Russell E. Taylor

If the ability to by the program in pieces makes you happy, thats great. But it still doesn't tell me what features that the COMPLETE version of Accu-load has the QuickLoad does not. Thus far all the features mentioned are also a part of QuickLoad except the free upgrades.

Pecos45:
Thanks and I will check it out. And yes I already own a copy of QuickLoad, but if there is a better product out there I would be willing to give it a try.

I already have Quickload and like it. I haven't figured out everything it will do but I'm disappointed in the lack of some European powders and bullets. Does the Accuload have a better selection?

Dr. Duc,
We have all of the ADI powders from Australia, Vectan, Norma and Vhita Vuori from Europe. These are in both AccuLoad and CalcuLoader for load calculations. We are working on the "Rex" Hungarian powders and trying to get data on RWS. As for bullets, version 1 has over 3,000 and version 2 over 4,000. Besides the ones you expect like Nosler, Speer, Hornady, Sierra, etc., we have Woodleigh, S&B, GS Custom, Lapua, etc. We have data enroute to us on several other lines of European bullets, even some plastic-covered powdered lead pistol bullets that I'm really looking forward to trying out. I have a very nice friend in Belgium that's working in overdrive gathering this data for us. We have references in our files that includes DEVA Wiederladen, Nobel Wiederladen, Vectan, Vhita Vuori and Lapua reloading manuals as well as several of the older Norma "Gun Bugs". We have submitted a request to SomChem powders in South Africa and their reloading manual is enroute and the request for their powder data is in their production department, thanks to their Theuns Pool. By the way, SomChem says that their reloading data will be on the Internet in August of this year. We're looking forward to that, too.
As you can see, we don't have everything...yet. We are trying, though!
Regards,
Ed

Man! That sounds like a great program! Should I buy it now or wait for the II edition?

Dr. Duc,
That would be up to you. If you purchase now you get AccuLoad V1 and CalcuLoader V1.5 as a single purchase. The upgrade to AccuLoad V2 is free and incorporates CalcuLoader into it as a single product. The S&H on the "free" V2 upgrade is less than $7.00. I haven't heard from our programmer since Friday morning and that usually means he's in seclusion with beef jerky and Mexican beer working against the clock trying to get V2 into beta. I'm still very hopeful about starting the V2 beta test this week. So it could be six to eight weeks before V2 is in our customers hands.
Regards,
Ed

Good morning,

Well, the good news is that our programmer ran out of salsa and beer, so the first copy of version 2 beta is now in my hands! I'll chase it around for a day or two and then have the beta CD's burned and distributed for testing. With any luck at all, it will be mailed to our testers before the end of the week.

Pecos45 - the suggestions you made concerning CalcuLoader have been implemented and are also in my hands as version 1.53. Please email me your postal address and I will have a copy of it mailed to you tomorrow morning. We'd appreciate it if you would look it over to make sure that the changes we made accurately reflect what you asked for before we release it.
Regards,
Ed

Russel E. Taylor,
I got an answer back from our programmer and it was as I thought, but wasn't sure enough to post a reply to your question. Here goes...When you enter the cartridge data, such as case length, bullet length, bullet diameter and overall cartridge length, the data is applied to a formula and used with barrel length to determine the length of the combustion chamber. Bullet diameter determines the diameter of the expansion chambers extension after firing. With case capacity to the case mouth in grains of water, CalcuLoader compensates for the bullet seating depth, converts the volume of the expansion chamber to accomodate various powders and load densities to determine the charge weight, velocity, etc. So, it doesn't matter to the formula if it's a bottle neck or straight wall case. It has the capacity of the case to the base of the bullet and the load density and the area it can expand into over time.

If this is not sufficient information or even clear, let me know and I will forward your email address to our programmer for a more, in-depth answer.
Regards,
Ed

Hockeypuck, in other words you're saying we can have a chamber that looks like a corkscrew and Accuload will figure loads, velocity and pressure for it? (So long as we enter the right numbers.)
This is a beautiful thing.

[ 07-09-2002, 22:49: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Pecos 45,

Well, a corkscrew is one of those "pushing the envelope" things! I personally prefer the "coke-bottle" image!

Seriously, though, as far as I know, there's no piece of software that can predict a rough chamber, tight neck, or a 243 that doesn't want to play right. You can throw into that mix a narrow leade, over-sized chamber, bad headspace and many other aspects that make each firearm different. Software programs work on a formula that takes into account some constants and varibles that act according to specific parameters and rules. If, for example, you're using a W-W case and weigh it, then fill it to the case mouth with water and weigh it again, you can easily come up with the water capacity of that particular case. A case from a different W-W lot may be different. A case from a different manufacturer may be different. The amount of sediment remaining in the case after polishing could be different, etc. The ability of the case material to expand can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer. So, capacity is usually an average of many cases and manufacturers. Seating the bullet removes some of the capacity and what's left is what you work with.

You can measure your face off for barrel length, but velocities will be different if the bullet jump is different. I won't go further with these examples that you're well aware of, but just wish to make the point that calculated values are just that: best guess, with as many variables removed as possible. Nothing and no one is perfect, except maybe Martha Stewart.

The rest of us can only try.
Regards,
Ed

Ed, I just checked out the new Version 2.0 listings of powders, bullets and cartridges on your website FAQ. VERY IMPRESSIVE! Do you guys ever sleep?

Ed, by the way, will your software help us FIND Martha Stewart? It seems someone has "misplaced her."

I bought Calculoader the other day after reading the positive reviews on this thread and am not as enthusiastic as the rest of you. Being a cautious reloader, I always start a few grains light and work up to a maximum load in all my rifles.

I have found the projections that I'm getting with Calculoader are not at all in keeping with published loading data or my experience. The program is calculating starting loads that are well over maximum in my rifles and, the maximum loads would be just plain dangerous. Additionally, the program is calculating velocities that are considerable lower than what would be expected with a given charge.

For example, I inputted a plain vanilla 30-06 with a 150 grain Hornady Spire Point loaded to an overall length of 3.224". (bullet length is 1.09", barrel 24"). Calculoader suggests a starting load of 53.6 grains of RL15 and a max load of 59.5 grains. Hornady Manual fifth edition lists a starting load of 44.5 grains of RL15 and a maximum load of 51.7 grains of the same powder. Calculoader's starting load is almost two grains over Hornady's maximum load! The maximum load of 59.5 grains of RL15 is just plain dangerous.

Same thing with Varget. Calculoader lists a 51.4 starting load with 57.1 as a maximum. Hornady lists 51.6 as maximum. Hornady projects a velocity of 2900 fps with 51.6 grains. Calculoader shows 2910 fps with 57.1 grains and pressures of 46,100 CUP. Hogwash!

I don't feel that the formula used by Calcuload is at all accurate and I would hesitate to put much faith in (or my face behind) the loads calculated. In all fairness, it is a neat little program but, to be relied upon... I don't think so.

Another problem (at least for me) is the choice of powders. In my neck of the woods most guys use the IMR, Alliant, WW, or Hodgdon powders (�cause that�s what we can buy over the counter). Accurate, Vihtavouri, Vectan, and ADI powders are listed in over 50% of the loads which, at least for me, is a waste of data base space.

I really think these guys are on the right track but a lot remains to be done before this program is perfected.

RICKMD, I got my copy yesterday. I'll back your comments. I am not impressed with what I found on the 338-06 or 7mm RM.I don't understand why they want you to back of 10% from the starting loads either,if they are safe loads.

RickMD,

For example, I inputted a plain vanilla 30-06 with a 150 grain Hornady Spire Point loaded to an overall length of 3.224". (bullet length is 1.09", barrel 24"). Calculoader suggests a starting load of 53.6 grains of RL15 and a max load of 59.5 grains. Hornady Manual fifth edition lists a starting load of 44.5 grains of RL15 and a maximum load of 51.7 grains of the same powder. Calculoader's starting load is almost two grains over Hornady's maximum load! The maximum load of 59.5 grains of RL15 is just plain dangerous.
Same thing with Varget. Calculoader lists a 51.4 starting load with 57.1 as a maximum. Hornady lists 51.6 as maximum. Hornady projects a velocity of 2900 fps with 51.6 grains. Calculoader shows 2910 fps with 57.1 grains and pressures of 46,100 CUP. Hogwash!
[/QUOTE]

I can't tend to defend anybody. But reloading manuals from bullet maker firms are all the time under regarding starting and max loads. I have the same thing (problems) with the Speer manual.

I have some reloading manuals and the hottest I have is the Lyman Reloading Handbook.

I have checked in my A2 manual for the 30-06 54 gr of RL 15 give you 2984 and a pressure of 58100 PSI with a 24" barrel.

I suggest you to check Lee reloading manual I guess the max load is hotter than Accuload (about 4 grains if my memory is good).

For all of my loads I'm under the hottest load I have found for the caliber.

Develop your own loads on checking 2-3 different reloading manuals.

Some powders are like trying to hit a moving target.

I have used the Powley formula for decades and it works very well. It's free on the net now.

For every powder that you get and then overload is just one more risk. I have had real problems with only two. Those were Ball C (Hogdon) and AA 2015. The data was wrong or the powder was not made to the data. Either way it was a overload.

I do want a internal formula however that has more than Powley. Which one is our dilema.

Your memory must not be too good BER007. Lyman lists a maximum load of 54.0 grains of RL-15. You are correct that that particular load is the most aggressive of any of the reloading manuals. In other words, Calculoader's suggested starting load is only .4 grains under the most aggressive maximum given in reasonable reloading manuals. I say reasonable because the Lee Manual is nothing but a plagiarized compilation of loads from other miscellaneous sources and loads were never tested by Lee at all.

Assume that I take your advice and "work-up" my loads from several manuals. I have done that for 30 years and have found that 54.0 grains of RL-15 loosens primer pockets in all 5 of my 30-06's.

A simple question. If I should "work-up" from manuals, what the hell do I need Calculoader for? Any program that exceeds all published sources by 10% is, in my opinion, a waste of time and money as well as dangerous.

I just calculated a load (with Calculoader) for my .416 Taylor. 79.5 grains of 4320 behind a 400 grain bullet was their recommended maximum.. 72.0 with a 400 grain bullet is maximum in my rifle and, according to Ken Waters in his book "Pet Loads", 73.0 grains was over maximum in his rifle.

Sorry, but powder must burn miraculously slower on your side of the pond.

In the list of cartridges I don't find the 6 mm Rem International nor the 7 mm WSM! There is a 6 mm Int Impr but that's NG for me.

Also the 7mm-.300 WSM listed is not the 7mm WSM. The cartridges are not the same!

I am sticking with the Powley formulas. All this computing can't even make a hole in a piece of paper.

Savage,
I have been unable to find load data for the 6mm Rem International or the 7mm WSM anywhere, including the newest Speer.
Maybe if you email the aement guys they will find the info and include it.

Following this its great/its dangerous opinion poll has been interesting. I talked with Ed at AEM and Calculoader is based on powley's formula. I was also told that it has no fudge factor like the newer reloading books, (my words). Ed also told me that the formula would be softened so that people would not be shocked by the numbers. They seem to want to get a great product out that is still a valuable tool. Time will tell.

Gee guys, I wondered when the complaints would start and I must admit I find some of them pretty intersting! I was real impressed by the fellow who complains Calculoader has TOO MANY POWDERS. What's next? Too many bullets? Too many cartridges?

Oh, and some of the loading data is too hot? Normally the complaint on this website is the data is too conservative?

Anyway, I agree. SOME of the data was calculating hot. I contacted AEM about this issue as well and was told they are currently running the numbers on over 1,000 cartridges to check on this issue and indeed they HAVE found some instances where two or three powders were being processed wrong.

OK. Let's FIX IT. At AEM we've got some super talented fellows working as hard as they humanly can...LISTENING TO US...and trying their best to respond as fast as possible to our every whim.
Keep in mind there are only 3 of them, unlike Microsoft who can throw 10,000 programers on any problem they like.

In short, with Accuload we've got a good company with a hell of a product who is willing to WORK WITH US and build this into truly the ULTIMATE reloading software.

I say we need to work WITH the good fellows at AEM instead of getting on here and pissing and moaning because it's got a couple of powders listed we don't use or we can't find our beloved 800 Nitro Magnum listed in the database. If you have a question or problem, CONTACT AEM. They WANT to fix something if it's not working right! If your favorite cartridge isn't listed, let them know and they will get it listed or tell you how you can enter it yourself. It ain't that big a deal, my friends!

There isn't a company out there that has a program with half the capabilities of Accuload nor a company more willing to help and work with us. We've got everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[ 07-15-2002, 22:53: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

The fact that some data in the subject program is hot is not a new thing for any source. Reloader 15 is a topic here in the 30/06 and I have read that powder has varied.

I have seen data wrong on other powders where the load was too hot also. The Barnes manual #3 is the goat of the year so far.

I expect that the program has the ablity to use the water capacity of the cartridges that I complained about and would be able to offer other powders than just imr's for internal data.

So as a winter toy I will be looking at it. Right now the waters warm here and there is lots to do.

To all,
The problems that have been reported with maximum loads and velocities has been overhauled and version 1.6 of CalcuLoader will be mailed out to all CalcuLoader customers tomorrow morning. It will also contain the AccuLoad version 2 cartridge database. If you spot anything we missed, or have suggestions, please contact us. We do listen.
We appreciate the information that allowed us to make a better product and hope that any who find such problems report them to those that can make the corrections. This applies to our products, your car or your toaster. For those who offered words of such understanding and support, we thank you. They were deeply appreciated.
I do not have reliable dimensions on the 6mm International and SAAMI has not sent me the update with the 7mm WSM dimensions. If anyone has these cartridges and wants them in version 2, please send me a fireformed and full length resized case and I will make every effort to include it in AccuLoad before version 2 is released. The same offer is open to anyone with a pet cartridge that we have missed. ECRA alone has over 3,000 cartridges in their database; we only have 1,074 at last count.
Regards,
Ed

The following is an email that I sent to the folks at AEM moments ago.

Dear Ed:

I just received the version 1.6 upgrade to CalcuLoader. The adjustment to the algorithm along with the added features is nothing short of a dazzling improvement. I have compared my extensive load data history with CalcuLoader and find the velocities projected by the new version to be incredibly similar to the outcomes I have chronographed over the years. Maximum loads calculated by the program are practically identical with those that I have worked up to by trial and error! I would have saved hundreds of pounds of powder and bullets if I had had this program years ago.

Your addressing these changes in a matter of a few days is more than admirable. What service! You've made me into a believer. I hope you'll forgive me for my past criticism. Please advise what I owe you to upgrade to AccuLoad 2.0.

Sincerely,

Rick

RickMD:

I rarely have cause to praise anyone for anything. However... I think it took balls to go out of your way to trash the program in the manner you did AND THEN come back and go out of your way again to make amends and set things right -- presumably out of conviction both times. Bravo.

Thanks for the update. I should have my corrected copy soon.

Russ

RickMD - I would have to respectfully disagree with Russell here that you went "out of your way to trash.........." First, there would have been nothing for the guys at AEM to FIX if your concerns had been bogus. Frankly, I had raised this hot loading question and a couple of others about the program a couple of weeks before you which resulted in an immediate revision...but not enough in some instances...which YOU caught and now hopefully these problems in Calculoader have been totally vanquished.

One of the reasons I began this thread at Post #1 was my great admiration and respect for the way the fellows at AEM do business and have treated me. I really do believe that they are producing the Ultimate Reloading Software with Accuload. Do I believe it is perfect now? No. Do THEY believe it is perfect now? No. As I think I said in my initial post, this has been an ON GOING labor of love by these fellows for some four years now! Accuload is NOT a static program. Rather it is growing and changing right before our eyes. And WHO is better to HELP it grow and develop than you and me and Russell and all the rest of the guys who love hunting and reloading?

Ed (at AEM) told me they put EVERY suggestion into a folder and discuss and deal with each one as rapidly as they can. EVERY suggestion is important to them. Even mine.

The thing is there are only three of them and this program is already ENORMOUS. And with computer programming, sometimes you can't just go in and change one little thing or you can create an avalanche of problems. Sometimes "simple" little changes require MASSIVE amounts of delicate labor. We've got to all keep this in mind and as I've suggested, work WITH Ed and his merry band. I'm totally convinced they are running just as fast and hard as they can.

Perfection is a goal, my friend, and with OUR help, maybe the Accuload can get there.

By the way, I see you are going ahead and ordering Accuload (the full program) I think it will blow you away! You're going to love the ballistics engine. It's a regular cafeteria of nifty features.

Pecos 45