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I have stolen my wife's 30-30 and made it punch holes in paper very well. The reason is that last year at deer camp my .338 was too long and handled too clumsily to get on-target. It's a great rifle at 200 meters plus, but most of the deer at camp bust out of the bush at less than 50. When I bought her the 30-30, I put a 4 - 12 variable Simmons on it. This works fine, but 4X is just too much juice for quick work in the woods. So, what's the best idea for finding your target when it's moving at close range in heavy cover? I have no problem with open sights, and am leaning that way. Any experience with the enhanced sights? kk | ||
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For fast target acquisition, I prefer a peep. The Ashley Outdoors Ghost ring is my favorite. A friend (470 Mbogo, actually) recently put a forward mounted ghost ring on his DGR. I am very impressed and will likely be copying him in the near future. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I like open express type sights for fast close work, with a scope in a QD mount, for those times when it helps shot placement. | |||
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quote:I just looked at the Ashley site, and it looks like it doesn't support the Marlin 336CS. Is that true? Also, what does "forward-mounted" entail? kk | |||
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For heavy timber back home (Montana), I used a fairly low-powered scope. I'd use a 1.5, 2, or 2.5x to 5x. A heavy duplex or post reticle, and I shoot with both eyes open. Just look at the game and bring the scope between, plant the crosshairs and boom. It's alot like shooting a shotgun. RKBA! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I havn't found much differants in scope powers of 4 and under I use a 1.75 to 6 on my 300 sav for whitetails. No trouble finding running deer. The secret to finding the target is to practice practice and practice some more bringing the rifle to your shoulder and getting it on target. 50 times aday wouldn't be to much until you feel good at it. Also having the scope mounted properly surely helps. Then when you think your good practice some more. One good way is to practice finding flying birds in the scope as they go by. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} I find bats a lot harder to get a scope on. | |||
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In no particular order: Iron Peep(coarse of course) Millett SP-1 red dot 2.5X or less glass All with BOTH eyes open. I prefer the peep if there is enough light, ditto for iron. The SP-1 is a marvel in low light. | |||
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Pdog: HAW! I live in urban Canada! I can just imagine what would happen if I took my rifle out back and started trying to scope my bats. Not to say it's not a good idea. It's just that Canada is more tight-assed about rifles than Hillary is about missing files. kk | |||
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kk, My 2 suggestions: First drop power for short range field of view. In scopes I use nothing greater than 6x (actually a 1.75-6) for big game and most of my firearms wear fixed 2.5 or 3x scopes. If you like irons nothing beats a ghost ring peep. If you use a Williams you can use the insert when sighting in and then take it out or replace it with a larger diameter hole for hunting. Second point your weak hand trigger finger along the forearm. I started doing this trap shooting a few years ago and it does help. Look at the target, extend your index finger along the forearm and use it to point the rifle at the target. Even with your non-dominant hand the finger will point very close to the target. Hope this helps, Bob | |||
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When I used to live in Louisiana, and most of my shots were short, and in heavy cover, I used a Leupold Vari-X II 1x4x20, and rarely took it off of 1x. I shot with both eyes open, and target acquisition was very quick on moving targets. The scope also helped over iron sights when picking a shot through cover. | |||
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For irons or scope, you need both eyes open, so you can keep your eyes ont he game while mounting. I use mostly scopes, and a variable with a low power of 2.5 or 1.5 is just fine at close range. If it's within 50 yards, bring the rifle up, both eyes open, put the crosshairs where you want them, swing with the animal, and pull the trigger....Swing and keep on swinging, just like birds...At that range I wouldn't lead them. aim for shoulder, you'll either hit it or jsut behind. I don't use irons alot, but I like aperture sights when I do. They are very fast, all you have ot do is get your front sight into the rear and pull the trigger. | |||
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In north Florida we hunt deer with hounds and I've shot a lot of running deer. I use a Simmons 2.8-10 Aetec scope. Yes... A much lower powered scope would give me a wider field of view but I've practiced a LOT on quick target aquisition and have found that I can do it with ANY rifle/scope combination if I practice and if it fit's me well. I also agree on holding on the front shoulder and swinging at any range (within reason). I've only shot one deer too far back in over 20 years of hunting with hounds and he expired on the spot anyway. Most of my shots are from 80-125 yds and I rarely need even one follow up shot. Another thing I recommend on running deer in thick cover. Use a 30 caliber or bigger to give you the penetration at any angle to the vitals. I also use the 150gr Nosler Partition. I always get good expansion and full penetration. My personal favorite rifle is a Model 7 in 308 but there are many other good choices. $bob$ | |||
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I'm a big fan of a low-powered scope, heavy duplex crosshairs, shot with both eyes open. For more than 20 years, I was content with the peep on my close-quarters rifle, a .44 Ruger carbine. As my eyes aged, I switched to a Leupold VXIII 1.5-4.5. Set on 1.5x, I find it's faster than the peep, particularly in low light and shadows. | |||
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kk, if you don't have eye cross-dominance, or a weak dominant eye (like I do), a large rear aperture is the ticket. I agree with Gunny Bob's suggestion of a Williams. You can use a small (.05 to .09) aperture for sighting in or if you expect longer shots, and a larger aperture (.15 to .2 in.) for hunting at close range. If you do have eye dominance problems, a low power scope or Aimpoint-type optics will work better. [ 07-03-2003, 18:16: Message edited by: Orion 1 ] | |||
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KK, I'm with P Dog shooter all the way on this. Put a 1.5x5 on the thing and practice, practice, practice. Set your scope on 1.5 and stand in the privacy of your living room. (gun unloaded of course) Decide a point of aim (wall switch, target, mother-in-law's picture, whatever) and turn your back to it. At a mental count of three, turn and bring the rifle up and sight on the target. Also look at a point of aim and without looking at the rifle, bring it up and put the scope between your eye and the poa. Practice slowly at first and then increase the rapidity as it becomes more natural. Practice until, when you see game, you are not conscious of the gun coming up and the scope interposing between you and the target. I never cease to be amazed at the number of folks that can punch little-bitty holes from the comfort of a bench and can't find their quarry thru the scope when they're in the field. | |||
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quote:Of course, that's because they only shoot from the bench before going hunting. Hunting magazines help perpetrate that incompetence with their constant coverage of shooting for tiny groups from benches. American Rifleman is the only magazine I've ever seen do an article on position shooting and its applications afield. Rifle, for example, devoted one entire article by Biran Pearce in its last issue to accurate shooting, all geared to getting nice, small groups from a bench. Yeah, that's useful. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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All things being equal, a very low power scope, 2.5X or preferably less, will be the fastest with which to acquire the sight picture. This is because your eye must only focus on one thing -- the sight picture in the scope. That said, the problem with using a scope on a Marlin 336 and many other rifles is that the drop of the stock is excessive with even the lowest mounted scope to align your eye when your cheek is properly welded to the butt. This causes you to have to lift your head slightly off of the stock and momentarily search for the scope picture. Unfortunately, too much drop in the stock is a problem even for many bolt action rifles which are presumably made for scope usage. Were it not for the stock drop problem, I'd recommend a Leupold 1-4X or a Weaver 1-3X or something similar. I have a wonderful old Weaver K1.5 for similar use that I just love. However, the next best alternative is a peep sight with a fairly large aperture. The peep only requires your eye to focus on the front sight and the target, so it is much quicker to use than the open sight with requires your eye to do the optical gymnastics of trying to focus on the rear sight, front sight, and target simultaneously. Because your eye focus is both slower and more acute as you age, you'll find open sights increasingly difficult to use if you're over 40 or so. | |||
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quote:There's the real reason why so many people can't seem to shoot irons sights. The ONLY place to focus when shooting ANY kind of iron sight combination (rear aperture/front post, rear leaf/front post, front and rear aperture) is ON THE FRONT SIGHT . You DO NOT shift focus around like you describe. doing so is a sure fire recepie for a miss, either completely or worse yet, a hit outside the vitals. I'll go with G. David Tubb on this, as he's been the US National High Power Rifle Champion ten times in a row, all shooting iron sights. | |||
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It's almost unAmerican to put a scope on the 94 Winchester ....I like a Receiver sight, mine have a Williams or a shallow V....both are fast enough for me...Nothing handles like a 94 win.,everybody knows that, including John Wayne..I kill my Idaho deer every year with a 25-35 and a Brockmon peep...It works great... It is very possible to get a 338 that fits and handles well in fast shooting, all my iron sighted big bores point like a 410 Holland and Holland....but of course the stock must be made for you and that runs into a lot of money.... | |||
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Orion: I didn't mean to convey that with open sights your focus switches back and forth between three different focus planes, which is, of course, impossible. What I intended to convey is that all three objects -- rear sight, front sight, and target, must be in clear enough focus to effectively aim the gun. This is very difficult to do for older shooters, and is slower than other types of sighting systems for younger shooters. I would beg to differ that it is only the front sight, with any iron sight arrangement, that must be in focus. The front sight is usually about 24 to 30 inches from the eye, which makes it much less out of focus when looking at the all-important target than the rear sight, which is usually only ten to twelve inches from the eye. It is both the target AND the front sight which must be reasonably clear to the shooter in order to aim accurately. With the rear aperture sight, there is no need to focus on it since the eye can center the front sight in it without it being in sharp focus, and the aperture even helps bring both the front sight and target into better focus simultaneouosly. As a matter of fact, (and this digresses from the subject a bit) a small aperture will allow a much deeper range of focus, allowing BOTH the front sight and the target to be in clear focus. This is the same phenomenon which allows your SLR camera to have a deeper field of focus when the aperture is turned down to admit less light than when you have the aperture wide open. | |||
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quote:Agree with your first paragraph. Sufferers of presbyopia are the most affected. Most presbyotic shooters cannot shoot even target grade aperture sights unless they use a corrective lens in their front or rear aperture. NRA rules allow one or the other, but not both, as it then would be a telescopic sight. You are most definitely incorrect in your second paragraph. The only element in the sighting system that must be in crytal clear focus is the front sight. All other elements (target and rear sight) will appear fuzzy to some degree, and it is not important that they be clear to the eye. Agree with your third paragraph. That is why my National Match AR-15 has a .040 rear aperture. Even an aperture that small provides enough field of view to hit game, if your eye is as close as it should be. I strongly suggest you ask competent highpower shooters (masters and high masters) if you think I'm wrong about having 110% of your visual focus on the front sight. | |||
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KK, I would put a low power scope... I also would practice using the scope and shooting it with both eyes open...I can do this and I learned it by practicing on groundhogs stalking near and jump shooting them running and shooting before they get in their den.. Or another option is a holographic sight bushnell makes a red circle with red dot in center and I believe there is no magnification really cool looking thru...Check it out... Mike Freedom is not Free | |||
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Yes,almost all being said: both eyes open,lo power or irons (Holosight is cool,I wouldn�t put it on a hunting rifle though - got one on a pistol) and the scope position. It has to be right there when you lift. Took me a while to get one mounted right for me on a Marlin 1895. Lift,yes. Another very important thing, shooting claybirds helped me a lot. And dry firing: look at the target,close your eyes,lift,see where you aim. I do that a lot with all kind of guns. | |||
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quote:That is indeed the general thrust of todays optics vs iorns philosophy and is basically true. However Ive never noticed myself being especially "mentaly taxed" due to the use of iorn sights. IMHO the use of iorn sights takes no more concentration than the use of both eyes with a scope in order to keep the target in sight, maybe even less. Its really not as bad as its made out to be, the rear sight serves the same purpose as a rear arpeture sight or the "getting into focus" factor that occurs when using a scope, to place the frontal/crosshair/aimpoint on the proper plane in reference with the rifle to the shooter. This is something that must be done irreguardless of the method, there are simply different means of acheiving it. For those who do not keep both eyes open with a scope, (which also requires a good deal of concentration) it means momentarily losing sight of the target. This is an open sight advantage over using a scope. I think that open sight use is becoming a lost art and its too bad. About 90% of my battery is scoped and I have enjoyed the advantage of magnified optics very much, but to me, nailing a tough target with iorns is very feasible and gratifying. Another thing I would mention about iorns on a 30-30 is the ability to actually see where youve hit. That can help to make your shooting VERY deadly in a relativley short time and is usefull with quick brush shots. If I knew for a fact that ALL of my shots were going to be within open sight range then they would be my preferance, but where I hunt that is not the case. I find myself cranking up the variable power for a better look on a regular basis. Having said all of that, a low powered scope with lots of eye relief and a post recticule is also a sure winner in the short stuff. [ 07-05-2003, 19:02: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ] | |||
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Neither rifle is really ideal for hunting whitetails in my opinion. I really don't favor iron sights for game hunting for safety reasons and for shooting the game either. I have shot a lot of whitetails and done crop damage shooting. There are all kinds of shots and situations but one of the most frustrating is when you identify a shootable deer and it moves just out of sight. This can happen at close range or short. At this point my safety is off and I am searching for a sign of the deer. This is where a clear scope of about 4X works really well. Right now I am buying the 2X7 Leu VX1's and putting them on various game rifles when it's the deer and bear season. They are a little better than a fixed 4X. I am not saying to scope an area with your rifle scope. I am saying that a scope is far safer to identify your target when it's time to shoot. If the .338 does not have too long of a LOP then I could be used for whitetails just fine with the proper scope which again I feel is something along the lines of a 2-7. Others like 3-9 are fine too but bulkier than wanted most of the time. Don't get peep sights unless the 94 is for running after stuff with dogs and shooting it at 25 feet. Now all this is just my opinion. I use peep sights for target shooting and open sights on pistols. I just feel that the proper scope is an advantage in both game getting and being safe. | |||
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