The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Blackbear taken with 243Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Blackbear taken with 243 | Login/Join |
one of us |
Just wanted to do a quick update on how my friend did in New Brunswick. He and his girlfriend drove up from Columbus, OH and hunted for a week. He shot a 320 pound boar with his bow on day 2 (they have a scale now and weigh the bears at camp). Bear ran 45 yards. Arrow was perfectly placed with a low exit hole, yet no blood on the ground until the last 4 yards around the bear, then there was blood everywhere. His girlfriend shot a 400 pound bear with his 243 and the 95 grain Btips I loaded for him back in 2005 for our antelope hunt. Her shot was 18 yards. She double lunged the bear and the bullet exited. Her bear ran about 50-60 yards and she heard it moan. There was not one drop of blood that any of them could find to track the bear. As was related to me, the only reason they knew where it was, was due to her hearing the moan, and it just happen to run into a less dense area, where they spotted it when they were 25 yards away. After skinning, they found that the bullet exit hole was roughly the size of a nickel, yet the hair absorbed most of the blood. The guide told them, that had this been in dense cover, and no death moan, the bear would have been much more difficult to find. | ||
|
| one of us |
That has been my experience with the 6mm on most game, not just the bear, it sometimes fails to leave a blood trail...Good blood trails begin with the .284 bore and get better as the bore gets bigger, that doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, but its surprising how many have to learn this the hard way...  Guess I better add, self included, I also learned this the hard way in my misguided youth and an undeserved love of the then new and awesome 243 and 6 MM Remingtons, but learn I did...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
My apologies Ray but I can't resist. You just mentioned in another post about hunting mullies with a 25-35! Yeah I know, sagebrush and good visibility and all not to mention it simply being a very neat old round. For the record I'm no fan of small bores for hoofed game either and pretty much agree with you. Couldn't resist bust'n your balls a little though!  An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
|
one of us |
That's why I like big holes, lots of blood trail. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bears in that weight range have a few inches of self sealing fat. The hole probably never opened up until they were rolling on the ground. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I thought there was a caliber minimum up there. And if there isn't there ought to be. | |||
|
| one of us |
I perfer something a little bigger myself. But I seen bear hit by other calibers and not leave blood trail also. Depends on the shot and how much fat on them. I recommend a string tracker for bow hunter shots are close and the string is easy to follow. My daughter got agood blood trail with her 06 and a 189 gr hornaday took it rt through the heart and it was early season not a lot of fat. Lots of fat and long hair can back blood trails hard to get. | |||
|
One of Us |
I shot a 150lb hog at 90 yards with my old .243, as well as a large whitetail buck with the same .243, and both ran off never to be found. I no longer own a 6mm family rifle, no particular reason why I don't carry one anymore, besides me liking the .284-.338dia way of thinking. "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
|
| one of us |
Oupa, The 25-35 is a .257 caliber and it shoots a long for caliber 117 gr. bullet at 2300 FPS..At 100 yards it will leave a very good blood trail and it always makes two holes on deer and antelope and I don't hunt bear with it... Sometimes slowing bullets down is the best way to get two holes and a blood trail..A long bullet with good SD applies in this case..You just cannot compare the two..I also believe the 30-30 with its long slow 170 gr. bullet is a decent black bear caliber. I don't believe the 243 or 6 mm is.... A proper understanding of how these things work goes beyond the name of the round, sorry if I'm bust'en your balls, but my words are fact in this case.. I also know that the 25-35 is borderline on deer and antelope, but if used properly the bullets themselves will not fail, and the penetration is good enough for an exit hole..you just can't shoot'em too far away. I do hunt from time to time with my 6x45 and I really have had good luck with it, but I would not shoot a bear with it..Even on deer and antelope I will not hunt in anything but very open country because it will not leave a blood trail and I have said so many times on these forums.. Your post is misleading in that I do not advocate the 6mm OR 25-35 for bear, but used properly they can be a successful deer and antelope rounds, and yes, the 6mm has better trajectory and out ranges the heck out of a 25-35 or a bow for that matter, but at the ranges I shoot deer and antelope with the 25-35 I think the 25-35 kill is the better round...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
one of us |
Ray Atkinson wrote:
That falls exactly into my way of thinking and is why I really don't need any more horsepower than a Contender provides. My 26" MGM barrel in 6.5 BB Imp (aka 6.5x30-30AI) has a 1:8 twist and is throated for the long 140s. Using N160 powder, I get around 2600 fps and complete pass-throughs as the long, streamlined bullets penetrate exceptionally well. I've taken a number of hogs with it out to 250 yards, and the little 6.5 does a number on them every time. 6.5s/140s in various guises have accounted for probably close to 2/3 of all the hogs I have taken. I've used everything from the little TCU through the 6.5-06 but finally found the round with the perfect balance for my hunting needs in the 6.5 BB Imp.  The sow in the photo below was one of the 1st animals I shot with my 6.5 BB Imp. The Sierra 140 grain GameKing dropped her on the spot at app. 225 yards. It wrecked the vitals and took out the opposite-side shoulder before exiting.  Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
|
| One of Us |
The long, slender bullets and moderate velocity formula works great - my first black bear was with a 6.5x55 and 140gr partitions. It penetrated fully and left a fair sized exit wound. I was never left wanting more, even when I tried a .30-06 with 220's for short range. I'll take moderate velocity with a heavy-for-caliber bullet over a lighter bullet moving at mach 3 anyday! ________  "...And on the 8th day, God created beer so those crazy Canadians wouldn't take over the world..." | |||
|
| One of Us |
A 243 doee not leave much of an exit hole and a BT can leave less of an exit hole. And on fat bear a 243 BT would leave very little if any blood trail. I do not use any thing less than a .257 Roberts on deer and nothging less than a .30 caliber on bear. | |||
|
one of us |
I'd shoot a black bear with a .243 but I wouldn't do it with a Ballistic Tip. Nosler Partition or TSX would be fine. -+-+- "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - The Dalai Lama | |||
|
| One of Us |
I do not have the breadth of hunting experience that Mr. Atkinson offers, and yet based on simple physics those that promote bullets of high sectional density at reasonable velocities just have to win this argument. The oft claimed "what is the sectional density after the bullet strikes the animal" question raised by those that shoot conventional C&C low sectional density bullets always has me scratching my head in puzzlement. A .260 Remington with a 140 grain C&C at 2500 fps just has to outpenetrate a 200 grain .338 caliber C&C at 2500 fps. Then if you blast the same 200 grain 338 caliber bullet into flesh and bone at 3000 fps and it expands to .7 cal will it penetrate at all? Of course all of this depends on the game afoot, many times the 200 grain 338 C&C is "good enough" and does kill like the hammer of Thor, but then deer are one thing and a black bear has a bit more density. The copper bullets put it all off of whack and the .223 70 grain TSX with a SC of .2 would probably kill as well as a 6mm.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey Doc, Congratulations to your buddy. Glad to hear the results turned out the way they did. Pitiful selection of Cartridge and Bullet for Bears. The big problem I see with this is there are some folks who will actually think the 243Win and a B-Tip is now an "adequate" Bear Killer. | |||
|
| one of us |
I think you need to do some penetration tests, you may be surprised at the results. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think I'll be satisfied to trot around the 375 I'm having done up and give no further thought to the matter... until I get the itch and want another rifle. Oh boy... | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mr Ray, Again, I want to assure you I'm not trying to be nasty. Just a little fun. I have no qualms about your 25-35 for the purposes you use it. While I'm a fan of the big bullet at moderate velocity club, one of my own favorite calibers is the 6.5x55. For hoofed game though I insist on the 140gr. or larger bullets. There's tons of meat been taken with .243's, .223's and even .22 hornets not to mention that sweetheart of the poacher, the .22WMR. That said, day in and day out give me two big holes! Another plus for the big slow bulets is meat damage - less of it. With all the recent fuss about lead fragments in game meat the risk of such is greatly reduced when your bullet stays together and exists the animal. Ray, please accept my apologies. It was one of those things that gets a good laugh when everyone is sitting around the fire but the gist of it gets lost in a printed sentence. An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
|
| One of Us |
here is a huge .264 bullet test into wet newspaper. Explain to me how a a 200 grain standard cup and core bullet in 338 caliber traveling at 2700 will penetrate more than say the Lapua 156gr Mega posted here? http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...rch=true#Post2132854 | |||
|
| one of us |
I am just saying, do some testing for yourself, you may be surprised. I have tested a lot of rounds side by side, so I know the difference. Speaking from experience, not something I read or someone else did. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
For my money - and I'm not trying to convince anyone else - there are three criteria for a game bullet; Energy transfer, wound channel and penetration. To date there is NO reliable way to duplicate or predict exactly what happens when a bullet hits flesh and bone or the reaction of an animal to any particular hit. Sure if you destroy vital organs the animal will die, but some can take an amazingly long time to do it! To get to those organs you need penetration. To destroy them you have to transfer energy and TWO holes makes recovery of the animal twice as likely as with one hole. Much has been written and debated about "temporay wounds channels" over the years but so far there is no hard evidence such even exists. It is demonstrated with balistic gel and bruised meat but until someone can section a critter as a bullet passes through we'll never really know. Bears are killed with .243's. As well Polar bears have been killed with .22 hornets, moose with .22LR's and elephants with 7mm's. Because it can is no evidence that it's a good idea! There is no right answer to such debates. Give me a 25 and up for hoofed game and I'll save the sub-quarter bores for softer stuff. An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Please share the results of your testing. | |||
|
| one of us |
I did these tests many years ago, I did not keep the data, I found out what I need and used that to make my decision on what worked better for my personal needs. Like I said, instead of relying on others to show you, why not take the time and have the fun doing it yourself. You will be surprised to find out how bullet weight aids in penetration. But there is a lot of variables you need to consider when you are doing testing. Sorry did not keep the data I had, I wish I did. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| one of us |
Hard to see what there is here to criticize. A double-lunged bear shot with a .300 Weatherby or a .375 Ultramag would have likely acted the same way. When a rather frangible bullet penetrates 400 lbs of bear, you know that his insides have to be torn up pretty good. The kind of "blood trail" an animal leaves depends on where it's hit. Lung shots don't usually leave as much as heart shots, for obvious reasons. Congratulations to the girl friend for a great shot on a big bear! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't need to do the testing if others have done it, why reinvent the wheel I have not done any testing other than to put holes into stuff, I do know that a cup and core 50 grain .222 remington bullet will shoot thru a piece of 1/4 inch mild steel in a barbacue pit, my Dad kicked my but for that one 35 years ago.. I have shot tons of deer only two bullet problems in my whole life, I shot a doe at 135 yards with a 30 cal 180 grain round nose Rem coreloc thru the center of the chest and it did not kill her, we had to track and shoot again, and a 30 cal 165 ballistic silvertip went to pieces on a bucks rib cage at 20 yards, fortunatly enough fragments shredded the heart that he died after a while and we found him. I did read that a guy shot a deer at 15 yards with a 200 grain 338 bullet and it did not penetrate as it flattened out to the size of a 50 cent piece. Then there is the Swedish moose shooting study, read that there is not much difference between a 6.5 x 55 and a 338 WM in terms of results. | |||
|
| one of us |
Jimmy P Coaltrain, just by your last post, I think you can learn a lot by doing it yourself. The reason I say that, you do not have all the information about the 200 gr. 338 bullet that filed to penetrate. As what was the bullet construction, velocity. I read a lot of stuff in gun rags and on the Internet, but nothing and I mean nothing replaces actual hands on experience. For an example I had a 300 RUM and I was using a 180 gr. Barnes TSX bullets at 3000 fps and it blew through a 28 inch tree from 50 yards. That is why bullet construction has a lot to do with penetration, that is why it is better to do it yourself. That is why I believe half of what I read and everything I actually experience. Doing the work is all the fun of it.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| one of us |
All the technical arguments aside, a .243 doesn't make a very big hole and the 95 grain bullets, to me, are meant for varmints. Around here, that would constitute a legal big game cartridge. I once chased a whitetail around a thicket, trying to put more .243 holes in him. Took him surprisingly long to die. Bears have a thick hair coat and a layer of fat under the skin that makes them self sealing. Besides that, they like to live in country that makes tracking and body location very difficult. I hunted with an outfitter type around Ft Mac Murray, who had lost two arrow shot bears, the week before. They took off into the thick bush without leaving a blood trails. Seems like a hell of a waste to me.But then, this started out as a hunting story, not a cartridge analysis. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
|
| One of Us |
the biggest bear i ever got was with a 243 (7'2")i don't know what he wieghed but was guessing near 600lbs.his forearm skinned was 18" in circumference,his neck within 2 inches where you seperate the skull off the neck was 32" wasn't my first choice for bear,let alone giant bear,but it was what i had in my hands at the time.he died within view. last week i helped a friend who stuck a 7rum 175 grn poorly into a bear,i had to dig him out of an overgrown crick bottom.he wasn't 400lbs but a good 6'+ mature boar and still very alive when i found him,i think alot of lost bears could be recovered with a good dog and a large semi-auto pistol.worked for me. still a firm believer in "its WHERE you hit em" not "what you hit em with" | |||
|
| one of us |
I've only shot 3 bears but none of them left much of a blood trail. I suspect the thick hide and fur and fat are to blame. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I can't fight down the feeling that this discussion really comes back to that old, old phrase - bullet placement. Bobby Tomek has noted that he has used a variety of 6.5s with success. I, myself, have shot two black bears weighing in at approximately 225 and near 300 lbs with a 7x57, 154 gr. Hornady. Neither bear took even one step after the shot. The 7x57 is, of course, famed for its penetration and proved it in my two cases. I guess, what I want to say is that if there are guys confident enough to place the bullet, that I suppose a 243 will do the job. (I well remember when the 243 came out -and many of us were doubtful about it for white tails -having grown up on the belief that only a 30 cal. was sufficient. After I saw with my own "lying eyes", very dead WTs shot with a 243, I had to change my thinking. It does come back to "bullet placement" and if done right, the issue of a bullet "exit" hole becomes irrelevant. ( Frankly, in the case of shooting at black bear where the shot usually comes near dark, what difference does it make? The dogs will be needed anyway if the bear runs off. Just my thoughts) | |||
|
| one of us |
I did not say a 243 could not kill them, I just think it is a poor choice. Smaller holes fill with fat and leave no blood trail. I like big holes. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| one of us |
To those who are interested, I'm certain that the reason the 243 was used was b/c this was the lady's first hunt ever. It was a choice b/w the 243 and the 300 WM with 200 grain Aframes. My buddy is not one who entertains discussions on caliber adequacy. To him a 243 is a killing machine, and his girlfriend was able to shoot it well. They found the bear roughly 50 yards away, so in their eyes, everything was a "complete success." And, based on this outcome, he would argue (as would she), that the 243 is a perfect black bear rifle/caliber. FWIW, when we were in BC a couple of weeks ago, my partner shot his bear in the lung at less than 75 yards and it exited the offside shoulder, breaking the humerus and part of the scapula. 180 TSX with 47.5 gr. IMR4064 from his .06. That bear managed to run over 50 yards. I don't think they saw any blood either. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
|
| one of us |
I Washington state, where I have seen the most bears they are generally killed because they are making a nuisance of themselves. Some get pretty big too. The bear rifle most often used is a 30-30. I noticed when the 150-170 grain bullets did exit very little blood flowed unless it was a head/neck hit. The heighborhoods legendary bear gun was a model 95 mauser rebarreled to 444 Marlin. The guy who owned it said he rarely got exits with factory loads, just dead bears. Forgot to add, he drove a garbage truck and he had to take garbage cans away from bears regularly. The ones that left quickly were allowed to do so, those that made a show of it were summarily dusted. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
|
| One of Us |
This thread is useless without pics...  | |||
|
| one of us |
I do not have permission to post pictures on the internet of the hunter or his girlfriend. Sorry. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
|
| one of us |
Glad you added this. Even when using an Adequate Cartridge with an excellent Bullet, things don't always go as expected. That is the part where the - "it's all about placement" - folks still have a lot to learn, because it's NOT all about placement. That is not aimed at anyone in particular, simply saying the concept is  .Whoever it was that originally duped folks into believing that loonacy, is as Illiterate about Game animals physical structure, their routine/normal movements, wind effects, bad luck, scopes "hiding" weeds/sprigs, and both Internal and External Ballistics, as any fool walking the earth. Lots of Game will be lost and wounded simply because of that kind of pseudo-logic. But, they will learn "if" they spend enough time afield, because it will catch-up with them. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills with an Adequate Cartridge. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hot Core, it is about shot placement, a bad hit even with a large caliber is not good. Like I said, yea a 243 will kill a black bear, it was proven in this thread. But shot placement is everything, but with the right caliber. People are successful in hunting because they pick the right equipment and make good shots. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
A 243 works great if the shots a good one. My 11 year old son took this bear with a 222 rem at 120 yards. Its all about shot placement. this bear was a 400lb plus bear.  My son has a lot of confidence with this gun. It means more then using a gun to large and flinching and making a bad shot.Doug McMann www.skinnercreekhunts.com ph# 250-476-1288 Fax # 250-476-1288 PO Box 27 Tatlayoko Lake, BC Canada V0L 1W0 email skinnercreek@telus.net | |||
|
| One of Us |
Good thread. I don't know the first thing about bears or bear hunting. I have a 243, but after one deer, which was a fine, clean kill, only use it on ground hogs. Anything I am going to eat, other than squirrels, I start with the 25-06 and move up to the 458 Lott. I really have found that game really gives up the ghost consistently when you hit them at around 2700 fps with a conventional bullet. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I do not own a .243Win. Personally, I consider it a varmint cartridge. I am a large caliber, large bullet man myself. BUT the people that say the .243 or 6mm calibers are not adequate for big game are over-looking the ALWAYS CRITICAL FACT of SHOT PLACEMENT. The finest deer hunter in North America is named Bentley Coben, from Tessier Saskatchewan and he has used a pet BLR called "Bertha" in .243 for years on his BOONE & CROCKETT whitetails, mulies, elk etc... It is ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT, ADEQUATE BULLETS AND PROFICIENCY WITH THE FIREARM. The people involved in this hunt I believe were hunting over bait, which means close range shots, that are easy to accurately place etc... You guys need to give your head a shake and consider the facts of this hunt.  | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Blackbear taken with 243
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia