There is a very controversial discussion concerning wolves going on in one of the forum rooms. The wolves are here to stay, the anti's will never allow a hunting season no matter what laws are passed. Just look how long wolves have been in Mn. Wis. and Mich. and no hunting or control. It involves the REMF's pro wolf stance. But an interesting fact is that the wolves were intorduced in Wyoming. The law on the books clearly states that no non-native species can be released into Wyoming. Yet canadian wolves were released. The game and fish has no comment on the wolf issue either pro or con. Yet they defend chukars, huns, pheasants all intorduced. On the other hand they wage a war on whitetail deer, long seasons, liberal quotas, so as to reduce the naturaly occuring whitetail. Then there a few species of fish, walleye and lake trout in unwanted waters. The G&F works diligently to eradicate them from certain waters. And they were possibly intorduced or naturally occuring. I don't think they know which way to turn. Depends on the agenda of the biologist involved.

[ 07-04-2003, 23:15: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

Re-electing George W. in 2004 will probably help get the wolf delisted beause he won't have to cater anymore to the liberals and moderates to win re-election. We can then get more conservatives on the supreme court to go our way when the antis and wolf huggers take it to court. If the wolf is delisted they will take it all the way up.

The anit's tryed to stop are dove season too they lost. I belive we will have a limit hunt in wis. in 10 years. The population growing by leaps and bounds. Most likey be by permit and drawing.

Funny thing is that there are far more wolves in Minnesota than in the Rocky Mountain states, but there is also an over abundant supplier of deer in Minnesota too! What there isn't in Minnesota is: minimal rain fall, open range cattle overgrazing, and winter feed plots set up for deer to keep them from starving to death therefore maintaining an artificially inflated game population.

Just to even things up I suggest that elk be reintroduced to the eastern US! Just imagine the despair of the bunny huggers when their SUVs run into elk crossing the interstates! Besides, I would love to hunt elk in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas, etc. Much closer than the Rocky Mountains and greener too! The denser forests of these states would make the hunt a true hunt and not a mere glassing of practically bare mountain sides!

One last thing. Wolves were a naturally occuring species in Wyoming before white ranchers eradicated them. I do not think that the law you are referring to is going to bear much fruit since your argument is not even worthy of being called "splitting hairs".

Lucs

[ 07-05-2003, 06:42: Message edited by: 500 A2 ]

The RMEF reintroduced elk here in Ontario and their thriving and we got a crap load of wolves. Maybe your elk are just dumb .In ten years we`ll have to send some wolf smart elk back out to you guys .

Looks like we will have a limited hunt in Wis when the herd reachs 350 it is at 120 right now growing at 20% per year. Most likely it well be a MI. like draw once in life time.

What the nay sayers don't want to admit is that the Rocky Mountain elk have been hand fed for years and years. Maximum herd to draw those hunters and tourist in with their big bucks. The elk are practically tame. So, wolves, being wolves, are going to invite a few elk out for dinner. And the elk, being tame, are going to go. It will take a while, but once the dumb ones get thinned out, things will work out, I think, for the best. Folks that shoot an elk may have to actually get out of their SUVs and hunt an elk but that will be good for them.
When coyotes started showing up in WV, every hot stove game expert said they would wipe out the deer. Well, there's more deer in WV right now than there has ever been.

[ 07-05-2003, 22:42: Message edited by: beemanbeme ]

Interesting, 5 of the 7 posts from people who live in areas that have neither wolves nor Elk.

12 calves per hundred cows in Yellowstone. 30 calves per hundred cows needed to keep population stable. Calf to cow ratio has gone down every year since Wolves were reintroduced. It is now a rare occurance to even see an Elk in Yelloswtone on the road system.

1400 permits in Gardiner this year, 2200 last year and 3000 the year before. The Yellowstone herd is down from 20,000 when the wolves were introduced to 8,500 this year. Both Wyoming and Montana are seriosly reducing Elk tags in the Yellowstone area.

Instead of Elk in the midwest we need to plant alot more wolves and cougars.

beemanbeme! You sound like a real authority on elk! Hot stove game expert! Isn't that the "pot calling the kettle black"? The only elk being hand fed are on two feed grounds and that is not even 20% of the Wyoming elk population. In Jackson they are hand fed only in the hardest part of winter usually around Dec. 10th. The other is the Snake River feed ground south and west of Jackson. The reason these elk are fed is becuase of human encroachment on the elks natural wintering and feeding areas. Jackson has so many ranchettes that have blocked thier natural routes and winter migratin routes to the Red Desert. So what else can you do? Feed them or let them starve.

As for the rest of the ROCKY MOUNTAIN elk that you mention that are hand fed I don't know of any. The elk in the area I hunt, 35 miles from Worland Wy. are as wild as elk can get. They sure don't stand around waiting to be hand fed.

And comparing the coyotes to wolves is like comparing apples to oranges. NO COMPARISON! A study was done by the University of Nebraska a few years back on coyote depredation. Over 70% of a coyotes diet is mice, rabbits, and other small game. They, like the wolves, are opportunists, eat and catch what is easiest. For a small coyote that is vermin, for a wolf it is elk calves. So if you remove 70% or 80% of the elk calf crop what do you have left? Not a very big population of elk. Wolves are preying on new born and young calves not mature elk! The yellowstone park documented this in a report on winter elk population this last winter. Lowest elk count since 1960"s and fewest calves in 9 years. So with your commment and arm chair biological assumption of Rocky Mountain elk I think you are wrong and way off base. And as for SUV road hunters I am yet to see one in 18 years of elk hunting in Wy. Maybe that is the way they do it back in West Virginia but I am sorry I never see it here. And as we say in Wyoming "Your in Wyoming now"! We don't give a damn how you did it back home"!

[ 07-06-2003, 04:51: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

I agree, lets take a truck load of grizzlies and wolves and turn them loose in the east! Man would that be a riot! The Smokies would be a good place to start!

Mickey1,
I spend a great deal of time in northern Minnesota where I have both friends and relatives. True there are no elk there, but there are well over 2500 wolves and tens of thousands of deer, if not hundreds of thousands! The wolf population numbers are not big secrets either, the break down is:
1.) Approximately 700 wolves in the Idaho, Montana, Wyoming area.

2.) Approximately 2500 wolves in Minnesota.

3.) Approximately 400 wolves in Wisconsin.

4.) Approximately 300 wolves in Michigan.

5.) Less than 200 wolves in the desert southwest states.

This information can be obtained from the individual states DNRs or from the US Dept. of the Interior.

The Yellowstone elk herd is down due more to pressure from the dramatically increasing bison herd than from wolves. Just as increased elk populations result in a decreased mule deer population the same is true with the bison versus the elk.

So in order to maintain the cash flow of the affluent eastern hunters to Wyoming's economy you must eradicate the bison along with the wolf. Also, to my knowledge there are far more than two feed stations in Wyoming to keep the elk herd alive through the winter months. I have many friends and relatives in both Colorado and Wyoming. I am familiar with the politics and the economics of this argument. Please spare me the bullshit. The herds are far from wild and have no comprehension of a predator outside of the occasional grizzly, which is typically only half-heartedly interested in chasing an elk. Besides that elk will always run leaving the slowest, the calf, to be eaten by the wolf, cougar, or bear. The bison on the other hand will protect their calves. Therefore, insuring that the herd continues to grow. So again you must kill off the bison along with the wolf. They will continue to increase until one herd covers states.

Kudu56,
Personally, I have no problem with releasing grizzlies back here in the eastern states. Problem with that is the grizzly is a western critter, while the wolf covered almost all the North American continent. Truthfully though, I would much rather see elk brought back to the eastern states. The eastern states were as a matter of fact the areas of greatest elk population before the white settlers eradicated them.

Beemanbeme,
I am impressed by our knowledge of the Rocky Mountain elk situation. I get sick to my stomach with all this marketing hype about how wild these rocky mountain elk are. If you are hunting in winter feed area you are almost insured a good elk. Problem is there are not enough winter feed areas to go around for all the outfitters so many hunters don't see a single elk. The guys hunting around a winter feed area however will potentially see hundreds of elk.

To all you Rocky Mountain guys. Why do you suppose that the Pacific Northwest does not have the out of state hunter attraction for elk that the Rockies do? I hope you all realize that Oregon and Washington possess more elk than Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana combined. I will explain it to you. First a question for you, ever walk through the temperate rain forests of Washington and Oregon? I can usually spot an elk from two miles away in the Rockies. I could be 50 feet from one in the Olympic Pennisula and not see it! Shooting elk, mule deer, and antelope is easy in the Rockies. Plain and simple. You spot them from a distance and sneak up on them. No big deal. In Washington or Oregon you must become a tracking phantom to sneak up on an elk or black tail. That simple. You must be able to track and move silently. Neither are commonly known skills any longer.

I apologize for the rant, I feel better now. I just wanted you to know that I know you are bullshitting.

Seriously though please tell you Congressmen to push for reintroduction of the elk to the eastern USA! Make us pay. One you get the elk reintroduced you may push to reintroduce the wolf! Baby steps.

Lucs

[ 07-06-2003, 05:29: Message edited by: 500 A2 ]

I will add that if you, Mickey want us to believe that 700 wolves of the west killed 11500 elk in Yellowstone then I know for a fact that you know nothing about wolves. As far as people not living where there`s wolves, wrong again, 1 hour from my front door and you can listen to them howl at the moon. I might add that the same place has the highest moose population per square mile in Ontario and they introduced elk there 3 years ago. Number one cause of mortality was not wolves it was cars and deer hunters who mistake 6X6 bulls for whitetails

Top five elk states as per USF&W!
Colorado - 203,000
Oregon - 120,000
Idaho - 116,000
Wyoming - 102,439
Montana - 93,401

Lets see, hot stove game expert with friends in Wy and Co. The above information is from USFW counts. Spare me the bullshit Mr. Flatlander. Oregon and Washington have more elk than than Colorado, Montana, and Wyoming combined! NOT! You forgot Idaho. Where do you do your game counts from? Your Suv? Along a corn field? I could care less about any western elk hype that you talk of. The fewer nonresident experts like you and the better the quality of hunting for me! We have elk in the desert and in the mountains. Less than 20% use the feed grounds. There are 3 state feed grounds, used by about 3000 elk and of course Jackson, 7,000 to 12,000. You see there are elk else where than Jackson. Very few outfitters hunt the feed ground areas. The feed ground elk are hunted by residents and non-residents wanting a cow for the freezer. Or couldn't draw a bull tag. Most of them are anterless elk hunts. Not many outfitters book cow hunters. Except guys from Iowa that want to go home and brag of the rigorous rocky mountain elk hunt they were on.

I have hunted the rain forests of Alaska, much the same as Washington and Oregon. No biggee, just walk and look. I shot a big black bear, spot and stalk, and I could have shot a truck load of greyhound size deer. They pop up and you shoot them. Easiest hunt I was ever on. Here you have to walk the two miles that you spot them from, stalk in open country, shoot them, pack them on your back or a horse back to your truck. Not in a rainforest at 50 feet, you could use a spear. And not drive up and roll the window down and shoot like you deer hunt in Iowa.

Have you thought about the higher numbers of buffalo? Its simple, the wolves won't attack a buffalo when a young elk calf is easier, so fewer elk mean more buffalo. No competion for the grass any more and no depredation by predators. This means more buffalo. And yes there is a problem with them but it is an uphill battle like delisting the wolf. Even if the wolf is delisted only a few will be shot by hunters. Hunting will have little affect on wolf populations much the same as coyotes and hunters.

The herds are far from wild? Your a real comedian. Come out and show me how you walk up to our pet elk and feed them. You have been to Jellystone one to many times. I guess two trips makes you an expert.

So spare me all your bullshit and do us a favor and stay in Iowa! A sneaking phantom! LOL! Man I have heard it all! LOL! LMAO! It will be a cold day in hell that I would write my senator and ask that our elk be sent back east. What would we get in return? A rabbit?

[ 07-06-2003, 22:23: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

There is an interesting post by the Yellowstone biologist on the Yellowstone web page concerning what and how much the wolves have eaten. I think in a year one pack ate over 300 elk. There are 150 wolves as of 2002 in Yellowstone. How much meat can a 100 pound to 150 pound canine eat? Five pounds a day? 150 wolves, thats 750 pounds per day! Thats an elk a day. 365 days in a year, times say 4 years. Yeah thats only 1460 eaten. They do kill more that they don't eat and they do kill just to kill. That is just in the park. Now, 700 wolves in yellowstone ecosystem, times 5 pounds per day, 3500 pounds of elk meat a day, times 365 days, 1,277,500 per year times 7 years that they have been here, 650 # per elk weight, thats about 13,219 elk! yup is possible. It isn't rocket sience. We aren't planting corn here! What else are they supposed to eat? Moose areas around the park have had the quotas reduced to only a handfull of tags. Along the east side of the park you won't even see a moose any more. Do you suppose aliens took them? Maybe thats what happened to the elk to!

[ 07-06-2003, 07:50: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

The Biologist that studied the Lamar Valley pack documented the "Thrill" kill of elk calves by wolves. The pack killed over 40 calves (can't remember the exact number) in less than 2 hours. Most were not fed upon. This was not an isolated occurance. Moose calves are down to 0 calves per 100 cows in some areas of Yellowstone.

As for feeding Game animals, most (especially those East of CO and WY) don't understand the complexity of the issue. Many areas of the West have vast amounts of summer range for the ungulate populations. BUT the Winter range is much smaller and limited. Human encroachment on the winter ranges has depleted and destroyed the winter food source for many of these herds. The animals that Migrate, sometimes over 100 miles, from summer to winter range find subdivisions built where they once wintered. Thus, feeding elk on a limited basis off-sets the destruction critical winter ranges.

Now these ungulates must congregate between snow that is too deep and cities. Put the wolf in the mix and the elk have no where to go. They go in the city to get away from the wolves and they are killed. They can't go up the mountain in 8 feet of snow. Wolves have it easier than ever before in history.

As for feeding wildlife. Why are there so many Whitetails back east?? Well there are no predators of any significance because locals won't allow them in their backyards. Also because farmers have created an enormous food source rich in protiens to sustain herd growth. I'd say whitetails are just as man sustained as the elk in Jackson.

MI and WI have shown that wolves may work well with whitetails as their prey source. Lets turn some loose in WV and IA where they have "too many" deer.

I never have been able to understand the wolf numbers game. If wolves kill as many elk/deer/whatever as everyone claims then back in the mid-1800s when wolves were everywhere, they must have eaten all the elk and deer on earth, meaning it is impossible for them to still exist, yet they do. Damn strange.

So we must now have some kind of new super, serial killer wolf running up and down the valleys killing everything that moves. Damn strange.

Everywhere I used to hunt in New Mexico I see more elk than mule deer. In the northeast part of the State I saw probably 150 elk while hunting, but not one mule deer. It was spooky. Maybe the SSK wolf in New Mexico just eats mule deer. Damn strange.

I'm depressed that I believe I read that Kentucky allows elk to be killed in deer season. The CWD has got them spooked so they want to irradicate elk. (I may have my State mixed up here.) Texas allows exotics to be shot year-round if they are not behind a high fence. This type of behaviour just seems to show a lack of respect for game animals in general. We like to play God moving animals around the world, and usually do a pretty good job of just screwing up Mother Nature.

By the way I'm getting tire of those feel good nature shows on the Discovery Channel. To create entertainment, tons of money is spent to make a feel-good documentary where a bunch of Whites show a bunch of Blacks how to "save" a few individual animals; usually in some poor African country. They've created a cottage industry for producing these made-for-T.V. quasi-documentaries.

Kensco, many old timers who live in this part of the country remember the day when there were wolves here before re-introduction. They will all tell you there were no deer and damn few elk. Now we have nice populations of elk, rapidly declining though, and good deer herds. I am sorry but I would rather go look at elk and deer than a wolf! And when it comes to shooting and eating for damn sure the elk takes precidence

[ 07-07-2003, 07:20: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

It is false thinking to compare the west of the late 1800's, to the west of today. Deer and elk were better able to survive against wolves by sheer amount of territory they were spread over, now they are forced to live in pockets of wilderness, and high plains/desert country. This makes it much easier for the wolves to locate and hunt these animals. Wolves also will kill just for the sake of killing, same as mountain lion or coyotes will, they do not prey on the old and sick as the tree hugging dipshits would like us to believe. They need to start managing wolves and grizzly bears, they are neither an endangered or threatened species. It is easy to talk about wolves and such when you haven't seen what they are capable of, there needs to be a balance, and we fit into that equation just as much as a damn wolf or grizzly bear does.

Well, as MGC and AKBman have pointed out, the wolves aren't the problem, it's all the people building houses on the Elks' winter range. It's just a little easier to blame it on the Big Bad Wolf!

Bring 'em on. And as far as never seeing road hunters in Wyoming, I'm throwing the biggest bullshit flag on that one that I can find. And the strange thing is these trucks, three in the cab, two in the back, have Wyoming tags on them. I guess you folks don't pin trophy antelope against a sheep fence and run them to exhaustion and shoot them out of the truck window either. Give me a break.

M1Rage,
You may have taken my comments a bit out of context. People have definitely encroached on the wildlife, but why re-introduce an animal that is neither threatened nor endangered? The wolves have in fact but a big hurting on the elk populations. Whom have they benefited? The anit-hunters, and the tree huggers. Do more people go to Yellowstone because there are wolves? NO!! The park was operating at capacity long before wolves were brought back. Obviously there are a lot of folks here who could give a shit about the people from any other state, if you don't live, work and try to raise a family there, I say mind your own business. If the folks back east want wolves so much, let them have them. I am hopeful that Alaska will once again have an active predator management plan. Don't tell me what to do in my back yard!

AKBman,
I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to do in your back yard. I just find it amusing that we(hunters) get ticked off when peta tries to save the bushy tailed, spotted tree rat(the cute one), but leaves the sewer rat(the ugly one) alone. Yet we choose to only want the animals that are good for our interests to live in our "back yards". While I enjoy being at the top of the food chain, I don't get worried about being replaced by other predators. It may take a while for the balance to return, and you'll probably never have the number of Elk you're used to, but the Habitat will be much better with a CONTROLLED population of wolves. I'm not for or against you, just giving my opinion. As far as your "Send them wolves back east and see how they like it" battle cry goes, bring 'em on, and the Elk, and the bears while you're at it. I would love to see all the native species back where they should be. Any of us true outdoorsmen should. JMHO

AKB/Kudu, "don't tell me what to do in my backyard". That would be great if it was indeed your backyard. Isn't the greater portion of Alaska "federal" land held in trust for ALL the people of America?? Isn't the marjority of Wyoming BLM land that belongs to ALL Americans? Since, in Wyoming, Tourist/hunters bring in more money to the state than livestock and agriculture, maybe it would help the elk herds if all grazing leases on BLM land were terminated. Then, maybe, the elk wouldn't have to be fed in the winter since their range wouldn't be eaten to the roots by sheep and cattle. That's just a thought. Also wonder what would happen if all the hunters, east of the big river, were to write their Senators complaining about the grazing abuses by the sheep/cattle industry in Wyoming. Do you reckon the 750,000 folks (if the population is still that high) in Wyoming could stem the groundswell? So, you see, when you tell anyone that doesn't actually LIVE in Wyoming to butt out, its none of our bsiness, that's not actually true. We do have a dog in this fight and it might be a great big one.

I think the reason the wolves and bears didn't kill more game animals in the late 1800s is that the meat hunters were too busy decimating the herds. There wasn't much left for the four-legged predators.

Which is why I think that most "Federal Lands" should be returned to the States. Tourism is going to be the ruination of hunting in many states, especially Alaska. Beemanbeme, you sound like a "want my cake, and eat it to" kind of person.

Just to set the record straight Kentucky does not allow the shooting of Elk durning deer season. I also think it was poor planning to realease wolf. I would venture to say and I could be wrong that are lot of the people that yelled for releasing them will never see them. The people who will are the ranchers trying to make a living like the one I read about in a local paper who was having his dogs killed by them. I dont live in the west those people do and it is not right for me to dump a problem on them. From were I live I can drive to Canada just as easy as the west if I must see a wolf. They have plenty of them and sense enough to allow hunting of them.

Anyone with a serious interest in how much game was here before the white man came to Idaho (that is, with wolves), should read the diaries of Lewis and Clark.

The poor suckers darn near starved to death crossing Idaho. FWIW, Dutch.

AKB, of course I am. Isn't everybody?

beemanbeme, you talk as though all of Wyomings elk are on or use feed grounds, less than 20 percent do. As for public land, 50% of Wy is public but private supports a larger portion of the game mainly due to the fact that private is irrigated and farmed. The rest is pretty arid and doesn't support game year round. There are less than 500,000 people in Wy and we could give a shit less what you or the rest of the country does. Even though we have to live with your liberal bullshit ideas and rules and laws.

I hope and have written to senators wanting all federal lands be returned to the state and Mike Enizi, US senator has brought the issue to light and it may happen. We can only hope. Then a states issues can be handled with in the state. And not have some armachair polotician or game expert from the east trying to say what is right and what is wrong. Give me a break and go back to watching the animal planet.

[ 07-12-2003, 06:28: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

Good post trapdoor, all of your information was confirmed by the G&F and in most of the states papers.

No I have never seen the hunting tactics that you speak of beemanbeme, Sorry I dont associate with those types. If it was happening the ones doing it are from your neck of the woods visiting family. There are lots of Wy residents from the coal mining area of your state and they bring thier hunting technics with them. Don't put me in that category.

Beeman, We have the vice president on our side, so bring the big dog and see what happens. And as for the land that the elk use, you being such an expert and all, very few of the elk that use the feed grounds live on BLM ground. They use National Forest ground then winter on federal ground because so many easterners have built homes on the natural winter feed areas. We have elk on BLM ground but they don't use or are not even close to the feed grounds.

[ 07-12-2003, 06:42: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

Kudu, well, OF COURSE, its somebody else's fault. All those easterners and hillbillies. I guess they steal Wyoming Tags and put them on their trucks while they're up there. ROFLMAO. The point I was making is that a great portion of Wyoming is held by the feds so its rather ludicrous for you folks to tell out of state hunters to butt out. Especially since a great deal of your state income comes from out of state hunters. It also quite funny for folks like you to assume so much with so very little information. For instance, since I now live in WV, that I am some real life fugitive from Deliverance. Too, that since you do live in
Wyoming, you have some sort of secret knowledge about the state that anyone with access to a computer couldn't gain.
For the last fifteen years, I have spent a month or two in Wyoming. That doesn't make me an expert on the state but I know quite a few folks up there and I think I have a pretty good insight. I've help cull sheep, herd sheep, herd cattle, build fence and do a lot of the ordinary task one does on a working ranch. Plus I've left enough cash in the various saloons to feel I have a definite vested interest in the state.
Before the wolves were introduced, I was against it. Because the ranchers I knew were against it. But, its a done do. Again, I feel like the ranchers do, learn to live with it and don't lose a whole lot of sleep over it. Now that it is done, I have to say I kinda like knowing there are places in the United States that are more nearly wild.

I am glad you enjoy the thought of more wild places. Wyoming hasn't changed, it the same as before except with fewer elk. And as we have said over and over, more wolves mean fewer elk, deer, moose and sheep. Which means fewer opportunities for everyone to enjoy. And fewer tags will mean higher prices. I am glad you are happy the wolf is here, I work on ranches and farms on a daily basis as well in the oil fields. I haven't met one person who is exicted about the wolves in Wyoming. Your arm chair rhetoric of what you percieve by an occasional visit is just a biased oppinion with no basis. And we all know that opinions are like ass holes!

Very little of our states income comes from out of state hunters. The Game and Fish income comes from out of staters. The G&F is a total seperate entity. No affiliation to state budgets or income. The pitence that is spent by out of staters at bars, motels,gas stations and the 4% or 5% sales tax that the state gets from these sales, pales in comparison and doesnt even start to rival state incomes from minerals, agriculture, oil, gas, and property taxes.

You have to be some inbred virginia buttfuck, to even believe that wolves some how make things wilder. If you want things wilder beeman,why don't you and all your fellow east coast dipshits,stop building subdivisions and golf courses in the middle of wyomings big game habitat. You summed it up well beeman,you spend a load of money in wyoming saloons,just like the majority of nonresident fuckin' drunks that spend hunting season that way.

All your nonresident fee's do beeman,is further fund an overgrown administration that doesn't do anything for wildlife,but does manage to build some high end office buildings and buy new vehicles evey year wether needed or not.


There aren't any secrets about the wolf,it wasn't worth a shit 100 years ago and it isn't worth a shit in 2003. The wolf was reintroduced for one reason,to reduce and eventually eliminate the need for sport hunting as a management tool. The same assholes that pushed for this abortion called wolf introduction,also pushed for the elimination of the timber industry in the west(afterall you can't have forest fires without timber),they want agriculture to cease in the western states,all so they can get some warm fuzzy feeling that they are actually making the place just like lewis and clark saw it.

The canadians that were enlisted to help the usfws in reintroducing wolves, told the goverment that they were idiots for reintroducing wolves and these people live around wolves day in and day out. Wolves are doing the same things today,that got them killed off in the first place. The only differance is,today we have a fraction of the open spaces we had then and ten times more laws restricting our fredoms to dispose of the problem and correct it. The game departments love the wolf,because it gives them one more out in their piss poor game management tactics.

"Amen Brother" AAAAAmen!

[ 07-13-2003, 17:54: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

RMK, most of the folks I have met in Wyoming have been pretty nice. But, every so often, one runs acrost a inbred, stupid, drooler like you. Kinda like flys and gnats, minor irritations that you try to ignore.