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LARAMIE – A Centennial man who was cited for his dogs killing two mule deer fawns has received heavy fines totaling more than $8,000 by Albany County Circuit Court Judge Robert Castor. Castor assessed Lyle Barrett of Centennial $4,000 each in restitution to the State of Wyoming for the two deer plus $120 in fines following his citation for two of his dogs killing two fawns on June 12. Centennial is a rural community 30 miles west of Laramie at the foot of the Snowy Range area of the Medicine Bow National Forest. Laramie Game Warden Bill Haley investigated a report from a neighbor who said he had heard what sounded like an animal in distress. While investigating the area of the disturbance, Haley came across two large dogs that were guarding two recently killed fawns. Haley said the fawns were no more than a few days old and he could see the bite marks on the fawns. It appeared the dogs had started to eat one of the fawns. Haley recognized the dogs as belonging to Barrett as he had given Barrett a warning six months earlier in January following a report of his dogs chasing deer. At that time, Barrett said snow had drifted into his yard and allowed the dogs to get out of his fenced area. “Judge Castor is to be commended for his concern for Wyoming’s wildlife resource,” Haley said. “People in the area enjoy wildlife and this is a needless waste of two mule deer.” Wyoming statute specifically prohibits harassment or killing of big game animals by dogs. Pet owners whose animals are chasing or harassing big game are subject to punishment under Wyoming law. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | ||
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One thing I remember from my trip to Newfoundland in 1996 was when we drove thru New Brunswick were signs stating that free ranging dogs would be shot and if the owners were found they would be fined. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Those poachin ass dogs got off with a slap on the paw, too bad they didn't drag the fawns across state lines so the feds could have rained down some real justice.  | |||
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Sorry Tony, I was going to mention something about seeing how long it would take the side show performers to show up. Thanks for posting the article anyway. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I do what I can.  | |||
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This is ridiculous IMO. I have dogs and despite how you try to contain them, they get out once in a while. If snow drifts allowed the dogs to get out, they shouldn't have fined the owner. It sounds like he made an honest effort to keep them contained. I've had many dogs and it's in their nature to kill wild animals. Some of the best dogs I've owned would kill rabbits or whatever other small animals they could catch, yet they wouldn't even growl at a human. What a joke. Reloader | |||
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There are many places around the U.S. that do not see dogs running loose as a joke. The owner did not do everything possible to keep the dogs contained, had he, the dogs would not have gotten out. Besides, if you will go back and re-read the OP, you will notice two items. Item 1:
Item 2:
The incident where the dogs killed the deer took place in the Summer, no snow, and the owner had 6 months to build enclosures that would contain the dogs and he did not do it. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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>>Haley recognized the dogs as belonging to Barrett as he had given Barrett a warning six months earlier in January following a report of his dogs chasing deer. At that time, Barrett said snow had drifted into his yard and allowed the dogs to get out of his fenced area.<< Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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I am surprised they were not shot on sight. Many times Game Wardens look down upon this type of behavior and shoot first. | |||
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Just shoot them. Once they chase deer, especially once they taste the blood, there is no stopping them in the future. Utah has a "kill on site authority" for dog-wildlife harassment. Just like dogs which kill our livestock. If you don't kill the dog then you will have a second chance when he returns. | |||
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CrazyH---I see Frick showed up and probably posted a dousy or two similar to the other thread. I wonder what the he** happened to Frack as he hasn't chimed in yet, LOL! | |||
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Hopefully this one won't end up in the ARPF. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Boom Boom. No more deer killing dogs. Simple solution. Perry | |||
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People should control their dogs, if they don't, then they have no room to bitch about what happens to them or their dogs (within legalities of course). | |||
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I guess they should start charging those responsible for the wolf reintroduction for killing game? What a freaking joke. Deer fawns are constantly killed by coyotes. This is ridiculous. For those of you who say you'd shoot the dogs, tread carefully. It is highly illegal to shoot dogs in nearly every state. I once had a game warden tell me it was a Federal crime, but I didn't research to see if it actually was. If someone shot one of my dogs, regardless of the reason, it would be as if they shot a close family member. If I was present, they better be a damn good shot after they shot the dog. Reloader | |||
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Your were told wrong, it is not a Federal crime. Also, I seriously doubt that you would do anything if a LEO shot one of your dogs if it had been caught in the act of killing someones livestock or a deer. This is one where I agree with 505. Dogs are pets or work animals and as such should be kept under control at all times. The rest of North America does not run by what may be legal(?) in Louisiana. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I'll look into it and see about the Federal part just to clear that up. He's always been a pretty sharp fella, but like I said, I didn't research it. I do know that it is illegal to shoot them here in my home state as well as many others. And you are wrong about the LEO, it would be sad for both parties. You have to understand dogs are like family to many people, they are not just pets or working animals. I highly take offense to someone shooting a pet unless they are endangering the life of a human. Reloader | |||
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I have 2 dogs that are a "part of my family" as well, fortunately I realize that THEY ARE NOT HUMAN, and are not worth a human life. People who state that they would kill another human because that person killed their dog, are derranged. | |||
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I have probably had pet dogs and cats as long as you have or close to it. Dogs are not supposed to be out running loose over the country side, killing stock or wildlife and many states and provinces have laws governing such matters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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505, I did not say or infere that I would kill another human. I simply stated they better be a damn good shot meaning they are probably going to want to shoot me before I get my hands on them  "regardless of the reason" was stated too loosely I admit. If it were an endangerment to their life, that's a different story. My dogs are small, so I doubt they'd be endangering ones life. Crazyhorse, I found that it is considered animal cruelty and is illegal in all but 4 states. If you find differently, please share. I'd like to know for curiosity sake. I'll ask the GW I spoke of the next time I see him as well. He did tell me that cats didn't fall under those laws. The reason I asked him was that we had a pack of wild stray dogs on our property that killed our dog and we found evidence that they were killing fawns as well. I wanted to know the laws on shooting them. These were not pets, they were wild as coyotes. He told me it was against the law to kill them even if they were not pets. Have a good one, Reloader | |||
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I have Bear Dogs.They also run Coons,Cats and Coyotes.We are allowed to run them on Public land to train for bear season.You shoot a dog just because you see it running in the woods in Wi.you can wind up in jail.Some dipsticks are looking for any reason to shoot and will lie saying they were chasing Deer.Better be damn sure you know what is happening before you get trigger happy.These Dogs can be worth $10,000 and you will make restitution if you screw up. | |||
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Olbiker, I know what you mean. We used to have hog dogs and it was ridiculous how much some of them were worth if they bayed well. I know what you mean on the shooting as well. There are a bunch of rednecks around here that shoot dogs just to kill them. Luckily our state has laws on such. | |||
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Everyone get their panties in a wad. I ain't talking about people just shooting dogs for the hell of it. Please pay attention, the subject is about dogs, pets-working dogs-feral dogs killing livestock and wildlife, PERIOD. Those animals can be shot, no federal offence involved. Not one word was said about anyone just going out in the woods shooting dogs running around, Ol Biker are you out there with your dogs or do you just drive them several miles from your home and turn them loose to do their own thing I doubt it very seriously especially if they are worth 10K apiece. This is another one of those discussions where people are not taking time to read the OP and get the parameters of what the subject is, they just want to jump in with something that has no relevance to the discussion. Yes,It Is Illegal For A Person To Just Walk Out And Shoot A dog That Is just Walking Down The Road. No, It Is NOT Illegal For A Landowner Or Their Agent, Or An LEO, Finding Dogs Killing OR Harrassing Wildlife Or Livestock To Shoot Such Animls. In The Case Of Pet Dogs Being Allowed To Run Loose By Their Owners There Is Also The Real Possibility That Said Owner Will Get Fined Or Have To Pay Restitution On The Stock Injured Or Killed. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse, It is illegal to shoot them for harassing wildlife in most states, but many states do have laws pertaining to livestock. A couple deer fawns is a far cry from someones cows or horses. I fully agree a dog owner should pay for damage to livestock. I still disagree about a dog owner having to pay for damage to wildlife. Would it be any different than someone's cat stalking and killing turtle doves at a bird feeder? Happens all the time, but the Feds don't show up and take everyone to court for such. It's no different in my eyes. The OP still doesn't give enough details. It does not state if the owner was indeed trying to contain the dogs. It does mention the part about the warning when the dogs got out in the winter. I feel a small fine would have been fine for the dogs being loose if it was indeed against the law, but huge fines for killing fawns is a joke. I've owned many dogs and I don't care what anyone says, they sometimes get out no matter how hard you try. Have a good one, Reloader | |||
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I've owned numerous hunting dogs. None worth 10K but even with their modest worth, they were kept in escape proof pens. With locks. Because you also have the problem of folks that will "borrow" a hunting dog right before the season. IMO, a "bear" dog, even if it's supposed to be worth 10K, that also runs coons, coyotes, cats, deer, etc, is called a "trash runner" where I come from and if they can't be broke onto the right game, they're subject to being shot by their owners. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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The Dogs are not "Just Mine"I belong to a Cat and Coon Club.The Members own the dogs,and yes we use them in competition and have a Stud worth much more than $10,000.00.We paid much more for him as a Pup. We train them with Radio & GPS Collars on.We release them on Bear tracks on dirt roads that have been groomed.When they are on a Bear (You can tell by their Baying)we go into the Brush to retrieve them from the Tree`d Bear.Guess what The Dogs don`t chase Deer,but if Deer are there they are going to bail out.Yes we have had assholes shoot at our Dogs and kill one.Yes they got caught,paid restitution and got charged with a Felony.You can not kill a Dog in Wi.even if it does run Deer.We have more of problem with the fuggin Wolves killing our Hounds and yes The State does pay us restitution for Wolfe kills. | |||
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CrazyH---This is another thread just like you said where people are getting carried away and making all kind of accusations over and above what the OP stated. That guy was warned and didn't keep his dogs under control. End of story and he deserved whatever the law dished out and anybody that says different should probably look at how they take care of their animals so it doesn't happen to them. We had tops on our kennels when I was a kid to keep our coonhounds and beagles where they belonged at all times when we weren't out there controlling them. As far as the law goes, it varies amongst the states as to who, where, and when a dog can be shot and there is no federal crime involved in what we are talking about for the most part. We killed more than a couple down in the middle of the big leases we had in south Texas that came by running deer. It was too bad because the owner(s) should have been shot for letting them run loose since the dogs were only doing what they had to to survive!!! I'm an animal lover on top of being a hunter, but my pointer won't even bark unless he's yipping in his sleep and won't bother anyone, especially running on other people's property. This is another one of those deals where a lot of people want to blame everyone but themselves for something that happened that was completely under their control and they failed miserably! | |||
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I think that the original post brings up the discussion of whether or not what was levied is just, and then others have expounded further on what they think is a more appropriate punishment (killing the dogs) and that is what has gotten it spun, because many people like their dogs. I don't think the fines are proportional to the crime, they are wildlife, yes they were baby deer and cute but dogs are animals too and didn't do anything another predatory animal wouldn't have done. I can see fining the guy for his dogs being out, based on reasonable belief that they obviously could be a danger to livestock and maybe even people. Fine. But to fine him 4k each for the deer? Really? What's the value of the deer to the state? were they deer that would be hunted eventually? There's some math that would have to be done, i.e. (to keep it simple I'll use small easy numbers) 1000 deer may be taken in a season, 5000 tags are issued at $35 each means each deer would bring in to the state $175 in revenue. I don't know the real numbers for that area but I don't think you could get to $4k per deer, plus you'd then have to explain to me a reasonable belief that they would have survived to an age that they'd be legal game. I'm not trying to be a lawyer here, just trying to get people to think about putting value on an animal that is closer to it's actual worth. Dogs do what other animals do, they chase things. Summary of my opinion regarding OP, fines for violation of law for having them lose I agree, 4k for each deer I don't, if it were a reasonable and calculated amount I'd say ok. The way it was done they're being punitive without, in my opinion, sufficient reason. it's not like he sicked his dogs on them. granted there are some assholes with dogs, but there are also good people that have dogs that get out and don't want their dogs killing animals any more than anybody else wants them to. To the posters that think it would have been good to shoot the dogs, because it did what a dog does? then where is the line drawn on what animals they may and may not kill without being shot? squirrels, ducks? my black lab managed to catch a bird in my yard the other day, I was happy for her and glad because the little bastards eat my fruit. what if she happened to catch a bird on public land though, shoot her? Are deer more important for some reason than dogs? Other than meet and pretty pictures what do they bring to the table? do they protect property and family? I think it is a difficult call and hard to say when it is right to kill the dog or not. My grandparents danes went overboard "playing" and killed my mom's weiner dog, tore it to shreds. my grandpa shot both dogs. I was a toddler at the time and they had other dogs and he felt it was too much risk that they may have enjoyed it. I think circumstances matter, saying just shoot any dog that chases or kills wild game is a bad idea. I also have to be honest that my feelings on dogs worth versus humans are mixed. I don't assign intrinsic value to humans, as some people do. babys, kids of course, they are the most valuable and have endless potential. But adults, there are many adults that if anything have a negative impact on our society as a whole and therefore negative value. I have known people that I definitely would put a rung below my dogs. Maybe I'm horrible or too cynical, doesn't change my opinion though. for the most part dogs love to make people happy, and unless somebody has messed with them they aren't vicious and mean. Same can't be said for humans. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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Well said.Totally agree!!!!  | |||
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Well said Red. | |||
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The dogs have no business being in the woods or anywhere else unsupervised, don't care what state it is. As I said earlier Ol'Biker, I seriously doubt you or your buddies just turn your dogs loose to run the country side until they get ready to come home, Which Has Nothing What So Ever To Do With Dogs Allowed To Run Free. Not one person has said anything about indiscrimantly shooting dogs, it has all been directed at dogs killing wildlife or livestock. As for your comment about the cats, I love cats,but any cat I find out in the pasture where there is no house close by, unless that cat is wearing a collar or harness showing that it is a pet, it is dead, real simple, it ain't supposed to be there and it ain't eating turtle doves it is eating bob whites and at this point in time bob whites are more important than a cat. Deer are more important that any unsupervised dog, they are just like coyotes and should be treated the same way. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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You are right.Our Hounds are far from being unsupervised.My whole point was this.A lot of people do not know what hounds are doing running through the woods and assume they are running Deer.They are ignorant folks who use that as an excuse to mess with Hunting Dogs and they do.I am trying to point out every time you see dogs in the woods or swamps,Does not mean they are running deer.I mean when you see a Dog with a Orange Beeping Collar something should go off in the old bean box and say do not shoot!!!!! If a Dog is attacking you,your family,your livestock then go ahead and take care of business. | |||
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CH, When we hunt with our dogs they sometimes get away from us chasing game and we may not find them until the next day even if they have tracking units on. A man would get jail time for shooting them. I guess the next time my neighbors cat kills a bird I should call the DWF. They'll probably laugh You are lucky to still have quail. The vermin have pretty much eliminated them here. Have fun while they are still around. Have a good one, Reloader | |||
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Here is a link which gives an idea of dog restrictions. It is not complete, but gives you an idea. www.animallaw.info/articles/ar...asewildlifetable.htm The problem with these threads is that we read them in our own state while they were written in another. Completely different circumstances and people become offended without realizing the world is different when you are in a different place. For example, dogs are used to run deer in the South, which is part of their heritage. Fine by me. Dogs are not allowed in my state to take big game ungulates- not even to track wounded animals. Then we get the guys who compare whitetails to mule deer. Many whitetail hunters have no idea how mule deer are struggling and comparing the hunting and management of those species is like comparing apples and potatoes. Looks like Minn is trending this way-- http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/...ogs-that-chase-deer/ | |||
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MC's post is a good one. Reloader I am sure you are familiar with the laws in your area,but I know if I was a landowner even in Louisiana, and stepped out and your dogs or anyone else's were in my back yard killing my chickens or any other livestock I owned or I came up on them kiling a deer, here in Texas, and it ain't the only place, we have an old tradition called the 3 S's. ShootShovel-Shut-up. I have no problem with folks hunting anything with dogs as long as it is legal where they are doing it, it just is not my thing except for quail. With that said, the point remains, the OP concerned dogs in Wyoming, my response was that in 1996 while traveling thru New Brunswick Canada, signs were posted stating that free ranging dogs would be shot on site. Canadian Provinces are not subject to American Laws. Wyoming and other states have laws in place concerning free ranging dogs harassing/killing, livestock/wildlife, that are not affected by federal law. The federal law was instituted to keep people from just shooting dogs indiscriminantly that they saw "Running Loose". My wife and I had a neighbor shoot one of our cats, it was wearing a harness complete with tags, rode in the vehicle with us, we could not prove he shot it, and it ended up shortening the cats life. If I knew for certain that I was right about who did it, I would not shoot the guy, but I would beat the hell out of him. Dogs or cats that are pets or part of a family, are children by proxy. I can understand anyone being upst at the thought of a family member being shot. What I can not understand and can not abide is the concept, that some dog and cat owners feel that it is okay to just allow those animals to roam freely. That is pure irresponsibility, what happens if it gets run over? What if it runs afoul of a larger predator? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Good posts MC and CrazyH!!! | |||
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Dogs chasing livestock can be a big problem in some areas. I hunted on a deer lease ion Texas one time where they had cattle and sheep. The land owner had several very well trained cattle sheep dogs. He tole me to shoot ANY dog I saw chasing his livestock if a ranch hand was not around directing the dog. I told him I might not be able to tell a wild dog from one of his dogs. He then tole me 'I DO NOT CARE IF IT IS ONE OF MY DOGS, IF THEY GET OUT AND CHASE LIVESTOCK OR DEER SHOOT THEM TOO!  On a side note: One time 2 of his dogs got into a porcipine. They had quills all stuck in the inside of their mouth and face. The owners son brought them to our deer camp, gave them a shot putting them to sleep, so we cpu;ld pull out the quills, he knew I has a good Medical Kit. We did not work quite fast enough and at the end I got bit on the hand. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Issues like this concerning pets or working animals/dogs or cats touch emotions in people that vary in intensity. Most folks don't like the thought of shooting someone else's dog. I like cats but people normally don't place the same intrinsic value toward a cat that they do toward dogs. The issue, with the exception of actual feral dogs, should be emphasised more on the irresposibility of the animals owner(s), instead of the actions of the animal. I have a strong feeling that the fines that were assessed were addressing that part of the problem, the owner had already shown that he did not feel keeping his dogs containerised was that big a deal. Even with the snow, he could have/should have put the dogs in the house. If the man knew anything about the area he lived in and the wildlife in the area, he shoud have been aware that deer were dropping fawns. Coyotes/bobcats/raccoons/bears/lynx/wolves/mountain lions and eagles killing fawns is one thing. Domestic dogs being allowed to run loose and killing fawns is another issue. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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