Deer season opened here in Nebraska last Saturday , Nov, 16th and I was out early as usual and in my hunting blind and ready for some action.
I have a land owner who lets me hunt and has no fear of me shooting his livestock or tearing up fences or property and knows he can trust me when I'm out there. BUT even his brothers who have more right to hunt there than I do like to bring there trucks into the field and drive all over hells half acre and shoot the deer from the truck and other hunters who like to road hunt shoot at them from the road and make a 1/4 or 1/2 mile shot at a deer and have the BALLS to call themselves hunters. Well I'm fed up with the NEW AGE HUNTER who hunts with his truck from a 1/4 mile and brags about his hunting skills, Those kind of guys couldn't hunt down their socks in a laundry basket with out a truck and high powered scope. I had a friend of mine who was hunting on their own property last Sunday tell me she had a nice buck in her sights and was getting ready to pull the trigger when some SOB shot at her and the deer from the road, now boy that's what I call hunting! If you can't kill the deer try to kill the hunter.
I think even though there are an abundance of deer here in S.E. Nebraska, I'm putting my gun up in the cabinet and let it get dusty and book as hunt next year out of state with some guide service or game ranch where these so called "EXPERIENCED" big game hunters in their trucks can't drive. I can see why the animal rights activists are hot on the subject, well so am I but not to get rid of hunting but get rid of the F%#%^$ road hunters that (?) have all the EXPERIENCE in hunting. I guess my dad taught me wrong when I was growing up about respecting property and not shooting at anything to far away and just wounding it or killing for fun or more than you can eat and watching out for the farmers livestock on the other side of the hill or barnyards or houses when I shoot, so I guess he taught me wrong, and DAMN him for that I've been hunting wrong all these years. Johnny Reb

[ 11-20-2002, 20:13: Message edited by: Johnny Reb ]

I have never sat in judgment of hunters methods of hunting, to each his own as long as it is legal....

But as a matter of fact, I see little difference in hunting out of a truck or hunting out of a blind, both are basically bushwacking, so I wouldn't be quite so pious and condemning....

I have done both, so I suppose I'm a sinner, but I make no excuses for my behavior...actually I prefer the spot and stalk methods these days, mostly because of age, aches and pains..In my younger days I walked all day anyplace I hunted on foot or horseback or a combination of both. that is the way sportsmen hunt IMO, although again I have not always adhered to that, shame on me, but at least I admit my failings....

Atkinson
I'm sure what Reb was talking about is the very Illegal use of vehicles in hunting- IE Trespassing on Private lands /shoot across roads etc.
No wonder it is so hard now a days to get land owners to give us permmision just becuase of these few bad apples. Granted I've seen and reported more violations in the last 5 years than I have done ever in twenty years of hunting.
And as hunters we need to police our own- period if we don't these few that do not respect our rights to hunt will make sure that we loose those rights when land owners and the general public decide we are to much trouble. so if you hunt with or know someone that does these thing get them straighten out or we'll loose what hunting we have left.

[ 11-20-2002, 22:15: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

THere's a disease worse than CWD, which has been affecting us all. THose who are infected, and those of us who have to put up with the reults...
It's called "shiny-itus", and is spread thru "Hook & Bullet" magazines, and The Sportsmans Show.

Symptoms are shiny new short-fat-magnumb rifles with Scopes that would not be out of place in the Palomar observatory, equipped with bipods, the newest pattern of "leaf & twig" pattern "no-see-me-suits", and chronic over-use of ATV's.

In Wash. state we are cursed with a totally self-serving game dept. that "goes along to get along" with anti's and other pavement pounders who don't know or care zip-diddley about what goes on in the real world as long as they "feel good" about what ever destructive actions they have taken and rammed down our throats.
"Our"(what an f---ing joke!) game dept. claims there have been no instances of CWD going from deer/elk to people. (The truth would interfere with "revenue collection".)
The pack of self-serving, spineless fools "managing" the game, coupled with "deer shooters", and hardly any deer "hunters" left, makes deer season a cross between a carnival midway complete with geeks, and a destruction derby.

You've got to get WAY off the beaten track, whereever you are planning on hunting.
Also make sure you are not going to be guided by someone who "road hunts" off horse back. Just like the truck "hunters", only on trails and such. (WOn't get off the horse or allow you to. The "hunt" is designed for an efficient ride away from camp and back to it, regardless of where game might be walked up.) (John Barsness talks about this...)

I feel like gunnybagging the whole license/tag BS just like I did wildfowling after steel shot became mandatory.

If you want to eat something and know something about it's habits and whether there is sufficient population to bear the "pressure", just shoot it and eat it.....and don't get caught.

Dave 32-20

'Reb, I sympathize with what you're saying, no doubt about it.

However, thirty years ago, when I first started hunting mule deer and elk, the pilgrims were indulging in some of the same ludicrous, atrocious behavior that some of them indulge in today, or maybe even worse!

For example, I remember bumping into a pair of all-stars who were armed with scope-eqippped Marlin .30-30s when I was fifteen years old and on my first elk hunt. These guys were bemoaning the fact that they had "only wounded" a bull or two out of a herd, but lost the blood trail(s) and gave up on finding the elk they shot at after a half-hour or so. I asked then how far away the elk were when they fired, and how many shots they had fired.

I was told that they had emptied their guns, and that the range was "only five or six hundred yards".

October of 1972......

AD

Gentlemen

It seems like america has become 100% motorised. People shoot deer and antelope from their car. I think this type of behaviour is pathetic and some "hunters" should have been taken away right after birth. I guess more people should start to mind their mannors if the car, rifle and other assets could be confiscated and the funds given to the game departments.

I pan handle area the owner of a rach gave me and my realtive hunting acess. The conditions were only clean shoots, no cars or other motor vehichle. I bagged three whitetails that were wounded/scarred by the honest and responsible roadhunters �
I some areas you could stalk very close to the deer on foot, while the noise of engine made them run for life.
/ JOHAN

[ 11-21-2002, 22:57: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

New Law - You must turn in the window cranks from your vehicles on issue of a hunting license, until the end of season. Special dispensation may be possible for tobacco chewers.

I always ask for a window seat on an airliner because of this. Get some strange looks!

Again Barsness doesn't understand all....

I would like to see him follow me horseback or muleback on a desert mule deer hunt in the rocky high mountain area of Mexico's Sierra Del Carmens or on the Texas border in the Big Bend area...

About the first time the horses tail fell over in his face because the mountain was too steep comming down, he would take a different perspective on horseback hunting, or manuvering a ledge where some goats made a path years ago or to step off and shoot a running muley in a few seconds before he went over a saddle 200 yards off...

Much of that country is barely manuverable by man on foot, and even worse horseback, but we have horses that were raised there and do fine..that is the most sporting hunting I have ever done and I still love it above all other hunting.....Oh and we have no trails passed a mile from the house....We ride parralle along the bottom of the middle and upper rimrocks. It is exciting as known by those who have hunted in this manner...

Most of us have been injured at one time or another doing this, mostly from falls and when moving goats or cattle off the ledges..I have had some bad wrecks while hunting, once when my mule didn't like packing me and a deer and bucked over a 25 foot ledge, that hurt me and killed the mule..broke his friggin neck and good ridance. I still prefer a horse...

Lets not forget the lazy, fat b@stards that run their dogs all over creation. I just love getting in my stand early only to have a bunch of curs come through at first light.

The key to success in hunting is simply. Hunt where there is little or no hunting pressure, and game are present. For safety reasons I hunt far enough from any driven road that I can not be seen. Blacktail Deer in Oregon is a general season tag. So I've been shot at, scoped, spotlighted in camp, you name it. The danger is being within sight of a drivable road. The four-wheelers may get in your craw, but they seem to be having fun driving around not looking for deer. I went into a game office and told the game officer that the camp next to us had a dozon hunter (locals) hunting to fill one cow elk tag. The Officer said, "well we gave out alot of tags this year they are probably are ok." What a crock!!

This is not meant to offend anyone, or to defend actual slob hunters, but could at least part of the problem be connected to the smaller fraternity of hunters, the move to private leases, the anti-everything propaganda, and some of the stand-offishness of some otherwise skilled and ethical hunters?

I mean, take me. I don't know anything about deer hunting really. Some day I'll go on what I hope is the first of many good deer hunts. But I'll have an experienced hunter with me, because I want to know everything there is to know. Where to shoot it. How to quarter it. etc.

Can most of you say that you are reasonably available to take a stranger along and show him or her the ropes? Assuming the "apprentice" would cover most expenses of course. I'm not talking about your son, or nephew, or worthless brother-in-law, but someone you have met recently, maybe on this forum or at the range? Introduce them to your favorite "private landowner", even if it took you three years of flatfooting to make his acquaintance and get permission to hunt?

I think that half of the "slobs" described on this forum are truly worthless, but the other half, maybe they don't know any better, or they only have experience hunting with true "slobs". Leaving the deer half butchered is bad, but maybe they had no clue how to dress it? Maybe they got it right before sundown, were ill-prepared, poorly experienced and badly outfitted, and just gave up? Maybe their father was a drunken slob who taught them to run down deer with the truck and then shoot it from the window. They should know better, but what exactly is "better"?

Maybe you guys could do something constructive and form a guild. Peer reviewed techniques for both legality and ethics (these threads are a start). Commit yourself to being "PH for a weekend" at least once a year, which might involve a few range sessions to familiarize them with the firearm. An evening with a cold sixpack going over the gear that is needed and not needed. Some supervision in the field, and some myth-breaking. Not everyone has the patience to do this, and not every non-hunter will be worth the attempt, but if one out of 5 people in your lifetime benefit and become better hunters, isn't that better for the sport as a whole?

Pardon the rambling. It is just an outside opinion. I learn quite a bit on these forums, but eventually i have to get out there and do it. From some of these posts I'd rather just go take my chances alone than try and measure up to some of the standards I see here. Mainly because it seems that everything is wrong for one reason or another.

Either that or I'll go on a nutria safari in louisiana. $4 bounty for tails! Woohoo!

Geez, I'm glad it ain't just me!

I saw so many examples of unethical behavior opening weekend that I haven't been back out since and I'm looking hard at devoting more time to predator calling and ice fishing!

I've just had enough. Even hunting on foot way up high in dark timber I can never seem to escape the battalions of roadhunters, ATVers, et al.

Had to vent. I'm all better now

Redial

In Texas it is illegal to shoot from a public road or across a public road from one property to another. A good many years ago now some guys were arrested and fined in Kerr county(hill country) not because they had a dead elk(no protection in Kerr county as an exotic) but because they were road hunting.

guys do what we do --that is get as far back from the nearest roads tracks etc,we will walk in 10-15 miles on extended hunts for sambar stags,and its generally a matter of having it all to ourselves(thousands of square miles) and going hard at it for our deer,this sorts the wheat from the chaff so to speak as we dont find shitheads far in from roads as they are the ones that are afraid of being lost haha or its just too much hard work for them to get their arse out of the car-----got no time for road shooters (cant call em hunters)

I'm new to all this so please bear with me.

I too share in the frustration many are voicing here. I myself hunt alone, however the state of Iowa allows party hunting with no limit to size of party. We have groups of as many 25 or more pushing through every patch of cover day after day, group after group, for the duration of the season. The volleys of shooting you sometimes hear are unbelievable. Many shoot at every deer they see no matter the range (even though we are a shotgun/muzzleloader state) leaving many wounded and unrecovered deer in the field. With all this pressure, it's tough going. I always seem to get my tags filled, but I really have to work at it. I have been able to give myself some relief by going to Wyoming the last 4 years in addition to hunting at home, this evens it out somewhat.

In defense of Mr. Barsness, I didn't get the impression he was being critical of honest hard hunting people like Mr. Adkinson (if I didn't spell your name right, I apologize) who truly need pack animals to get where they hunt. He seemed to be telling people to find out in advance what their booked hunt was going to consist of. If I booked a hunt expecting it to be of the excellent caliber that Ray described, only to have it be a pony ride around the hill like John described, I would come away extremely disappointed. I sure wouldn't be a repeat customer. Just my thoughts.

Brian

In England and Wales it is illegal to fire within 15feet of the centre of the road if to do so inconveniences a road user.

To place a bullet on someone elses property is armed tresspass even if the shot was fired on your own property.

Say what you will about tough firearms legislation it has one effect - there are fewer stalkers. Those who do go through the hoops are keen and tend to do it right.

Can anybody tell me why you guys have such short, relatively "high pressure" deer seasons in so many places?

If the number of deer taken is controlled by the number of tags issued, wouldn't everyone benefit from say a 3 month season instead of say a 3 week season??? Ease the hunter pressure so to speak.....

Regards

Peter

In Wis we have a short firearms season because most hunters are struck in rut. The DNR has tryed to make the season longer but most of the hunter do not want to give up are 9 day hunt why beats me we have more deer than we can control. Then the anti's jump in claiming it is dangerous to have hunters in the woods longer ect.

Atkinson
You said "But as a matter of fact, I see little difference in hunting out of a truck or hunting out of a blind, both are basically bushwHacking ( spelling correction ), so I wouldn't be quite so pious and condemning"

Maybe that fact that you "see little difference" says a world about you.

I do not care how old you are or how your body functions. If I can't walk ten miles ( and I can't ) I would not hunt tens miles away. Shooting from a car is just not right.

I do admit that a big ol' Ford truck is one of the best blinds you can buy.

Fair chase?

Turtle

Soome, most of the above rasons are just why I don't deer hunt in Michigan any more. Ant this is probably the biggest event in Michingan all hunting season long. I to have been shot at, and all of the other horror stories posted here. The last time I went out during the firearms season for deer was about 4 years ago. I had to endure people coming after daylight and sitting 30 yards in front of me, people getting droped off and making a push through the woods on opening morning!!!. When confronted, one said we hunt this way you hunt yours. So my time of hunting on "state land" is at a close. It seems that, to me, hunter ehtics are a thing of the past. Very few are willing, have the compentence, or will take the time to make an old time hunt. The closest I have come to a non intrusive hunting experience is in remote Canada, and of course Africa, where we were the only ones hunting in that area at the time. Can anyone say "private hunting lodge. Signs that say private property keep out don't seen to mean much to some. And the C.O's don't have the time, or you cannot find them when the trespass happens. Big buck hunts seem, unfortunately, the only way to go. That is if you are going for the hunt experience, and not just for meat. If the latter, go to the grocery store.

ScotB: I've been taking young, inexperienced hunters afield every year for about the last 10. My deer hunting is usually over the first weekend anyway. That's one way for me to get more time in the field. By the way I almost always hunt on public land in North Dakota and see lots of slob hunters. I also spend at least a week or more in Wyoming, Montana or Texas hunting. I like to take inexperienced hunters and show them the ropes.

Pete E makes an interesting point. Here in Illinois the firearm (shotgun/ML only) season is three days, then a two week break, then another three days. First season (starts tomorrow) is when most of the deer are taken, so you have a better chance of success. So a LOT of hunters will be out in the woods and fields at daybreak tomorrow. With such a concentration of armed people about there's bound to be the usual accidents, and more importantly, as frustration of not having gotten a deer sets in, unethical practices. This will increase as the weekend wanes. Maybe if the season where say a month long, like for bowhunters, some of the pressure to produce in the first hour of daylight on opening day will be reduced. Of course, there will always be those who, no matter how long the season, will try to "beat the system".
Just a thought, something for me to think about in the early morning hours tomorrow, thanks Pete!

ScottB and Bogio,
Nice posts, makes since to me....

BBTurtle,
I believe you must have read something into my post...My intention was that although I have hunted from a truck and a blind that I couldn't see much difference in them...I seldom do either as I prefer to spot and stalk or just hoof it..but in my near 70 years I have shot a lot of game out the window of a truck, and out the window of a blind, mostly for meat and in culling hunts

Now spot and stalk to my mind is hunting from a truck, spotting game in the bush, or on a distant hillside, then parking and stalking the animal and shooting it....Shooting from or even near the truck is verbotten for the most part.

That said, I live in a glass house and cannot condem much in this world, I've about done it all when it comes to hunting...some I'm proud off, some I am not, none do I repent....That's as honest as I can be, I won't lie.

As far as I am concerned, those that knowingly flaunt the law or abuse private property rights in the act of "hunting", are ANTI-HUNTERS. Plain and simple. They will have more to do with the demise of my lifestyle (not pastime or sport), than any PETA member ever will.

With regards to the ethicality of certain legal activities, that is up to the hunting fraternity to deal with. We will have no-one but ourselves to blame if our rights are taken away due to the few (many?) bad apples with shady ethics, even if their practices are technically legal.

Times change. Just because a few people used to do something years ago and it didn't hurt anyone or hurt wildlife populations, doesn't mean 10x more people doing it today will be OK. Laws have to change over time as the dynamics of activities change. When problems are small, there are usually higher priorites to deal with and laws may not get made to correct the problem until it becomes a big problem. Using laws as the basis of what is truly right and wrong is not always sufficient. Personally, I am not a big fan of over-regulation anyway, and would rather have less regulation than more.

Really, education and understanding are paramount to this issue. Ethics are a grey area and are developed over time. I have done some things I am not overly proud of. I don't regret anything though. If I hadn't done those things, I probably wouldn't know that they weren't my style, or that they made me feel bad to participate in. Ethics aren't written in a book. Personal ethics are your own, and they grow and ripen over time based on education, experience, guidance and positive reinforcement.

FWIW, Canuck

JD,

you're a good man. If we ever get that AR reunion together in the South Pacific, I'll buy you a Lone Star

I find there is a serious shortage of "ethics" amongst the modern hunting fraternity, however if you compare hunting to other sports, I think our crowd is fairly well behaved.

JD Has the right idea. Take some rookies hunting and teach them how to do things right.

It's true that firearm season is pretty hectic in some spots in Nebraska. That's why my favorite type of hunting is bowhunting. Nice long season and less pressure/danger. I see more game because I'm acutally hunting and I always get much more satisfaction out of a successful hunt.

I'm sure the spear hunters are shakin' their fingers at me though!

ScottB
Good point-I myself am willing to take a "new hunter a field". But I will get to know you before I do! If you meet my requirements in temperment and skills you and I can hunt together. If you don't like to follow the safety rules are alittle more than likely bend/break the rules and ethics just to fill your tag it will not be with me! If you piont your firearm in my direction and don't listen when I tell you to move it in a safe place you most likely will have that firearm placed in a place that will make it very hard to sit. If you can't hit the broad side of a barn-take shots at the "Noise in the bush" and are not willing to shoot your firearm more than twice a year -you will not be hunting with me! I know I'm a hard ass!! But when it comes to firearms and thier use in the field or at the range I'm not going to cut you or anyone else any slack period! Pulling the trigger on a firearm at game or at the range is just to serious to be half-assed about, once the damage is done you can't ask for a retake

[ 11-22-2002, 22:24: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

gunnut,

that is a given. If a person can't understand simple rules designed for even the most inexperienced shooter, then it isn't inexperience that is holding them back. They need to take up something less safety-critical, like bowling.