I thought I would give Ray a break from seeing his post come to the top. Anyway, I am very interested in this subject that Idaho Vandal posted (off topic) in Rays thread. Here it is

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Hey Doc! IN the interest of hijacking this thread in a completely new direction....

F1 (the offspring) hybrids do tend to be sterile, but not always (as you stated)

Yes, it would appear that more hybridization occurs between female mule deer and male whitetails. But not necessarily because the wt is more aggressive. It may have more to do with the overall density of large (4-point) md bucks in a particular breeding population. To paraphrase: WT does do not seem to be as selective when allowing a WT buck to mate with her, if a 3pt is all that is around, she will will receive him. MD does on the other hand have shown that they tend to be more selective, if a large (4pt) MD buck is not available, she may be a little resistant to a 3 pt MD or 2 pt MD yet will be receptive to a 4 or 5pt WT buck. Of course it is far more complex than that.

In many cases restrictions are put in place where MD bucks can only be killed if they are "3 pt or larger," and this may be contributing to this phenomenon. That is one of the many questions.

As far as antler configuration, I am not aware of any studies done which have correlated antler configuration to the sex of each parent....maybe so. But, typically the hybrids DO NOT STOTT This is why hybridization may contribute to lower mule deer reproduction rates. The hybrids have been shown to have a very limited set of anti-predation strategies. (Stotting is one of the strategies mule deer use) In most cases, hybrids do not immediately flee at the sight of a predator (as is common in WT) NOR do they stott or bunch close together as do muleys. Thus, hybrid fawns may be preyed upon at a higher rate than either mule deer fawns or whitetail fawns. BUT without checking specifically for hybridization during fawn mortality studies, these animals may just show up as lower mule deer survival------> we'll see!

IV

IV,

I like your comment about a hybrin not stotting. I have seen a hybrid attempt a stott ... sort of. It was the most bizare gait I have ever witnessed an animal do.

I have both WT and MD on the ranch and I saw what is the most clear-cut example of a hybrid. I was convinced, looking at his from the front, that he was a Mule Deer. When he turned around he had a very short whitetails tail.

Then I noticed the irregularities. not real long ears, but sort of long. A mule deer forehead, body was grey in color, but the legs looked odd. He had a 2x2 antler that could be either a mule deer or a WT, so nothing conclusive there either.

What amazed me and convinced me that he was a cross was what he did when he saw me. He turned and ran, then into a stott, then a confused stott/run that was not like anything I have ever seen. It was like he was confused "am I a WT and should run, or am I a MD and should stott. I think I will combine the two."

So your comment about the fact that the do not stott holds true, by they will darn sure try it!

There's a very nice hybrid buck mounted at the Red Oxx (shameless plug, I don't work there; Red Oxx makes some awesome duffles and travel gear. The owners are hunting fools, varmints, Europe, Africa, etc.) store in Billings, MT. Unique rack with traditional whitetail colors (lighter, almost white) and a nearly perfect WT/MD cross mainbeam arrangement. The cape also has WT and MD characteristics.

Valerius Geist writes about hybrids in Mule Deer Country (must read for mulie lovers). He mentions the stot/flee problems and indirectly hypothesizes that few may survive in high predation area.

Doc has seen the same thing!

He posted this on Ray's thread.

quote:

IV, I have not read or heard of any studies regarding the antler configuration either but it is my experience.

Also, where blacktail and mule deer interbreed I've witnessed what is called a "benchleg" where the hair patterns and leg color look as if the deer is wearing socks half way up its legs. Really quite cool to see.

With regards to the stotting, you're right, but what I saw was what most definitely looked like a hybrid ATTEMPT to stott and it was very clumsy. Which would certainly confirm ease of predation. I misspoke, sorry.

Doc, I agree. The legs were very distint on this deer as well. That was one of the most distinct features. Orange legs and grey body.

I have been on a few hunts where a few
bucks have been taken here in N.I. that you could not tell what exactly what species the deer actually was.One in particular was around
Harrison I.D. and another around Mullan I.D.
They had so many common chacteristics that
you actually could not decied which one to call
it.

They had to be Hybrids,that was in the 80-s
and still occasionaly I see a few that other people have shot.

My wife shot a hybrid several years ago. One side of the horns is pure mulie, 7pts. the other is a 5pt white tail. We had seen this deer the year before and it had bigger horns. The face was mulie but the body looked more white tail.

Looks like Wendell and I saw the same thing.

Ever watch a mule run? Not the same stride as a quarter horse and not quite a gallop like a burro.

If I can find them I have some good photos taken in 89 on the golf couorse in Saratoga of some very very big muley whitetail cross's. I found the video of them but I know I got some photos. One was poached that same winter right on the golf course.

And I was having so much fun hijacking the other one.....good choice though...

What I find most fascinating about MD/WT hybrids is that very little literature exists documenting the occurence and influences etc. When most game department people are asked they will say hybridization is very rare (which it is- but I think it occurs moreso than many others); they will say the offspring are STERILE (which is not always true) and that hybridization has no influence on population structure or dynamics (which I disagree with ) thus------> RESEARCH!

Unfortunately, morphological traits are not always true indicators of hybridization, for example, whitetailed deer that do not contain any exclusively mule deer alleles ( they are not hybrids -an allele is genetic mumbo jumbo- i.e no segment of DNA which has been identified as uniquely MD) can have antlers which may look similar to mule deer and vice versa, but again, may not be hybrid. Also, deer which look like one or the other species may actually be hybrid. The best way to tell a true hybrid is at the molecular level via genetic analysis.

ANyway, I've rambled enough......time to peruse the other postings.....where is that DTH guy and his posse...... hmmm.........



IV

I've seen several hybrids, and I shot one years ago. Last year I witnessed a Muley buck breeding a WT doe. That's the first time I've seen that.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Looks like Wendell and I saw the same thing.

Doc, what the hell were you doing on my ranch?

I called the game warden in my county and told him about the buck. I had no intention of shooting him as he was not mature, he thought I wanted to shoot him, so a conversation about the % of which specie he was.

"You can shoot him, but it is whitetail season now, he must be more than 50% WT."

"But, Matt, he is 50/50"

"Then you better wait until Mule Deer season. Shoot him and I will come and tell you how to tag him"

(our tags are specie srecific in Texas, MD season occurs in the middle of WT season).

I think some people see a MD charachteristic in a WT and call him a hybrid. (forked G2's or Muley face etc.) I wonder, is thee a lab that could test this. IV, you wouldn't know anyone that could do this would you?

Here is a buck my daughter shot last year. It is in an area that has both WT and MD. It face is narrow like a whitetail but ears and color are like a MD. Tail is longer and whiter then normal.





As opposed at a 100% muley

Looks like a MD to me....I wouldn't call it a hybrid anyhow. Looks like you daughter doesn't care what it is!! That's a nice buck she harvested.

MG

Looks like a mulie to me too. The G's don't always split and you get a whitie looking rack.

Congrats on your daughter's kill though! If I had to guess I'd say that you took those pictures in the vast wilds of Eastern MT.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

Doc, what the hell were you doing on my ranch?

oh, just sneaking around...mindin my own bidniz, looking for a 46" inch muley.

mt Al,
You are correct as I live in Glasgow. Eastern Montana born and raised.

Tnomen

WR: Here is the interesting thing about the misinformation that the game warden gave you; the courts have had very few cases in which to decide the issue, if a deer has genetic contributions from both types of deer (determining that an animal was 50/50 vs 75/25 vs 87.5/12.5 or even 50.00000002/49.99999998 would require an extensive sequencing analysis of the entire genome) is it illegal to shoot if it has mule deer alleles when mule deer season is closed or is it legal to shoot BECAUSE it has Whitetail alleles in it and Whitetail season is open? Yet another reason why states heve been reluctant to move into the issues of hybridization because it opens up a Pandoras box. Plus as I stated earlier, it just doesn't happen that often (current belief amongst many wildlife professionals) so until the issue is discussed more and researched more, it is a legal "gray" area.

I know of one case where a person defended against a poaching because he argued that under the ESA, hybrids are not protected, thus if hybrids are not recognized at the Federal level and judicial decisions have been made to exclude hybrids; then any animal which is a hybrid is not afforded any state protections with respect to game animal status and can be taken under the states non-game rules which often allow the taking of any non-game non-protected species if you have a valid general hunting license.

Ask a game warden some time what his or her definitioin of "species" is. You will be amazed. What is a whitetail or a mule deer? Antler configuration? Rump patch? Body color? Length of metatarsal gland? Now that we are looking at a molecular level rather than at an individual level a shift is starting to take place in which the term "species" is being replaced with the term ESU or evolutionarily significant unit. Thats a whole new pandoras box......

As far as a lab test...... hair, blood, tissue or feces?

IV

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

Doc, what the hell were you doing on my ranch?

oh, just sneaking around...mindin my own bidniz, looking for a 46" inch muley.

Good luck. You are a little too far North based on recent threads ...

I do wish I had those genetics in my area. I have seen a couple real nice MD, but that is only a couple in 13 years. Either our genetics are poor or people are killing the deer to young.

IV,

The Game Warden is probably just going to assign the deer a specie based on the general look of the animal. If a guy clearly shoots a MD and tries to claim it looks like a WT because the G2's dont fork, and it appears to have a WT rack, he will probably get a ticket and loose his deer.

I am sure it is on a case by case basis and different game wardens would decide differently.

You are right, it is a gray area of the law that allows for interpretation.

quote:

Here is a buck my daughter shot last year. It is in an area that has both WT and MD. It face is narrow like a whitetail but ears and color are like a MD. Tail is longer and whiter then normal

That is a muley in my book,I am no expert but i have found MD at a 3 point configuration
can have a rack that can look like a WT.
But in those pics it does not have any other
WT characteristics that I can see.
Still a buck to be proud of for any hunter.

Tnomen,

That first deer looks like a classic mulie body with a 100% whitetail headgear. Hard to tell, but the hair color does look more brown like a whitetail, but ALL other features sure lean my mulie-meter towards MULE DEER.

But who's to say, based on that set of antlers there's no doubt in my mind that it is a "diluted" mulie. I would speculate is certainly has whitetail in it's lineage.

It looks EXACTLY like a deer I watched ATTEMPTING to stott off a few years ago...and it was very clumsy like it simply couldn't decide the best method of escape.

Locally we have a "Pacific Mule Deer" that if I am correct is a cross between a Mulie and a Black tail. They are very cagey animals with behaviors that are more Blacktail than Mulie in our area.

My grandfather told me stories of some large Colorado Mule deer bucks that were imported in the 1920's to make the deer and racks bigger. The offspring that he saw and shot had large wide forked horns that never branched more than that. I don't think that there is much genetic evidence remaining.

The California sub-species is known as the odocoileus hemionus californicus; it is not necessarily a "cross" between blacktails (odocoileus hemionus columbianus) and rocky mountain mule deer (odocoileus hemionus hemionus) it is merely another subclassification of the hemionus. It more than likely evolved in the geographic niche that it occupies during the last recession of the glaciers. This theory explains why the O.h. hemionus species (rocky mountain) is generally larger. The last area to become uncovered by ice was the rocky mountains; dispersers of any given species tend to be the larger animals, thus the rocky mountain sub-species is a little larger on average. A lot of speculation surrounds the evolutionary history of hemionus as no fossils have been found which are more than 10000 years old (compared to almost 3000000 year old fossils of whitetail) It is speculated that columbianus and sitkensis may be much older as a species because the late Pleistocene did not cover the coastal areas completely in ice; as the glaciers receded, the species fanned out and natural selection took over from there.

If your really interested in this kind of stuff, Dr. Geists book is excellent (as noted above) but Dr. O. Wallmo's (1981) "Black-tailed and mule deer of North America" is an excellent source of nearly everything (save for genetics stuff----it was 1981 when he wrote it....) mule deer- behavior, reproduction, physiology, distribution, etc.

IV

In Oregon around the White River unit which borders the Santiam unit we run into deer we refer to Bench legs part Muleys and Blacktail huge bodies but very weak horns. They aslo have Roosevelt Elk and Rocky Mnt elk in that area again big bodies but very weak antlers. If you happen to shoot a big Roosevelt in the Mt.Hood National Forset in the Santiam unit they won't reconize it in the Records book as a Roosevelt.

I find this a serious problem. When I get stotted on scotch my gait gets funny looking also. I damn sure don't want some guy tagging me either. This needs more research, and scotch.........JJ

WOW, IV and I have found something we agree on, I try and read everything that I can that Dr. Valerius Geist had written. My favorite was Mule Deer Country, go figure. Anyway, about a year ago there was a guy that posted a pic over on MM, it was just a head shot of a deer and everybody there thought it was a desert mule deer, had the classic white face with the black forehead, it just looked exactly like a small 3x3 mule deer. There was quite a debate going on about the deer and then he finally posted a pic of the white tail. It looked to me like a classic mix but it was scored for SCI as a coues, I think the deer grossed in the 120s but will go back and verify. I will also try and post a link to the pics. It was very interesting

DTH

Went back and found it, the pics dont show up so you might have to click on properties and paste them into a search engine to get them to come up.

quote:

If I can find them I have some good photos taken in 89 on the golf couorse in Saratoga of

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