, the cartridges are the 358 Norma "long neck" on the right made from untrimmed 300 Win brass alongside a 300 Win for perspective. The bullets are a 308 cal Hornady 180 grainer, a 358 cal 225-grain B. Tip, a 358 cal 225-grain triple shock, a 358 cal Speer 250-grain hot core and the 250 grain north fork.

Rick,

Cannot see your pictures. Did you paste them into the "image" function (do not use the url function).

ASS_CLOWN

Sorry, I havent' tried to post a pic for a while. Does it work now? Thanks.

1- NICE BULL
2- nice shooting
3- why did you let your friend shoot something THaT big with a gun and bullet THAT small?

4- what part about recovering the bullet from the almost died in it's tracks elk leads you to think it could have done better? From their website it looks like it performed perfectly.
http://www.northforkbullets.com/358-250.htm
IF you wanted to insure complete penetration the 270gr might have been a better choice because they indicate it is a tougher bullet
http://www.northforkbullets.com/358-270.htm

I really don't see the problem with the performance. As I have posted else where I always shoot heavy for caliber bullets if they work for the rifle. The 250 was apparantly a great choice for what you did. If you want to try a bullet tht seems to penetrate everything, try the Speer 250 in .358. A bear, tons of deer, white tail and mule, several elk(all between a friend and I) and we have never recovered a bullet because of complete penetration.

as for the .270 bullet failure, it is just asking too much of that little pill I have seeen .270 fail on normal size white tail, on elk is above and beyond, no matter who makes it.

I was on a moose hunt with family members when they tried the 270/140gr bullet trick on a calf probably just barely larger then your elk. 11 rounds later it finally died.

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot subscribe to the practice of shooting any animal THAT big with a bullet that small. And I don't care if "uncle buck" has killed 100 6X6 elk over the years with one round from his trusty rusty .243

Thanks very much for your detailed post. Really puts things into perspective. That North Forks bullet looks perfect.

If I were you, I'd send this thread to Nosler and ask them to do some explaining, or try to anyway.

Lawcop, I didn't say I was dissatisfied. I asked the forum, "would you be satisfied?" Thought it might make for an interesting discussion.



Re the 270, with properly placed bullets, elk and moose are not armor plated. My friend's shot, high and to the rear portion of the lungs will be a slow killer with a cannon, not just a 270. If he had hit the bull where I did, it would have done the same thing, perhaps just not as spectacularly. Bullet failure notwithstanding. 11 rounds into a calf moose is not bullet failure or too little gun, it's damned poor shooting! In BC, we get to see a few moose shot, most locals tip them over quite nicely with 270's, 30-06's and 300 mags.



Me? You know what I was carrying which answers that question. In all honesty the 358 Norma makes me sleep better at night in grizzly country, it is not needed to whack a moose. Moose fall over quite nicely to my little 284 Winchester sheep rifle, not to mention the larger calibers.



It's funny you mention the 250 Speer. I assume the plain old hot core? That's a bullet on my "to try" list along with the 225 grain triple shock. I've heard great things about the hot core 250 from some Yukon moose hunters. I'm just a bit concerned on how it will stand up to that grizzly at 30 feet while clocking along at 2800. Any thoughts?

Nice bull, & good shooting on your part. I like NPs, but anything can & usually does happen. I will disagree w/ you though on the high lung shot, if made w/ a bigger hole/bullet the animal will die faster. It's the reason I like to hunt elk w/ bigger bullets, a bit of insurance. The more I use & see the NFs used, the more I am willing to drop my beloved NPs.

Rick,
the reason the Northfork probably did not penetrate the skin is because of it's great diameter and round shape.

I also recovered a 180 grs/.308" bullet last weekend from a moose cow, probably about the size of your bull elk. Meat weight about 360#.

When you look under the hide on the off side the hide is ripped of the body in a pretty big circle around the bullet, telling me the bullet hit with pretty much force and would have come out on the other side if it had sharper edges.

Maybe that's something Mike should think about if it's possible to have the wings a little sharper.

I just got pictures from a friend of mine who just got back from afrika. He recovered two 300grs/.375" bullets. One from buff the other from a frontal shot on a grey wildebeast. Looks just like the one you recovered.

RickF,

Quote:

---

My friend's shot, high and to the rear portion of the lungs will be a slow killer with a cannon, not just a 270

---

It ALL depends on the size of your cannon. I have hit elk too far back in the lungs before, and they did not go far . . . actually they went practically nowhere like 10' or less! Once you drive a 50 you won't go back to those itty bitty 358s! Spectacular, is a shoulder shot on an elk with a 50! Explosion is NOT an understatement! You loose a LOT of meat though.



200 gr, 308s. Those are GREAT varmint bullets.



ASS_CLOWN

ASS_CLOWN, it's settled. I'm a big freaking' girly-man. My 8 1/4 pound 358 Norma is enough gun for me.

From now on the answer to the question, 'Who's your daddy?" Simple! ASS_CLOWN's your daddy. Before today it never occurred to me that was a phrase I'd ever use!

.

I was on a moose hunt with family members when they tried the 270/140gr bullet trick on a calf probably just barely larger then your elk. 11 rounds later it finally died.

---

Either poor shooting or inexperiance in shooting moose. Alot of moose when fatally hit will just stand there and then slowly tip over. I'v seen people empty their guns on a moose, reload and keep shooting even though the first hit was fatal. For many years all I used was a 270 and took many moose and deer with it.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Rick,
This is the picture of the bullet recovered in the Wildebeeste ass when shot from the front.

CAN'T TELL you what the 250Speer will do at 2800. I know it will shoot through the full length of deer and through the shoulders of elk and bear... out of the lowly .358Win plodding along at about 2260fps. and still gave complete penetration so I simply don't know what they do when they hit something.

Maybe I am just prejudiced, but I use the .375H&H for Moose, .340wby for caribou and nothing smaller then the .358 for deer.

My inlaws were not the greatest sportsmen in the world but the bullets or the fragments recoverd from the moose simply showed horrible failures for penetration. Of course this was almost 40 years ago and I know bullet technology has come a long way, take for example the Nosler partition...uhhh.... never mind.

IF it was me shooting the Norma, I would be using the 270gr loads. I like holes all the way through the animals.

Rick, that was a great story, and you took a very nice bull!

Before your friend decides that Hornady's a better elk bullets than Nosler Partitions, maybe I should send him photos of framented Honady Inter-Locts that I've pulled out of elk. On average, the Partition is a much, much better elk bullet than the Hornady, and your friend's experience with that particular bullet was highly unusual.

You experience with the .358 Norma just goes to prove that a good big gun beats a good little gun any day of the week, provided that you shot it well, and you certainly shot well.

That recovered North Fork bullet is textbook in its performance, and I would be thrilled with the work it did for you. I do NOT demand that a bullet exits on big game animals. If a bullet kills quickly and is found under the hide on the opposite side, it's done its job for you to the letter, and all of the energy it had to deliver remained inside the animal. What more could you ask for?

One thing I'd like to point out is that EVERY make of bullet provides a failure now and again. I've heard guys describe failures on occasion with all bullet makes (not North Fork so far). But none of them are fool-proof, and I've also heard professional guides from Alaska to Tanzania describe bullet failures from just about all makes as well.

AD

Allen,

I get so confused reading up here. ALL of the EXPERTS that post here claim that in order for a bullet to be worth a DAMN it MUST ABSOLUTELY PASS COMPLETELY through the animal!

According to these experts, dumping energy into the target is completely UNNECESSARILY and actually COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE since the energy dump slows the bullet and may cause the bullet NOT to pass completely through.

The reason these EXPERTS claim that complete pass through is NECESSARY is for ease of tracking.

In your vast experience have you noticed any trends, with regard to the need to track the quarry, between bullets which have a minimal energy dump to target but provide complete pass through and those bullets which dump ALL their energy into the target with the bullet coming to rest under the hide on the off-side?

Also, interesting in drawing from your vast experience with regard to bullet diameter aka caliber. Have you noticed a trend which would indicate that bigger is in fact better?

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

Hey Rick, Allan Day is correct. I will try to do something as well. I have 2 friends in Colorado and one in Tucson which have all killed several elk and all with a 270 and 25.06. I will see if they can send me pictures so I can post them. The guy in Tucson is a guide. He has a few 270 bullets (partitions) from his elk kills.

Now one of the guys in CO shot 3 elk with his 25.06 and Ballistic Tips. Yea, he killed them but had to unload on them too. I told him he might consider a partition or Aframe next time. He has a friend load for him and doesn't know much about the whole 'bullet choices' issue...he's a point and shoot hunter.

And to ASS Clown: I'm simply asking, ok, so don't get mad...but are you being a bit sarcastic with Allen Day? Or are you sincere?

A-C, When I say "bigger is better", my observation is that on big animals, killing power improves significantly when the cartridge class is .300 magnum and above. That's the most accurate line I can draw for myself. Quite honestly, I've shot the same number of elk with a .300 Win. as I have a .338 Win. and killing power was equal in each case. I haven't seen that the .375 H&H is materially better than either one of them. All of these elk went down very quickly, and without fuss.

For the fun of it, I'm taking my favorite .338 Win. loaded with a 210 Nosler load elk hunting in a week, and I suspect it'll quickly iron-out whatever elk I shoot at very well. It has before. I remember one big five-point I shot at about 100 yds. while he was running through the timber. The 210 gr. Nosler Partition hit him in the left shoulder, and I distinctly remember his eyes rolling back in his head as soon as the rifle went off, and before recoil took him out of my field of view. He hit the deck instantly, and the bullet went clear through.

That was one episode in which I had an absolutely decisive kill where the bullet went clear through. I've had the same sort of knock-out kills when the bullet DIDN'T go through. I don't see an advantage one way or the other. The late John Jobson once wrote, "Why follow a blood or any other trail?", and I agree with that statement. Shoot straight with enough gun and enough bullet, break down the framework, get 'em on the ground ASAP, and you don't need to follow any bloodtrail.

But I know, things don't always work out that way. I hate to say this, but often there is very little blood trail to follow even if the bullet does exit. The natural elasticity of the hide often covers entrance and exit wounds as the animals changes his stance from the point at which you shot his, etc. You may get a blood trail, or you might not. Don't count on it either way.

If you've shot well and the bullet has performed as it should, any trail you follow won't usually be all that far........

AD

Allen,

I appreciate your response, I truly do.

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

BULLET PERFORMANCE?? is a trick question.

THe PERFECT bullet performance would be the bullet expends all of it's enrgy, except the last few foot pounds so it can fall to the ground on the far side of the animal and be there to be picked up off the ground.

Failing that "perfect" load, the choices are use a load/bullet that is guaranteed to go all the way through, which is wasting energy which may or may not have been better applied in the animal
or
use a combination load/bullet that will dump all it's energy into the animal and may or may not exit, and plan/hope that it penetrated enough before running out of gas to have done what it needed to do. Included in that plan is the use of a bullet that will upset so the question is, how does it upset and on what "schedule" does it start to expand. Too fragile a bullet means the bullet can discintegrate and cause injury but not quick death. Too solidly made a bullet and you are back to passing through shots.

So
the REAL question is to which school of thought do you believe in. THe expend all energy in animal school at the possible cost of not having he right bullet but dammit ALL then energy is in there,
or
the I want that bullet exiting school knowing that the bullet is wasting energy on the far side but at least you will have 2 holes in the animal, and that is NOT a bad thing in the trade off scheme of things.

Those are great theories, but the truth is there is no expanding bullet on Planet Earth that anyone can guarantee will either 100% of the time penetrate all the way through all animals from deer-size to moose-size without fail, or else 100% of the time expend all of its energy inside said range of animals and be found perfectly lodged under the hide on the off-side.



Even the best expanding solids designed for thick-skinned African game cannot be counted upon to penetrate all the way through every time.



And do you know what? It doesn't make any real-world, honest, nut-cuttin' difference either way, except in the realm of theory. If your expanding bullet expands and goes all the way through, you have yourself a dead animal. If said bullet exapnds, goes all the way through, and is lodged under the hide on the opposite side, you also have yourself a dead animal.



This morning, I looked over my collection of recovered bullets, including Trophy Bonded solids, Hornady Inter-Locts, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Sierras, Fail-Safes, Speer Grand Slams, Nosler Partitions, plus fragments of Sierra Game Kings and Match Kings, Hornady Inter-Locts, Speer Grand Slams, and Nosler BTs. I have 38 bullets in this little collection, which represents about a 12% recovery rate for all makes of bullets that I've shot at big game animals over the last thirty years, and these animals range from N. America Coues deer to African Cape buffalo.



So some 88% of the bullets I've fired at BG animals went clear through. And even though this vast majority of bullets got inside and went clear through, I can't recall any less-than-satisfactory kills resulting from these exits. By the same token, almost all of the bullets that stayed inside resulted in extremely satisfactory, decisive kills.



The kills that were NOT satisfactory where when bullets just barely penetrated, then blew up. These blow-ups came from Nosler Ballistic Tips, Sierra GKs & MKs, Hornady's, and GSs. In every case, these blowups have resulted in the animals running for some distance (up to 200 yds.), and sometimes this included entrance wounds so destructive that capes that I intended to save were destroyed.



So I guess by my own testimony you could conclude that as a group the bullets that went clear through performed somewhat better. But in reality, the premium bullets that expanded, penetrated, and stayed inside performed with complete satisfaction. The poorly constructed bullets were the only ones that did not.



No bullshit, tinfoil bullets for me ever again, and I don't care if I'm hunting deer or eland. The worst bullets I've ever hunted with -- by a country mile -- have been Sierra MKs, and the most satisfactory expanding bullets have been Nosler Partitions.........



AD

Allen,

When I grow up will people refer to my hunting experience as VAST? You better be careful or you'll end up as Ray Atkinson's clone.

All bullshit aside as usual I agree with almost everything you wrote. That 270NP from the elk looked a lot like the ones I have in a jar. NP's are not pretty but they are always my first choice for an expanding bullet. The fact that they partially fragment is what makes them so deadly. Having said that I just don't think the 270 makes a big enough hole for really big game even with NP's. The eskimos where I lived in AK liked 270, 243, 223 for all big game and loved to tell you about all the game they shot with them but they never spoke of the game they lost.

I absolutely agree with you about BT's, Sierras etc. Who cares if they shoot tiny groups? Group size does not kill game.

As for complete penetration I like it but if the bullet destroyed the vitals and stayed in I'm just as happy. Would my elephant this year in Botswana been more dead if the solid had exited his head. I don't believe so.

BTW did you book a brown bear?

Regards,

Mark

Mark, I don't consider my experience to be vast at all, because I know so many more guys who've shot more game than I have, and in more places. I do feel very fortunate to have hunted as much as I have, however, and hope to do much more in the future. The youngest girl is a HS junior, and when she starts college I'll be able to hunt a whole lot more than I do now. Life does run in cycles!

I hate to say it, but I'm not as much of a .270 and 7mm fan as I used to be, especially for game bigger than deer. I swear by .30 and above for most of my hunting any more.

I haven't book another bear hunt as of yet. I do hant a SE Alaska BB hunt with JR booked for 2006, but John S. and I have had that one booked for more than two years.

I'd like to hunt interior or mountain grizzly in the spring again, but since we've discussed it I haven't revisited any plans for that. Let's talk about it this week.........

AD

35Whelen,

Well stupid me! I though it was the energy of the bullet which accounted for the Diameter of the wound channel, and the momentum of the bullet determined it's penetration.

Live and learn I guess. Thanks for the education.

ASS_CLOWN

IMHO the Northfork bullet worked perfectly. I also think that a 270 Win is a marginal gun for a big bull. After shooting several elk with smaller calibers and seeing several more shot with them, I started using my .35 Whelen. Everyone has dropped within 40 yds. with either.

Guys, thanks for the replies. I also feel the North Fork in my instance did a perfect job, and nothing more could be asked. Nice mushroom, long shank left for straight line penetration, high weight retention, what more can be asked?

Allen, you might even like the rifle. It's a virtual clone to Chuck Nelson's "Leeper" 7mag. Bill built this one as well. It's reliability is unquestioned, and it's fits me better than any other rifle I've owned.

RickF Where do you source your North Forks, and how much are you paying for them?.Excellent pics BTW and good luck out there.

I have read all the posts here with much interest, because I have become a big fan of the North Fork bullets after shooting Nosler Partitions for years. I must add that I have never had a Partition failure nor have I lost an animal while shooting them from Deer up to Elk, Moose and Brown Bear. ----- Accuracy is my thing, with the toughest bullet I can find. I have also had excellent accuracy with the Nosler Partitions, Barnes X and XLC's and Swift A-Frame bullets while taking many Deer and Elk. ----- The North Forks are in my opinion the most accurate tough premium bullet on the market today. I have used them this year in Africa on Cape Buffalo with a .416 Rem 370 grain bullet that was perfectly mushroomed at 99.1% weight after traversing from the last rib through everything he had and lodging between the 1st and 2nd rib at the backbone in the neck. I finished him off with a 370 grain North Fork Solid with a flat nose through the shoulders, a complete pass through. On the same trip I used a .358 STA and 270 grain North Forks at 2850 fps on Zebra, Impala, and Hartebeest. All complete pass throughs except the Hartebeest which after hitting the shoulder and passing through the backbone at the neck it lodged in the offside hide perfectly mushroomed at 85.5% weight retention. I was very impressed with the toughness of the African animals as compared to Elk and Moose I have hunted in North America. ----- For instance by comparison last year in Colorado my son shot a Bull Elk through the shoulders with a 270 grain North Fork at 2950 fps and the bullet passed through and killed a bedded down cow on the other side of the Bull 25 yards away. We dug the North Fork bullet out of the opposite side of her skull after noticing a bloody spot on the side of her head, and the North Forks are easily distinguished from any other bullet by the grooved rear shank, plus he and I were the only ones on the mountain shooting the North Forks. The bullet that killed both Elk were shot from my second .358 STA that shoots all bullets approximately 100 fps faster than the STA I took to Africa but still, the Hartebeest retained the same size bullet within it's body at 85.5% of it's weight, and it was 1/3 the size of the Bull Elk. The bullet from the two Elk retained more weight at 92.2% which was more retention than the Hartebeest bullet, can that be answered. In my opinion each animal and bullet is a story unto itself, angle of entry, bone encountered, skin toughness, etc. ----- I took my Elk this year with the North Fork bullet, last year my grandson took his Elk with a .338 Lapua with a 240 grain bullet, I have taken my Elk the last 4 years with the North Fork bullets, my son shoots them in his .300 Win mag, a buddy shoots them in his 7mm Ultra mag, another buddy shoot them through his .300 Ultra mag, all reloaded by me and all have pin point accuracy. I am not taking the credit for all that accuracy, I attribute it to the North Forks, and I thank Mike Brady each and every time I order for making such a good bullet. All I can say is that if anyone beats the North Fork it may have to be lazer guided. This is my experience and excuse me for getting on my stump but when I find a good bullet that does it's job I tend to stick with it as I was with the Noslers for 30 years before the North Forks came along. Good shooting.

Rick,

Awesome post, and congrats to you and your buddy on a fine bull!

I hope your buddy doesn't condemn the Partition based on this one experience. It is a much better bullet than the Hornady.

I have recovered an 300gr .375 A-frame from a bison that looked similar to your buddy's Nosler. It had much higher weight retention though, as it did not shed any of its lead. I don't know what caused the "failure", but the bullet tumbled on its way through the buffalo and ended up lodged backwards in the pelvic bone! The other two bullets I recovered from the same bison were picture perfect after penetrating both shoulders and coming to rest against the hide on the far side.

FWIW, I also agree with Allen Day and some others on exit wounds. I don't get hung up on a lack thereof. If the animal is shot well, you won't have to track far regardless of whether there was an exit wound.

Congrats again Rick!

Cheers,
Canuck