I found a group of "Head Shooters" on the Small Rifle Board. Seemed to upset them a bit with my thoughts concerning Head Shots on Deer.

All these questions will be about Deer that do not know anyone is watching them. They are just in their normal routine and not on High Alert after you dropped your flashlight down a 20' metal ladder.

However, it is during the actual Deer Season and they have heard, smelled and seen people moving through the Woods/Swamps/Fields.

I'm interested in your best "observed" rememberances of watching Deer and how their Heads moved.

Thanks for the input.

Question:
Do you believe a Doe's Head or a Buck's Head typically remains "UP" longer when just standing around?

Choices:
A. The Doe's Head typically remains up the longest.
B. The Buck's Head typically remains up the longest.
C. I don't know.
D. It is way too variable to predict.

Question:
A Doe's Head typically remains up, scanning for potential threats:

Choices:
E. 1-5sec
F. 10-30sec
G. 30-60sec
H. 1-3min
I. I don't know.
J. It is way too variable to predict.

Question:
A Buck's Head typically remains up, scanning for potential threats:

Choices:
K. 1-5sec
L. 10-30sec
M. 30-60sec
N. 1-3min
O. I don't know.
P. It is way to variable to predict.

 

shot a 7 point last year in the eyebrow w/ a 168 AMAX @ 2550.
flop
shot a nice doe this year up the right nostril.
flop.

Far too many variables in head shots on game. Until you've seen animals live through their jaw being blown off, you really can't grasp the ill effects of head shooting game.

It doesn't matter if you're the best marksman on earth, head shots are very iffy and can be disasterous.

Reloader

As I post this, we have had 107 people look at the thread and only 11 Vote. Kind of surprises me.

Reloader is spot on!

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Far too many variables in head shots on game. Until you've seen animals live through their jaw being blown off, you really can't grasp the ill effects of head shooting game.

It doesn't matter if you're the best marksman on earth, head shots are very iffy and can be disasterous.

Reloader

+1

explain to me how someone can advocate shooting a deer at 300 yards and disagree with shooting them in the head at 50.
i doubt having the jaw blown off is any worse than being shot through the guts.
at 50 yards i dont have drop or wind to consider and my target is actually quite large in respect to my accuracy at that distance.
a deer can move at 300 as soon as it can at 50 but the time in flight of my head shot is a minute percentage of yours at 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Far too many variables in head shots on game. Until you've seen animals live through their jaw being blown off, you really can't grasp the ill effects of head shooting game.

It doesn't matter if you're the best marksman on earth, head shots are very iffy and can be disasterous.

Reloader

+ another 1

Head shots are too risky. That's why I shoot them in the neck.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Far too many variables in head shots on game. Until you've seen animals live through their jaw being blown off, you really can't grasp the ill effects of head shooting game.

It doesn't matter if you're the best marksman on earth, head shots are very iffy and can be disasterous.

Reloader

+ another 1

+++1

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
explain to me how someone can advocate shooting a deer at 300 yards and disagree with shooting them in the head at 50.
i doubt having the jaw blown off is any worse than being shot through the guts.
at 50 yards i dont have drop or wind to consider and my target is actually quite large in respect to my accuracy at that distance.
a deer can move at 300 as soon as it can at 50 but the time in flight of my head shot is a minute percentage of yours at 300 yards.

I have killed a deer at over 300 yards with a lung shot, and 20 yards with a head shot. I won't try another head shot. The head moves too much for my abilities. I practice at 300 yards, but I don't always know exactly where I hit at 0-50 yards.
I think you likely hunt thicker, close range spots than me. The open fields I hunt offer lots of time to pick my shot, and no obstructions to the vitals.
The one deer I headshot was a stunt. I know I can do it, but I won't do it again.

I'm assuming you take headshots. If you're only playing devil's advocate, thats ok too.

Does anyone know how a deer reacts to a non-killing head shot? I ask because my young cousin tried one and thinks he missed because the deer ran away.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
As I post this, we have had 107 people look at the thread and only 11 Vote. Kind of surprises me.

It doesn't surprise me. I didn't vote because I feel it's a question that shouldn't even be contemplated. JMHO.

a 2" kill zone at 50 eqates to what?, 6" at 300 yards?
no drop, no windage to calculate and almost no time in flight for the animal to move after the trigger is pulled.
i have no problem with it. if you dont feel secure doing it thats fine. but its not unethical anymore than shooting a deer at 300 yards in a 10 MPH wind is.

head shots are risky, BUT if the animal is facing you, or going straight away, you'll hit the brain or spine. I personally don't like them for the reason that the deer can move its head as you shoot. The only head shot I've ever taken required a second shot. That was enough for me. I actually brain shot a deer last year that ducked it's head as I was shooting at the neck. Instant results, but it shows how quickly the situation can change. JMHO

gd

The deer's kill zone on a body shot doesn't move as much or as quickly as their head. A 300 yard shot in a 10 mph wind is a chip shot if you have time and a good rest.

quote:

Originally posted by bja105:

Does anyone know how a deer reacts to a non-killing head shot? I ask because my young cousin tried one and thinks he missed because the deer ran away.

They trot off to the county hospital ER because they don't have health insurance and can't afford veterinarians.

im not buying it.
there is virtualy no time lapse between when the trigger is pulled and the bullet strikes, unlike longer shots.
target is large for the range.
maybe i have just been lucky all these years but i have never missed a head shot of flubbed one either.
but then again i have formal training in CNS shots.

As I think back, I only know 3 people that practice with their rifles at 25 and 50yds. And as far as I know, only one of them knows so little about Deer that he has mentioned taking a Head Shot.
-----

This question is similar to asking, are you an unethical idiot that doesn't know spit about either Deer, firearms or what you are doing:
1. I know more than all the combined wisdom of those who have gone before me. They just don't take Head Shots because they don't have an accurate firearm, are not a World Class Expert Shooter at all distances like I am, and I know so much about a Deer that I can predict what it will do 15min before it does it.
2. NO!

A persons reputation among their peers quickly goes into the tank with the wrong answer. I've seen folks recover from attempting to defend the wrong stand on an issue, but I doubt any Hunter with actual first-hand experience afield can ever have common respect for a person who attempts Head Shoots as a routine practice on Deer. Same as for a democrat.

I don't believe it is possible to think of a worse example to set for the Beginning Hunters. Absolutely Pitiful!

KS: we head-shoot them all the time. Of course, our rifles are accurate and we practice with them. The head shot is not for the novice.
Walt

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I've seen folks recover from attempting to defend the wrong stand on an issue, but I doubt any Hunter with actual first-hand experience afield can ever have common respect for a person who attempts Head Shoots as a routine practice on Deer. same as for a Democrat.

I don't believe it is possible to think of a worse example to set for the Beginning Hunters. Absolutely Pitiful!

Classic! Just Classic! Hotcore

Let's get some facts straight. Head or neck shooting a deer does not make you an unethical hunter. Some of us are damn good shots. And no, head and neck shots are not for everybody nor are they advisable under all conditions. I know my limitations. A good accurate rifle with a good rest, a whistle to get the deer to stand still, and bang flop! I guess the next thing you're gonna try to tell me is that my 22-250 is unethical to use on deer. Thirty something deer a year think differently.

I'll let someone else be the example for the new hunters. When I have the opportunity to shoot a deer at close range in the noggin, I do it. There is very little cheek meat on a deer. And, by the way, I know a certain 11-year-old that is ONLY allowed to shoot his deer in the head.
After taking over 500 whitetails on biological collections for the VA Game Dept and the Dept of Defense over 25 years, most at night with a spotlight and in the head to up to 200 yards, I can say it is not a practice for the "casual" deer hunter or the 3-inch-group shooter, but it is instantly fatal and the most humane shot on game. If you don't have the confidence or equipment to be consistently accurate, don't try it. But don't condemn those of us that can do it efficiently and repeatedly.
Walt

Head shots are great if you have them in a spotlight or if you are putting one out of it's misery with a 22 pistol as it lays near your feet. During the season when animals are actively searching for danger my opinion is that it is a poor practice. It ruins the cape and a near kill offers little shock. Gianni

I thought that's why they made Jewell triggers was for head shots? With a Jewell on a truly accurate rifle, making head shots within 200 yds is literaly a NO BRAINER. You will not reliably do it with a Wal-Mart special.

I remember an article by Jack O'Connor back in the 60's where Eleanor shot a 6X6 elk between the eyes with her 7X57, at his instruction. He said the antlers resembled two broomsticks tied together at one end with a piece of leather. The object of the hunt was meat, not bone. No meat loss and the elk of course dropped in his tracks. Head shots are not a new thing for the practiced marksman.

yep - everyone's a marksman on the internet, where there is no wind, no uphill or downhill angles, and all the rifles shoot exactly the way the ballistic tables (taped to the butt of the rifles, of course) say they should, and the deer cooperate by not moving so much as a whisker......

if you want them to hold real still bogart a dog whistle in the corner of your mouth and blow it when you are ready to shoot they stop cold and stand still when you hit em with the whistle.

quote:

Until you've seen animals live through their jaw being blown off, you really can't grasp the ill effects of head shooting game.

Ok, I'll play devil's advocate, and NO, I don't take head shots as a rule...

So what about the deer I've killed with broadheads still in the shoulder, does that mean I should never bow hunt? Or how about the one I finished off in the January season that someone had shoulder shot that didn't penetrate past the shoulder and she was dragging the leg, should I never shoot for the shoulder again? I've seen many more of these than jaw shot deer.

That portion of the argument is pretty lame.

Is it a risky shot? Sure, if you don't practice and know where YOUR rifle shoots and don't wait for the best possible angle, but those are exactly the same arguments for long distance game shooting. I think both are ethical, legal and perfectly fine given the sentence above.

larry - the deer shot in the shoulder can eat and at least has a chance to recover; a deer with a blown-off jaw will not be able to eat and will never recover.

Yup, just like the gut shot deer where the shot was taken at 300 yards that moved, or to add another never to be answered question, just like the running deer that was gut shot. Does that make one more ethical, or legal, that the other? Nope.

It still boils down to personal abilities and restraints one places on their shots and personal values for EVERY type of shot taken, not just this particular instance.

I personally can find places for all of these types of shots, given the right circumstances. We could argue all of these for days and not even get into all of the circumstances. It boils down to personal.

we can argue all day about particulars. you asked about a shoulder shot with an arrow; i gave you an answer based on a shoulder shot with an arrow.

I head shoot'em, under 100yds and only when I feel comfortable making the shot. My father neck shot a doe this morning. It is no big deal if you can make the shot and don't try some hero bullshit. If the deer are nervous I shoot for the shoulders. I see no difference between a head shot or a high shoulder shot, both targets are small. Main thing about the head shot is the meat does not bleed out or something. I head shot a 7 point earlier this year with my 22 K-Hornet @ 90 yds, drilled his eye out. He was facing me slightly and the only thing I could see was his head. I had a good rest and felt very comfortable making the shot. I also had been shooting P-dogs in Montana out to 225yds with this same gun so this was a chip shot. I passed on a cowhorn just last night at 275yds. I had him in the scope but had a small doubt as to whether I could make a good shot. He was also kinda nervous and moving around in shoulder high soybeans. I let him go, will be back there again in 3 hours hoping he comes out closer.

Everyone pulls their own trigger and has to live with the outcome. This is a personal matter as is hunting in general.

M

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
yep - everyone's a marksman on the internet, where there is no wind, no uphill or downhill angles, and all the rifles shoot exactly the way the ballistic tables (taped to the butt of the rifles, of course) say they should, and the deer cooperate by not moving so much as a whisker......

not many variables at 50 yards or so.
id say 50-70 is about my limit for T-zone shots. others may not feel capable at 25 yeards. thats them not me.
i'd be more apt to head shoot a deer at 50 than i would to shoulder shoot one at 300.

I love the fact that everyone is an expert when it comes to something they cannot have a clue about. The conditions under which someone else hunts.

Hot Core, why is it you can't "brag" about what you actually have and can do, but will go on and on and on about what you don't do, like your some kind of mentoring hero? You're sure prideful for someone that isn't prideful.

Too funny.

Funny comming from you. I find it increasingly apparent that you have trouble argueing with logic. All hat and no cowboy comes to mind as well.

Feel free to continue to post what you haven't done or seen. Looks good on you.

you assume i was talking to you - did the shoe fit or something?

sorry to disappoint you, but where this topic is concerned, i've been there and done that; even if i haven't i'd still feel free to post opinion on it; that's what being an american with freedom of speech is all about.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
...Hot Core, why is it you can't "brag" about what you actually have and can do, ...

Here is a classic example of something I was thinking about today. I have little doubt that I could "brag" many of the posters under the table, but bragging is an "ad and the merry band of stooges(Chuck, bradley, kutie, jorge, etc.) trait" that reflects very poorly on the blowhard braggarts. I've no desire at all to be thought of as low as a blowhard braggart. This is something that really upsets a true blowhard braggart, because they don't get to say, "Welllllll...., but I did this ...." and it also removes the opportunity for them to label you as a lier which is one of their strongest traits when they don't have a clue about you. Pitiful!
-----

Which brings me to what I was thinking about today.

It appears to me there is still a group of blowhard braggarts that hang around the Board. You rarely if ever see them make a post to help one of the Beginners. Apparently it is because they believe that helping a Beginner is just too far below their (Legend in their own mind) exhalted Guru status. If they can't make a post that has something to do with, "Look what I did/can do ...!" or "look at what I have ...!", then they typically do not post at all. I'd encourage you to stop and think about all the threads you have recently read and see if you agree.

And of course the blowhard braggarts ALWAYS plow in to the posts where they can say, "I can do this because I am so great ...," while intending to imply that you are not. Or, "My equipment costs more, so I am vastly superior to anyone else!" What a bunch of moronic blowhard braggart jerks.

They have a serious problem when they really do not know who they are "atttempting to" talk down-to. It really upsets them because deep down inside, they know those with experience see completely through them. Even the Beginners and Rookies figure them out.
-----

That said, I really enjoy a good story about a Kill someone has made. I would often like to be able to shake his hand, slap him on the back and extend my most sincere congratulations - in person. But, we don't often get to do that with people from all over the world making great posts.

It is extremely easy to determine who is "rightfully proud" of their accomplishments and those who are simply in their normal blowhard braggart mode. But..., the blowhard braggarts rarely catch on, they simply have problems dealing with reality.
-----

Now, I do want to wish all of you the very best of Luck - especially the Head Shooters.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:


Now, I do want to wish all of you the very best of Luck - especially the Head Shooters.

thanks.
you know im only in Spartanburg. you and i should get together when i start culling does mid december.