I know alot of you guys hunt w/ the various plastic tip bullets. After doing some testing w/ my .280 I'm curious if anyone uses them for anything larger than deer/antelope? They seem like they would work OK as long as you kept the shots on the far side of 100-150 yds where impaxct vel. is low enough to keep them from fragmenting too mcuh.
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
I have taken four elk and two bull moose with 180gr ballistic tips out of my 300ultramag.All but one bullet exited and that one had travelled through the ribcage and shoulder of an elk before stopping against the hide.Muzzle velocity was 3375fps and the shots were 80 yards and 200 yards(1000 and 1200lb moose)and 300,300,310 and 377yards(elk).Impact velocity on the moose and most of these elk were higher than the muzzle velocity of the same bullet out of a 30-06.My partner killed a large bull moose at 20 yards with a 200gr ballistic tip out of his 338winmag.
Stubble, the 180 & 200gr .308 NBT must have thicker jackets than the 140gr 7mm I tested in wet phone books. The bullet pretty much came apart @ an impact vel. less than 3000fps. Penetration was obviously much reduced. I haven't hunted w/ the bullet but would probably only use it for smaller deer/antelope @ distances previously stated. I'll have to test some of the 200gr .338s?
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
Fred338-I have taken over a dozen(probably closer to twenty actually) big game animals with the 140gr ballistic tip out of my 7mmstw.These included a few pronghorn and bighorn as well as several canadian whitetails and mules that weighed in excess of 300lbs live weight.In the vast majority of cases the bullets exited and no animal made 50yards before dropping.Most dropped in their tracks.I originally only thought of ballistic tips and sst's when I first read this thread but I have also used the jensen j26 bullet(plastic tipped boattail) to take a grizzly with my 338x8mmremmag.At a distance of 40 yards the bullet entered the throat and travelled the length of the body stopping at the rear hip joint.As the bear swung sideways the second shot broke both front shoulders dropping the bear.With the availability of scirroccos,interbonds and accubonds(the j26 is no longer made) we now have plastic tip bullets which are actually tougher than most lead tipped bullets.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
SJ, That's kind of the thought for this thread. I think the "new" generation of poly tip bullets are really different. The ACCubonds I tested held together pretty well. I wonder why they made them in 160gr when they make ballistic tips in 140 & 150? Partitions just give me that comfort zone I like, but I may try some bonded bullets out this fall. I hope I can get Nosler's 225gr/.338 to shoot in my .338-06. It may just replace my beloved 210grNP!
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
I wish I could find a good plastic tip bullet hunting bullet, but I haven't found one yet. I have tested partitions and scirocco, and they both come apart to easily. A partition or failsafe offers so much better performance, they are not even in the same league. While many hunters use them, I have never seen someone who has tested these bullets, side by side, chose a plastic tip bullet in regard to terminal performance.
Ah Oldfart, smart minds think alike. I recently tested several brands of 160gr bullets in my .280 & the NP held it's weight well & penetrated farthest of those tested. The NAB has promise for the guy looking for a 300yd plus bullet. In my limited test, weight retention & penetration were both better than the "conventional" bullets tested. Solvi, those bullets don't look pretty. Were you happy w/ the performance?
quote:Originally posted by fredj338: Solvi, those bullets don't look pretty. Were you happy w/ the performance?
No, those bullets don't look pretty. They look like they inflicted a lot of trauma and killed an animal rather quickly. Or isn't that what a bullet is supposed to do?
Posts: 13258 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001
I shot a large white tail with my 280 using the 140gr NBT. The range was 212 yards according to the laser. It was a poor shot admittedly since it entered the anus. Still, it only penetrated 12". The core separated and total weight of the pieces found were 87gr. It ran around 50 yards before stopping when a finishing shot was placed properly.
It worked, but I can't help but feel that it could have been better especially from a penetration point of view.
Several years earlier I shot a good sized mule deer with a 7 mm Rem Mag using the 140gr NBT. First shot went through the ribs on a broadside shot at 80 yards. Didn't stop the deer at all. No bullet recovery, but two tiny holes for the entry and exit. Second shot through the shoulder put him down for good. Rather messy though. I think I'll stich with the Partition or Barnes X from now on. Had good success using it in all calibres.
The NBT is absolutely the most accurate hunting type bullet I have used, but accuracy doesn't kill cleanly. Bullet performance does.
I still use the 120gr NBT in my 280 for coyotes. Works like a charm out to as far as I care to shoot.
Looks like you and I have the same problems with "plastic" tipped bullets. I've tried Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady SST and Scirocco's in .257, .277, .284 and .308 all with the same results. They start coming apart at velocities over 2900 fps.. Ranges on deer size targets(up to 325 lbs.) were from 130 yards to 275 yards and every time penetration was lacking and lots of meat ruined. Personally I want a bullet to retain 90% of it weight with total penetration. For me I'll stick with Nosler Partition's. They've worked for over 40 years for me and for others. Lawdog
Posts: 1254 | Location: Northern California | Registered: 22 December 2002
I have tested partitions and scirocco, and they both come apart to easily.
Opps, a gray hair moment. It should have been Ballistic tips and Scirocco's. Sorry for the confusion. Here is a picture I posted on a scirocco discussion. http://users.sisna.com/darty/bulletcp1.jpg The picture is grainy but these bullets are from left to right a 160 gr. Failsafe, a 140 grain Failsafe, a 140 grain Partition, and a 150 gr. Scirocco all 7mm. These were fired in milk jugs of water. The Scirocco was fired from a 7mm Mag, the rest from a 7mm STW. The failsafes penetrated 8 and 6 jugs respectively, and the Scirocco 3 (I can't remember how many the partition penetrated). As you can see, the Scirocco almost wrapped itself inside out. Here is a picture of a 140 grain failsafe I pulled out of a huge 6x6 Elk. It went through the rib area and busted a shoulder on the opposite side, and came to rest just under the skin. http://users.sisna.com/darty/bullet.jpg It lost around 1 grain of weight.
I like the theory around the plastic tip, and I will try the NAB, but I personally don't trust them for the once in a lifetime trophy.
quote:Originally posted by fredj338: Solvi, those bullets don't look pretty. Were you happy w/ the performance?
No, those bullets don't look pretty. They look like they inflicted a lot of trauma and killed an animal rather quickly. Or isn't that what a bullet is supposed to do?
Dont look pretty! They have no core! Thats what varmint bullets are supposed to do..
Posts: 10188 | Location: Tooele, Ut | Registered: 27 September 2001
I have had the Ballistic Tips blow up on rib bones of deer!!! They say the larger calibers have been beefed up but I wouldn't bet my hunt on it. I like the Failsafes and x's.
Yap, that's very close to the results from my wet phone book testing; 13 1/2" pen. & 77gr @ 2950fps Stonecreek, you can't tell by that bullet picture what kind of damage it did to the animal. To me it looks like it all came apart. Did it hit bone or only muscle? I'm not pissing on anyones bullet choice, use what you want, I'm just looking for some input. I won't hunt w/ a bullet until I test it on something (wet phone books) to see how it compares to proven designs. Look @ Yap's experience & look @ what I got in my test. I'll let the other guys hunt w/ the std. plastic points, I'll stay w/ something a bit tougher.
It's just one bullet. I was happy with the performance of it, the reason I shot the animal in the neck was to do as much damage as possible and not to lose any meat. He was running when I shot him and fell like a sack of potates. The bullet dit not kill him, he just culd not move a muscle, and I had to walk to him and finish the job. Next time I will be using a Ballistic/ Silvertip from Winchester or Orix from Norma
Posts: 497 | Location: Iceland | Registered: 27 October 2002
In all honesty I judge a bullet but the reaction of game being hit with it not by what it looks like after it is recovered.As long as I continually get quick clean kills from a bullet I couldn't care less what the remaining bullet weighs or what it looks like.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
That's kind of my point. The bullet doesn't look like it held together well. The bullet didn't cleanly kill the animal, only anchored it. I would think a partition, swift, etc. would have broken the spine & exited causing a quicker kill. This was the exact experience I had on the only neck/spine shot animal I have had. The 160gr NP went in btwn. the shoulders, broke the spine & exited the front of the elks chest (he was running up hill away from me, and no I wasn't trying to break the spine). He was dead when I covered the 100 or so yards to him. That's the type of perf. I look for in a bullet.
quote:Originally posted by fredj338: That's kind of my point. The bullet doesn't look like it held together well. The bullet didn't cleanly kill the animal, only anchored it. I would think a partition, swift, etc. would have broken the spine & exited causing a quicker kill. This was the exact experience I had on the only neck/spine shot animal I have had. The 160gr NP went in btwn. the shoulders, broke the spine & exited the front of the elks chest (he was running up hill away from me, and no I wasn't trying to break the spine). He was dead when I covered the 100 or so yards to him. That's the type of perf. I look for in a bullet.
With all due respect the failure of the bullet to kill the animal is not a function of bullet performance but shot placement. Unless very high a neck shots will often not kill the animal if blood vessels aren't hit.
I really like ballistic tips but feel they need more careful matching to the quarry. My do all 7x57 shoots conventional hornadies as a result.
Posts: 2258 | Location: Bristol, England | Registered: 24 April 2001
1894 you are right of course, to a point. If you place a bad bullet perfectly, you may or may not kill the animal cleanly (in as short a time as possible). The bullet still has to have enough integrity to get into the vitals and get things done. Stubble has far more exp. than I w/ the NBT as I have never hunted w/ it. I'm just raising a point that seems to come up from time to time about "fragile" bullets used for big game hunting & to bring some info. about the next gen. of plastic points (which I think will be much better). Yes. it's alot of "this & that" but it makes for interesting conv. prior to the hunting season opener.
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
Actually what kills the animal is the bullet doing enough damage to the animal to bring it down. I can hit a deer right behind the front shoulder with a tennis ball fired from a spud gun, but I doubt it will put him down. I personally shoot more Ballistic Tips than any other brand of bullet, and I love the accuracy of them. I won't use them for hunting because they are not designed for terminal performance, and I have heard to many horror stories of their failures. A premium bullet will be more forgiving on a not-so-perfect shot, and fortunately, I still get Buck-Fever enough that it might be a possibility. For those who use BT, I sincerely wish them the best of luck, shoot straight, and post the pictures of the animal and the recovered bullet if you can find it.
quote:Originally posted by Hawkeye47: I have had the Ballistic Tips blow up on rib bones of deer!!! They say the larger calibers have been beefed up but I wouldn't bet my hunt on it. I like the Failsafes and x's.
Very intresting, as I routenly push 30cal 150gr NBT's thru both shoulders of deer. In some 100+ deer I have only had 1 FTE and that was a 20yd head down frontal shot (instant drop, bullet entered the back of the neck and stopped in the gut sack after spliting the liver in 2).
Posts: 2124 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002
FWIW, I've shot well over 100 whitetails and wild hogs with the 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet out of my .300 Jarrett at 3400 fps muzzle velocity.
Keep in mind that live weight of an average buck around here is only 150 - 175 pounds, does weigh from 90 - 120 pounds and I only shoot wild hogs in the head (the ribs and shoulders are too good on the grill to mess up with bullet holes).
I have never wounded or lost a single animal hit with this bullet, and only recovered three of them. Like Tailgunner, the bullets I recovered were from shots taken at less than 50 yards where the impact velocity was so high that the bullet was literally turned inside out. While that may be considered bullet failure to some hunters, the animals never moved out of their tracks.
On shots from 50 yards to 350 yards, the other 100 plus bullets were all pass throughs. One buck was hit in the left side of the brisket at over 300 yards, and the Ballistic Tip exited the right ham.
I shot a small buck in the base of the neck at 588 yards several years ago, and that bullet exited. I have never experienced a problem with insufficient penetration.
The concern about meat damage is well-founded. I generally wait for a broadside shot in the chest just behind the shoulders. A hit through both shoulder blades usually turns them into blood-shot jello. A Texas heart shot would certainly destroy much of the hindquarter.
Posts: 692 | Location: South Carolina Lowcountry | Registered: 27 February 2001
The ballistic Tip that i had blow uo on rib bones was the first box that I bought years ago. I loaded them in a 270 to 3100 ft and I shot a Whitetail at 50yds and it blew a hole in the ribcage about the size of a half dollar. I also had one blow up on a Whitetail using a 25-06. It left a blood spot the size of a saucer and never penetrated into the rib cage. I have shot a few deer with the new ballistic Silvertip and from my limited experience it holds together a bit better but still when I head shot a big doe last season it blew up on the head like a hollow point. I have never tried any of the plastic bullets in any caliber bigger than 270. As I stated in my last post I have never shot any of the bullets in the larger calibers.
The posted picture of the bullets settels the argument. With the possible exception of the Scirocco, they are all pretty worthless at velocities exceeding 2700 fps. That picture demonstrtes total failure at 200 meters and by my estimate that bullets was traveling right around 2700 fps. I disagree with Xs and failsafes on deer unless you are shooting one of the "super mags." In my view plastic tip bullets are for paper punchers. jorge
Posts: 7149 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
The load was VIHTAVUORI N165 77.6 grs and the Velocity 2898 according to the reloading manual. I shoot a seal with the same load in the back of its head and cut the top of the skull clean off The range was not more than 50-60 meters.
S�lvi
Posts: 497 | Location: Iceland | Registered: 27 October 2002
The posted picture of the bullet proves that the animal died as it was supposed to.The failure was the animals failure to survive.I will continue to put the meat in the freezer and trophies on the wall and look at pictures of the animals that I have taken with these bullets.If others prefer to spend their time looking at pictures of recovered bullets instead,that is their business.
Another neck shooter saving meat????? I don't think so. More animals are wounded and run off and die from neck shots than I care to talk about. Let's think about this for a moment. A deer, elk, moose, bear, or about any game animal you can think of has a HELL OF ALOT MORE meat (edible) on the neck than in the KILL ZONE (pie plate) sector behind front leg; or in the chest-period. If anyone has doubts, please check with your local butcher or meat packers who process all day. However, if a deer or pronghorn is bedded in tall grass, and all one can see if those enormous antlers and 6 inches of neck and 1 minute left on the clock the last day of the hunting season........well, I guess that's a personal decision. I know there are those out there who are saying to themselves, "I been neck-shootin' them DAMN animals for years and everyone I shoot drops in their tracks!" I say, "My dick really is bigger than your dick."
Posts: 919 | Location: USA | Registered: 22 May 2002
I have a friend who swears by a handloaded 18o gr BalTip in his .30/06 for everything, including elk. All the literature I read, including that by Nosler, seems to suggest that I not use these bullets for anything larger than caribou or large muleys so I don't...just like I refrain from use MatchKings for hunting. O also decided against the 162 gr Hornady SSTs, even though they shot very well from my gun, simply cause I didn't want to take chances on a big bull in timber with only a quarting shoulder shot in the last hour of shooting light. I am going to test the 160 grain Nosler Accubonds in my 7mm Rem Mag. These bullets are supposed to approximately duplicate the performace of a similar weight Partition with a more streamlined profile. If the results look promising, I'll use them for hunting. If not, I'll go back to the Partitions.
faright I think you'll find the NAB an accurate, sturdy bullet, but it won't hold up the same as a partition. As far as the "regular" plastic points, I won't hunt w/ them and it's not because I like to look @ recovered bullets. If things keep going the way they usually do, I won't have any recovered bullets to look @, just cleanly killed game.
Alot of us use the equipment we us because it gives us confidence in our hunting of game. I've seen enough "poor" bullet performance from certain brands to not have any confidence in the "regular" BTs. For the rest of the guys that like them, more power to you, I hope good fortune keeps smiling on you.
quote:Bob Nosler showed me a video at the NRA Convention 2 weeks ago in Orlando of the 200 grain .308 Accubond at work on 23 feral hogs. Unreal perfomance. You can see the bullet pass through a hog end to end at 125 yards and see the bullet skip in the dirt 20 yards past the pig.
There is another amazing shot of his son shooting clean through 3 hogs with one shot. All three dead. I am looking forward to the 180 grain 30 cal version, which is supposed to be next.
This ain't no Ballistic Tip....
[ 05-25-2003, 11:30: Message edited by: Jon A ]
Posts: 920 | Location: Mukilteo, WA | Registered: 29 November 2001
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I recently tested several brands of 160gr bullets in my .280 & the NP held it's weight well & penetrated farthest of those tested. The NAB has promise for the guy looking for a 300yd plus bullet. In my limited test, weight retention & penetration were both better than the "conventional" bullets tested.
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